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Post by Snitsky on Apr 29, 2009 22:51:56 GMT -5
Another problem is many women feel like they should never push their boss for a better position, pay etc. . Eye candy is a dime a dozen any of those chicks try talking up and they will lose their position to the next chick who is willing to do/take anything to get a WWE contract/or push |
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Eli
Team Rocket
Mutha licka!
Posts: 974
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Post by Eli on Apr 29, 2009 22:59:34 GMT -5
Another problem is many women feel like they should never push their boss for a better position, pay etc. . Eye candy is a dime a dozen any of those chicks try talking up and they will lose their position to the next chick who is willing to do/take anything to get a WWE contract/or push Which is pretty stupid. You know, many jobs in the US these days with the economy are the same way. But too many women are afraid to be assertive and force their boss to recognize their talent, make a strong suggestion or ultimatum and try to see eye to eye. Maybe I'm just a born salesperson, but I can convince even very hard headed people to do things, and that's because I'm not afraid to make people listen. It's just some women's mentality that you can't speak up. Seriously, how sad is it that we have wrestlers afraid to suggest things to their boss? I'm not saying fight, I'm saying don't be flimsy, and don't choose flight. |
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Post by weekendwarrior on Apr 29, 2009 23:04:50 GMT -5
Feminist ideals have no place in wrestling.
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Post by Snitsky on Apr 29, 2009 23:05:12 GMT -5
Eye candy is a dime a dozen any of those chicks try talking up and they will lose their position to the next chick who is willing to do/take anything to get a WWE contract/or push Which is pretty stupid. You know, many jobs in the US these days with the economy are the same way. But too many women are afraid to be assertive and force their boss to recognize their talent, make a strong suggestion or ultimatum and try to see eye to eye. Maybe I'm just a born salesperson, but I can convince even very hard headed people to do things, and that's because I'm not afraid to make people listen. It's just some women's mentality that you can't speak up. Seriously, how sad is it that we have wrestlers afraid to suggest things to their boss? I'm not saying fight, I'm saying don't be flimsy, and don't choose flight. I understand you but you have to look at it from their point of view-this is a chance of a lifetime, would anyone know half of the divas if they were not associated with WWE?same with the wrestlers..i remember matt hardy saying when he got his first WWE contract he didnt even read it, he just signed it because to him he had made it and that was what mattered...however i think WWE is willing to be flexible to people like Taker and HBK who have put in the work for many years but if someone like Eve wanted to negotiate the terms of her contract? ...next |
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Post by Sparvid on Apr 30, 2009 1:53:32 GMT -5
 "Vince McMahon doesn't care about female people" |
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Lino
Samurai Cop
We are one.
Posts: 2,301
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Post by Lino on Apr 30, 2009 2:08:43 GMT -5
Word. Eye candy is what it's all about. The divas division is a joke. When I do watch Raw, I just fast forward through any diva segments that don't feature Santino doing something funny. I actually watch some matches in the TNA Knockouts division. That is because they hire attractive women who can still wrestle.
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greeby
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 7,088
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Post by greeby on Apr 30, 2009 2:19:01 GMT -5
Given dismally short TV matches.
No character development.
Crowd couldn't care less
Sounds like the male midcard
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nt86
Don Corleone
How to bump like a maniac and not end up in hospital
Posts: 1,442
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Post by nt86 on Apr 30, 2009 3:13:49 GMT -5
The Divas aren't so much to blame, as opposed to WWE itself. Since the Attitude era it has been like this. Before that in the early 90's, Alundra Blayze and Bull Nakano were having awesome matches AND they had a crowd reaction...and neither of these women were eye candy.
Fast forward to the late 90's and you have Sable going over talented women wrestlers like Jacqueline, Ivory and Luna.
When Finlay took over training the women, somewhere between 2001-2003 they were actually doing alright. Trish, Lita, Victoria, Molly Holly, Jazz and a few others were having strong, competitive matches.
Then that awful Diva Search came in....
