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Post by Andrew is Good on May 1, 2009 16:26:29 GMT -5
I would say they were draws. Certainly not to the point of an Austin, or a Rock. They were decent merch sellers, sold lots of dvds separately about them. Very few people are draws by themselves. During the hottest periods, Hogan had a Piper, and Austin had a McMahon. And, I wouldn't say they were sidekicks. Lita, by herself, was a pretty established star, as was Trish. The only time Trish was a sidekick was when she was with Christian, and when Christian was retired, Tomko was there as her bodyguard. Lita had a lot of injury issues, and was also a main part of the Hardys, kinda like how Matt and Jeff will always be somewhat linked too each other. They also had to capitalize on her hatred with Edge, and she was a pretty over heel. She had a lot of heat, which I feel women also have a hard time getting. They were pretty established stars, both of them, by themselves or with other people. Lita was the main event girl with Edge for a very long time, and usually was around the top of the card with the Hardys. So, maybe she had some help. Trish, on the other hand, was a big draw by herself. I'll join the "Trish was heavily overrated" group, and I co-sign Cenamark's analysis on her. Lita was good, better than Trish by a mile, but still at her best as sidekick/valet/manager/girlfriend. Quite frankly, after hearing people discussing whether Bret, Shawn or Taker could be considered draws, I find laughable even thinking about Trish as something remotely close to a draw. Isn't TNA kinda like "wrestling fans' wrestling"? So I'm not surprised some female wrestlers being booked competently can improve ratings and please a more "smart" fanbase. It's a wonderful picture, but I don't think you can really take a regional show as a proof... You don't pay to attend a local show featuring former Superstars or "never were" Superstars unless you're an avid fan. So, it's great some girls were interested in Samantha Swallows, but how could that affect it the Big League? The matter is: the vast vast majority of WWE's audience never cared about the "workrate" of the women who were in the ring. Them being billed as Divas, walking pieces of meat, over the last decade has just killed whatever different approach fans could have. Good wrestling can be, at most, a nice touch to the usual TnA show. But a draw worth investing time and effort? Nope She was a top female draw, I'm not saying she was the number one person in the company, but that doesn't discount how over she was with the crowd. And, you're not getting that I've said nothing about work rate. It's not about work rate, it's about emotional connection. That's why all those girls ran up to that chick. They could relate to her. Take Rey Mysterio. Why do you think kids love him? Because, he's smaller then all the other wrestlers. They're smaller then everyone else, so they see Rey doing well against those bigger wrestlers, and think, maybe I could be like that. Another example is why is Rey so over with the latino population, and a draw with them (he and Eddie Guerrero to be exact back in 05). It's because they could culturally relate to them. That's why Bruno was so over back in the day. They had such a huge ethnic population in New York, that Bruno was so loved, because everybody related to him. Why was Austin loved so much? Because everyone could relate to Austin, of sitting down, drinking a beer, and wanting to kick your bosses ass. Sandman, in ECW, why was he so over? Because, he was like the people in the crowd. Conversely, if you want to be a great heel, your heelish qualities have to connect with the crowd in a certain way where they don't like that person, or there is a completely disconnect. Kurt Angle was pushed as this great Olympic Hero, but he was booed like crazy (which was done on purpose) because nobody could relate to being an Olympic Gold Medalist. It's why Rock Maivia didn't get over. There was a disconnect. So, if you have the women, like, Beth Pheonix could be a great babyface. Because, how many people know about that tough girl, who hung around with the boys and could beat them at sports, or compete on their level, which Beth did, being the only girl on the wrestling team. Melina, on the other hand, can be an ok babyface, but the paparazzi deal and the celebrity that did nothing to earn their fame, that creates a huge disconnect with the fans, and can get her heat. So, you have two wrestlers, who both can be understood by the crowd in some way, you put them in a program together, and you can start drawing some money. So, when you hire models, and, people aren't that stupid. They see wrestler A who is a model, but isn't that good in the ring, and they see wrestler B, who can wrestle, even though work rate doesn't matter, it's still supposed to be an athletic contest. How can this model beat this wrestler? I think some have gotten over decently for different reasons. Kelly Kelly for example has great sympathy, because of how small she is, her facial expressions, etc. Maria has the same thing, but they're still just used as eye candy to put the wrestlers over. But, that's as far as they can go. You have two strong chicks, who are put over well on television, you could do a good run with them I think. Maybe not something bigger then the World Title, but certainly something that could put some extra asses in the seats, and something that everyone can relate to. That's one reason the Attitude Era was so big. Everyone was important, from top to bottom, and if the women are viewed as more then just eye candy, it can add to the entire show. And with Trish and Lita, everytime someone is put on television, it costs money, and they invest money on everyone who they put out there. Trish and Lita must have been doing something right to be featured so prominently on television, or were putting a lot of asses in seats if they were being used so well, for a good 6 years straight. And, why is it that no one else has gotten the exposure or the tv time that they did? |
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azz0r
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Post by azz0r on May 1, 2009 16:40:35 GMT -5
God I love how theyre bitching about it when its the biggest its ever been.