Now they're PG and expect nearly all the women to wrestle which is bollocks because half of them shouldn't be anywhere near a ring. Add to that they're given about 2 seconds and usually a match is won by a excretory matterty roll up.
Also no effort is made to create any character for these women. The heels are jealous sluts, the faces are smiley girl next door types. Beth Phoenix is someone that can do character IMO. Just listen to her promo at Backlash...I haven't heard a WWE Diva cut such coherent, well flowing promos for a long time. Most of them sound forced and arkward.
Quite telling really...the most OVER female in the company is Vickie Guerrero, who is NOT a Diva.
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Post by Snitsky on Apr 30, 2009 11:17:37 GMT -5
here is the old blog posted by WCW's Mark Madden-it was posted before
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Post by Lenny: Smooth like Keith Stone on Apr 30, 2009 14:41:04 GMT -5
here is the old blog posted by WCW's Mark Madden-it was posted before Well that explains why the divas and knockouts got their jobs in wrestling. Now if someone could just explain to me why Mark Madden had a job in wrestling, I will have all the answers I seek. |
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Post by Snitsky on Apr 30, 2009 17:07:03 GMT -5
So, how can WWE fix the divas division to make it watchable>?
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,236
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Post by Mecca on Apr 30, 2009 17:51:12 GMT -5
They have no desire and will never have a desire to fix womens wrestling. In their opinion it's fine because frankly nationally speaking womens wrestling doesn't draw in this country. It's filler, most people go take a piss break during the womens matches...they hire good looking ones because they can make money off them with calendars and such.
Yes we can point out the growing female audience but the females I know that like wrestling could careless about womens wrestling they're there to see Cena and Orton.
In the end we're talking about something that is filler that has never nationally drawn in this country. Cruiserweight, Tag Team and undercard wrestling is more of a proven draw than womens wrestling is in this country and they won't push those things either so think about that.
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Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 16,502
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Post by Mac on Apr 30, 2009 17:53:41 GMT -5
So, how can WWE fix the divas division to make it watchable>? You cant. Heres what Divas are... Midcarders who have reached their ceiling and have nowhere else to go after winning the woman's title. Why should we care? |
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Post by charlesmc206 on Apr 30, 2009 18:15:39 GMT -5
Well, TNA seems to be trying to put together a good womens division. The knockouts have draw the highest numbers on IMPACT on a few occasions, so it would seem that there is perhaps more of an audience for womens wrestling than people might think.
As for the WWE, they don't really make any effort to put a good product out there so what do you expect? It's like asking a special child to recreate the Mona Lisa, it's just going to end up looking and smelling like crap.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Apr 30, 2009 22:34:27 GMT -5
It's been a looooong time but: I DON'T KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
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Starlight Starbright
Don Corleone
Suffers From Macho Madness.
?Literary, intelligent, yet capable of great savagery. A terrifying genius.?
Posts: 1,969
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Post by Starlight Starbright on May 1, 2009 2:48:31 GMT -5
The problem with WWE's women are lack of gimmicks. In TNA, the only chick resembling a WWE style female babyface is Taylor Wilde, though Taylor isn't as sexualized as the other girls (is that even a word). Taylor is just your happy go lucky white meat babyface. However, also in TNA are the cocky babyface with Sojo Bolt, the anti-diva with ODB, the rebellious hardcore knockout Roxxi, and the formerly insane Daffney (according to her anyway, she's cured now according to her). Now, Christy hasn't been around much, and didn't have much of a run after the Rock n' Rave Infection, so I'm not gonna count her now. But, I just named the 6 female babyfaces in TNA, and they can all be described differently. In WWE, the heels also all, for the most part, have the same gimmick. Arrogant bitch. In TNA, you have the prima donna stable, the Beautiful People, who all have the same gimmick, but are in a stable together, so there's nothing wrong with that, the monster Awesome Kong and Siad, who is the burrkah wearing, mysterious protege of the monster. Now, TNA is kinda low on heels, but hey, new girls are supposed to be coming in. The Divas Battle Royal proved that they didn't care about them. They just threw them all out there so they wouldn't pick up on Santino right off the bat, and that's bullexcretory matter. I'm sure Sunny for example would have gotten a huge reaction, if she wasn't just thrown out there. This. It's unfair to blame the women. It's also such a ridiculous blanket statement to say "scrap the womens' division" when you have Phoenix, Melina, Gail, Nattie and a few other wrestlers that can actually work a match instead of random ass models thrown in there. Also, Mark Madden hates women. His opinion really shouldn't even count for a dime. Dude has no talent and fits better under someone like Russo- their whole philosophy on women is T & A. Without feminist ideas in wrestling Japanese women would not have been blowing away contemporary males in the 80s and 90s. This thread saddens me. So many woman-hating ideas; women are just pieces of meat? Awful. Women are just around to be chew toys for men? Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.  That's really f***ing awful and it's a shame so many spineless women go along with it because they see themselves as having no other worth. Is that why feminist ideas don't belong in wrestling, so women know their place? I believe if a woman leaves her family, puts her body through hell, travels up and down the highways and becomes proficient at wrestling she should have an opportunity to be more than some male wrestler's chew toy or a piece of meat. But then again, I am not a hairy knuckled caveman. Of course the WWE does not respect the Divas. They proved that with the divas searches. Somehow being hot gets you a job women worked and trained for years to get. The WM battle royal proved it once again. They made them enter all together to Kid Rock. Kid Rock.  |
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Starlight Starbright
Don Corleone
Suffers From Macho Madness.
?Literary, intelligent, yet capable of great savagery. A terrifying genius.?
Posts: 1,969
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Post by Starlight Starbright on May 1, 2009 2:52:05 GMT -5
The Divas aren't so much to blame, as opposed to WWE itself. Since the Attitude era it has been like this. Before that in the early 90's, Alundra Blayze and Bull Nakano were having awesome matches AND they had a crowd reaction...and neither of these women were eye candy. Fast forward to the late 90's and you have Sable going over talented women wrestlers like Jacqueline, Ivory and Luna. When Finlay took over training the women, somewhere between 2001-2003 they were actually doing alright. Trish, Lita, Victoria, Molly Holly, Jazz and a few others were having strong, competitive matches. Then that awful Diva Search came in.... Now they're PG and expect nearly all the women to wrestle which is bollocks because half of them shouldn't be anywhere near a ring. Add to that they're given about 2 seconds and usually a match is won by a excretory matterty roll up. Also no effort is made to create any character for these women. The heels are jealous sluts, the faces are smiley girl next door types. Beth Phoenix is someone that can do character IMO. Just listen to her promo at Backlash...I haven't heard a WWE Diva cut such coherent, well flowing promos for a long time. Most of them sound forced and arkward. Quite telling really...the most OVER female in the company is Vickie Guerrero, who is NOT a Diva. Because thanks to WWE's really low standards (and bad taste) in women they don't even bother teaching the walking T&A how to talk. And yeah, half the divas shouldn't even be in the same area code as a ring. I took a long hiatus from wrestling when Jazz, Molly, Jacqueline started rolling out and diva searches started rolling in. I was too disgusted. Good point about the Knockouts being distinguishable from each other. People keep telling me the Divas (besides, Phoenix, Melina and Maryse) have different characters but it's gotten to the point where I can't even pick out Nattie in the crowd of similar faces. |
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on May 1, 2009 5:21:41 GMT -5