Time was in the WWE that the belt would be on someone for a year or two and they'd defend it once every 6 months.
Then around the attitude era they built up a good division and they've maintained it.
They get a match each week, on Raw and Smackdown. They're treated the same in the draft. They do have personalities.
Its a natural progression, to bitch and moan and say its got worse is totally avoiding the past where the division barely existed.
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Post by CrazySting on May 1, 2009 16:51:58 GMT -5
They get a match each week, on Raw and Smackdown. They're treated the same in the draft. They do have personalities. WWE divas Generic one dimensional happy diva babyface: Mickie, Kelly, Maria, Gail, Candice, Melina, the Bellas, Rosa Generic one dimensional heel diva: McCool, Layla, Jillian Only Beth Phoenix and Maryse have anything resembling characters. |
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Post by Loki on May 1, 2009 16:56:50 GMT -5
@ Andrew
I didn't mean "workrate" as techincal ability and similar things.
I just meant in the big picture, most fans don't care much about the Divas as a whole, regardless of their actual skills and personas. In the end, Divas are a pleasant break between the mildly entertaining midcard match and DA MAIN EVENT!!!
Au contraire, fans of local promotions care about any aspect of the product, from the top to the bottom of the card.
Adn don't get me wrong, I agree with your analysis about women's wrestling could, can (and in rare occasions used to) make it for interesting television.
It's true, with a good angle and a consistent push, Beth Phoenix could be the new Chyna; Mickie could have been a new face Lita or something... Ditzy Maria was interesting for a short while...
The list can go on and on.
But my main question is one: would it be worth it?
The same time and effort put into building up a midcarder, or [less smart but more rewarding in the 'here and now' mentality] to promote an upper-midcarder/main eventer.
I think, say, 5 more minutes of Orton v HHH, albeit redundant, are perhaps more advantageous than Melina v Maryse.
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nt86
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Post by nt86 on May 1, 2009 17:10:17 GMT -5
God I love how theyre bitching about it when its the biggest its ever been. Time was in the WWE that the belt would be on someone for a year or two and they'd defend it once every 6 months. Then around the attitude era they built up a good division and they've maintained it. They get a match each week, on Raw and Smackdown. They're treated the same in the draft. They do have personalities. Its a natural progression, to bitch and moan and say its got worse is totally avoiding the past where the division barely existed. What personalities? Only Beth Phoenix has a character I can get into. Maryse is overrated IMO and the others have nothing. The Attitude era isn't exactly the best period to compare women's wrestling with anything. If you are talking about the days of Sable as women's champ...then think again. She was a selfish bitch, unwilling to bump or improve in the ring while talents like Jacqueline, Ivory and Luna got wasted. Even after she left it remained a peep show. Interest only picked up really when Lita arrived. Prior to Attitude, Blayze/Nakano was done a million times, but it was still a whole lot better than the sloppy matches these days (they're repetitive too). I'd say 2002/03 was when it was at its best, match wise. Like the Victoria/Trish feud was interesting. The psycho Diva role has been recycled but she was the one who pulled it off with perfection. And the Diva roster might be bigger...but um, how many of them can actually work (i.e. not completely snork up spots every two seconds?). And two minute matches are negligible. |
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Sajoa Moe
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Post by Sajoa Moe on May 1, 2009 20:50:25 GMT -5
As far as Trish goes, her heel run was PAINFULLY overrated. I couldn't stand her awful jokes and her bad acting and her idiotic mannerisms. Maybe she was intentionally trying to look like one of those people who thinks they're funny and cool but they're not, but I just couldn't stand it.