I think WWE respects the divas just fine. The divas get paid good money to do what they do. It's the fans of women's wrestling that WWE doesn't really respect, since WWE has no desire to make it a serious part of their product. Of course it's been that way basically forever, so this isn't a recent thing. Even some of the WWE's greatest female feuds such as Trish vs Mickie didn't come without heaping amounts of sexual overtones. Of course the WWE fans who don't want to see women's wrestling far outweigh the ones who do, so I doubt it's ever going to change. I am a women's wrestling fan, but I know better than to look for it from WWE. Kinda like I wouldn't walk into a bakery and look for the oil change department. But if the bakery HAS an oil change department, you may at least take a look. And you may think "This oil change thing needs to be made better, or scrapped entirely." Maybe you should have used two closely related products, such as Bakery and pizza for example. They are both food. If the WWE started a midget division and gave it a belt, and at times made it watchable, then I'm going to expect the same level and better of entertainment/wrestling. |
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Post by Loki on May 1, 2009 5:29:16 GMT -5
This. It's unfair to blame the women. It's also such a ridiculous blanket statement to say "scrap the womens' division" when you have Phoenix, Melina, Gail, Nattie and a few other wrestlers that can actually work a match instead of random ass models thrown in there. Also, Mark Madden hates women. His opinion really shouldn't even count for a dime. Dude has no talent and fits better under someone like Russo- their whole philosophy on women is T & A. Without feminist ideas in wrestling Japanese women would not have been blowing away contemporary males in the 80s and 90s. This thread saddens me. So many woman-hating ideas; women are just pieces of meat? Awful. Women are just around to be chew toys for men? Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse. That's really snorking awful and it's a shame so many spineless women go along with it because they see themselves as having no other worth. Is that why feminist ideas don't belong in wrestling, so women know their place? I believe if a woman leaves her family, puts her body through hell, travels up and down the highways and becomes proficient at wrestling she should have an opportunity to be more than some male wrestler's chew toy or a piece of meat. But then again, I am not a hairy knuckled caveman. Of course the WWE does not respect the Divas. They proved that with the divas searches. Somehow being hot gets you a job women worked and trained for years to get. The WM battle royal proved it once again. They made them enter all together to Kid Rock. Kid Rock. This has NOTHING to do with feminism or with our perception of women. And the comparison with Japanese wrestling is irrelevant to the point of it becoming "apples and bowling balls". Women's wrestling in AMERICA has never drawn a dime. Actually, it even struggled to get third-rate airtime on most shows... Otherwise how could have Moolah held onto her Women's Title for a lifetime??? Because nobody cared enough to force the title to be defended and featured on the shows. Let's take a look at the "most memorable" moments in women's wrestling since the First Boom: * Richter @ WMI. Courtesy of Cyndi Lauper. * Survivor Series Elimination Match: the push to the division lasted few months. * Chyna: who was treated like a freak, not like a competent female wrestler. * Cage match closing RAW: heh... who remembers that? * PUSSY CLAW! So.... in that disheartening scenario, I don't think the way Miss Wrestlemania ended was that bad. Actually, it was FITTING to what women's wrestling has been for most of those 25 years. |
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nt86
Don Corleone
How to bump like a maniac and not end up in hospital
Posts: 1,442
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Post by nt86 on May 1, 2009 5:33:10 GMT -5
I know this is an overused reference now, but Trish and Lita are more than evidence that the fans can get into women's wrestling. Even Mickie James during her heel run and the reaction she got at WM22.
Women's wrestling can be much more than a piss break if the writers put genuine effort into making the women stick out and have something for the crowd (male or female) to like. Those "Lita! Lita" chants they used to do wasn't just because they thought she was hot, but also because she had something different about her and WWE marketed that very well and she still has quite a fanbase after her retirement. I mean even the hot faces today get zero response, aside from their entrance.
I honestly think they could make Beth Phoenix a big face star (as she's already done it as a heel). She's better in the ring than Lita, she also has the ability to be charismatic, funny and good on the mic.
In the past you had Wendi Richter who was legit the #2 star in the company. The Cyndi Lauper connection was there but still she was a star and a good worker.
As far as making good matches...Glamour Girls V Jumping Bomb Angels absolutely owned!
It would have been cool if Vince continued to bring in the Japanese talent. He basically got so pissed off after an Aja Kong match in 1995...that she was stiff as hell and more interesting than most of the men on the roster at the time, that he stopped using them altogether because they would have overshadowed the rest of them.
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