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Post by Snitsky on May 1, 2009 21:06:43 GMT -5
Nattie,katie Lea and Beth came from shimmer There are exceptions, of course. But generally when you hear about Johnny Ace picking up a swimsuit mag, finding the hottest girl there, and offering her a contract, without so much as an interview, it's pretty obvious what's going on. so would you say the diva search is an extension of that? If WWE really wanted to invest the time they could have an awesome division- katie lea vs beth phoenix in a ladder match- those two had amazing matches in OVW- that can easily draw in WWE |
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Post by Andrew is Good on May 2, 2009 16:16:33 GMT -5
It definitely would be worth it, because right now, more then ever are women getting into the business. Thanks in part to Shimmer, Trish Stratus and Lita getting over in the early 00s and stuff like that, women are now entering the business moreso then in years past. Back during the Monday Night Wars, women were not very involved. In WWF and WCW, you had Madusa/Alundra Blaze, but for those who were around back then, Alundra really just wrestled job girls, with the exception of Bull Nakado and Bertha Faye. And of course, with WWE, they just had valets getting over, like Sable, Sunny and Marlena. You had Miss Texas, Jacqueline in Memphis, but she was put out on television to wrestle men, with the reasoning that she was believable, and a tough girl (that was Jerry Jarrett's rational). And, of course Gloww was a little goofy, and nothing really came from that.
But now, here's another thing with Trish, and at times, she wasn't the best, but I think her character and persona covered that up. The stuff that went on between 02-04, I think that really jump started the possibility of women's wrestling, because there was more of it on Raw. And of course, girls like Jazz, Molly Holly, Ivory and Victoria can't be forgotten either, as they were the work horses, Molly especially, what a worker she was.
So now, because you have more women coming in, and coming in to be wrestlers, you have more of an opportunity to use that to your advantage, and make some money with it. I do feel however that some of the women need to be retrained when they get to the big leagues. Like, I love Daizee Haze, and I've said this before, but her being a trainer in a school is a complete disgrace to pro wrestling, not because she's bad, but based on her experience. Like, recently, this chick Ms. Natural came into Shimmer, and she probably would be 10 times better then Daizee as a trainer, because she has just as much experience, but she was trained by friggin Harley Race. And I still don't even think Ms. Natural would be a good trainer either, because maybe at 8 years, she may not have grasped everything Harley taught her, and not saying that to bash her, but I'd say the same thing about everybody. I mean, if your a chick, why don't you get Luna to train you, she's a trainer. She'd be tons better.
But, if you have girls who are athletic, and who are talented, and who can connect with the audience, why not invest money in them. It's like, back in the day, 220 was a small guy. And, money in most territories (probably other then Memphis), money was invested into the bigger guys. But, then they started investing money in smaller wrestlers, and it started working. And now, smaller wrestlers can be draws. Why not the same thing with women?
It's all about how they're put forward on television, and it's all about their efforts. As much as it's the office, it also has to be the wrestler themselves, though in some cases, the office is just retarded, and the wrestler is trying (Colt Cabana/Shawn Spears/Jay Bradley). Like, Trish and Lita were the main event of Raw, and they had an amazing match, the psychology was great, and the end was fantastic, because Lita, after all the misery she went through (though that was pretty wrestlecrappy), in the end, the hero conquered evil, and that was a great moment. Now that you have more females wrestling out there, you have the opportunity to try to invest in a new part of the audience, and help bring in more of the male part of the audience as well.
It's like, the bra and panties matches really hurt WWE, because they looked phoney, and pro wrestling is supposed to be a competition. Well, if these girls are hitting each other with pillows, where's the competition in that? It's just stupid. And, whenever the women are trying to have a serious match, it's just thought of as bullshit, because they have these pillowfights and bra and panties matches, when like, here's the thing. Guys love seeing hot chicks. But, they're also not watching porn, they're watching wrestling. So, why not have the hot chicks wrestle in a good athletic contest.
And with the local shows, like, from what I gathered from the audience, most weren't internet marks. Most of the little girls that ran up to that chick were just casual fans, who looked up to a female as part of the show. Now, if parents have a little girl, and they're wrestling fans, do they want kids to look up to a babyface who is wrestling in a pillow fight? No. But, if you have a babyface, take a Taylor Wilde, who I love by the way, though she was an overpushed white meat babyface in TNA in the beginning. She's still one of my favourites. She fights hard to beat her opponent, who is bigger and stronger then her, she has good fire, she's generally a good babyface. And then, she finally beats her opponent through hard work, how is that a bad thing to look up to.
I read from Victoria that one thing she's always wanted is to have some little girl with a Victoria poster on her wall. So, you get parents encouraging their girls to watch the product. Then, you may have older chicks going with their boyfriends, or with their friends, and they maybe able to relate to the women wrestling, if they're doing a good job.
I'll give another example. I was with this girl while I was watching Lita vs Trish, and she was burying the match, because she was so used to these girls being all about tits and ass (she was a former fan), that she didn't take in mind that they were being serious in this match. And, if you change people's perspective on that, you have the opportunity to bring in a whole new audience, and strongly maintain and build a strong audience you have now.
Maybe I'm an optimist as well. I mean, back during 1997, the idea of women wrestling being big draws would be crazy. Sunny and Sable were ok, but they can only go so far as valets. The valets/managers are supposed to enhance the talent. But, now that you have female workers, you have the opportunity to change people's perception. Now, that's if WWE does do that. Before Gail Kim, the last female wrestler they hired was Nattie Neidhart back in January 2007. So, that is pretty sad. But, if you get girls getting over on the indies, and then TNA wants them. They get big in TNA, so WWE wants them, and maybe the contract of a WWE chick expires, and she can wrestle. Well, she then goes to TNA. And the cycle of seeing strong female talent starts to increase.
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Post by CrazySting on May 2, 2009 16:20:41 GMT -5
I think there's also an ego thing. A lot of guys don't want to be upstaged by women. So, the divas can be okay wrestlers, but they'll never be allowed to be terrific.
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Post by Snitsky on May 2, 2009 16:37:50 GMT -5
I think there's also an ego thing. A lot of guys don't want to be upstaged by women. So, the divas can be okay wrestlers, but they'll never be allowed to be terrific. Jeff Jarrett took a big bonus for putting over chyna for her to win the IC title.so yeah i agree so would you say the diva search is an extension of that? |
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Post by CrazySting on May 2, 2009 16:41:13 GMT -5
Snitsky, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask/say.
Yes, most of the women in wwe now are from the diva search, so I suppose it is.
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Post by Snitsky on May 2, 2009 16:46:35 GMT -5
Snitsky, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask/say. Yes, most of the women in wwe now are from the diva search, so I suppose it is. you said what i mean is so instead of looking through a mag , have all the girls in one place so who ever can take their pick..and i guess a lucky few will get a job? |
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Post by CrazySting on May 2, 2009 16:47:53 GMT -5
Most of them do get contracts.
Heck, I think you're luckier if you don't win.
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Post by Snitsky on May 2, 2009 16:54:08 GMT -5
Most of them do get contracts. Heck, I think you're luckier if you don't win. you're not understanding what i mean... leyla miliani is very pretty i often wondered why she didnt get a contract and what is the deciding factor for the girls who didnt win to get a contract but i agree it seems you are better off if you do not win these are the girls who were in the search the year layla won Layla El - Winner Jen England - Runner-up J.T. Tinney - 3rd Place Milena Roucka - 4th Place Erica Chevillar - 5th Place Rebecca DiPietro - 6th Place Maryse Ouellet - 7th Place Amy Zidian - 8th Place Interesting that the person who came in 7th is now the WWE diva's champ and the winner has had bogus storylines and not that much TV time...hmmmm makes you wonder |
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nt86
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Post by nt86 on May 2, 2009 16:55:02 GMT -5
In 2003, they were actually smart enough to keep all the wrestling women on RAW and all the eye candy on Smackdown! These lines have been blurred with another female title and the fact they've been mixed up across the brands.
2003 was:
RAW - Trish, Molly, Jazz, Victoria, Gail Kim, Lita, Jacqueline, Ivory, Stacy Keibler....and in 2003 they were smart enough to keep Stacy a valet.
Smackdown! - Stephanie, Torrie, Nidia, Sable, Dawn Marie, Shaniqua....Nidia went onto RAW without much impact, Shaniqua would have never made it anyway due to her bad attitude. The others were predominantly eye candy. Steph was GM.
If they were to put Beth, Gail, Nattie, Katie, Jillian, Mickie, Melina, possibly Michelle and Maryse on one brand it might have actually worked a bit better (and with only one women's title in existence) while all the others could be spilt across the other two doing valet stuff.
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Post by parder on May 2, 2009 16:57:54 GMT -5
I think there's also an ego thing. A lot of guys don't want to be upstaged by women. So, the divas can be okay wrestlers, but they'll never be allowed to be terrific. That is definitely true, and it's a big part of the largely untold story of women in North American pro wrestling going right back to the 1950s. @andrew, the thing about Trish and Lita and encouraging women to get into the business is definitely true. If you check out the wrestler profiles on sites like GLORY Wrestling (site that helps raise the profile of women wrestlers on the indies) you'd be amazed at how many of the younger women cite how seeing Trish and Lita inspired them to finally give a shot at being in the business and live a dream. I'd also add with regard to the point about the initial pushing of smaller wrestlers who could do more athletic moves back in the late 80s/early 90s that it got over so much in large part because it was completely fresh, novel, and exciting to the new audiences that they couldn't get enough of it. I'm surprised someone like Loki who always complains about how stale the WWE product is today doesn't see the potential in something genuinely FRESH (at least in the past few years) - competitive, athletic, well worked matches between talented attractive women of all shapes, sizes, and gimmicks (not just the WWE stereotypes) based on meaningful angles and storylines. TNA had a fair degree of success with it before Gail Kim left. Shimmer is also still in business and going strong after 4 years, with ROH very happy to recognise their title and showcase the best of the (non-TNA) bunch on their TV show and PPVs. |
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Post by parder on May 2, 2009 17:10:02 GMT -5
In 2003, they were actually smart enough to keep all the wrestling women on RAW and all the eye candy on Smackdown! These lines have been blurred with another female title and the fact they've been mixed up across the brands. 2003 was: RAW - Trish, Molly, Jazz, Victoria, Gail Kim, Lita, Jacqueline, Ivory, Stacy Keibler....and in 2003 they were smart enough to keep Stacy a valet. Smackdown! - Stephanie, Torrie, Nidia, Sable, Dawn Marie, Shaniqua....Nidia went onto RAW without much impact, Shaniqua would have never made it anyway due to her bad attitude. The others were predominantly eye candy. Steph was GM. If they were to put Beth, Gail, Nattie, Katie, Jillian, Mickie, Melina, possibly Michelle and Maryse on one brand it might have actually worked a bit better (and with only one women's title in existence) while all the others could be spilt across the other two doing valet stuff. Yeah that was one of the good things about the brand split back in the day in that they gave the shows a little bit more distinctive identity. So Raw had more serious womens wrestling for the title (as well as occasional T&A matches), while Smackdown had a few pretty women doing other stuff. But Smackdown also had a cruiserweight division that Raw didn't. This allowed each of those types of wrestling to have the breathing room to be properly showcased, hence how the women were able to have 5-8 minute matches on Raw on a more regular basis. Brand exclusive PPVs also helped, since they didn't have as big a depth of talent to fill up a PPV card, so women's title matches became practically a given on the card of Raw PPVs. They were normally successful and so they got a spot on a lot of the multi-brand shows too. Even if they were mainly used as a change of pace in between certain men's matches they still normally had a lot more crowd heat than today's women's matches do. It's notable that despite having two womens titles, neither has been defended on the past 3 WWE PPVs. And I can't really see one getting on the Judgment Day card unless Santina is challenging for the Divas title  . |
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Post by wwefan78 on May 2, 2009 17:18:44 GMT -5
If WWE doesn't think womens wrestling can draw, why employ female wrestlers? Better yet, why even bother having a womens division at all? If women are only good for eye-candy, why not skip them wrestling (as it will never draw) and insert a promo segment with Santino (as were almost there anyway)? WWE employs almost 20 divas of which maybe 6 or 7 are trained wrestlers from the start. Still they insist on having ALL these divas wrestle on TV semi-regularly and PPV:s occasionally. All this, in spite of the notion that womens wrestling IS NOT a draw. A headscratcher for sure..Once again, why promote something that doesn't draw?
And no, it's not the same thing as asking why Charlie Haas, Funaki or Jamie Noble still are employed since they will never draw. These individuals are important in the sense that they work dark matches and houseshows with new talent to help them develop. In addition they are used to put over debuting talent at times and make them look good. If you pay attention to a commentary during a divas match about 90% of time they are emphasizing their looks before any other skills. It's funny how they almost sound suprised when a diva pulls of a crips looking wrestling move. It's like they snap out of drooling for a split second just to say "and by the way, some of them can wrestle too"..
Not to sound as a broken record, but if womens wrestling isn't a draw why have a divas WRESTLING-segment on almost every weekly show? Seems like WWE can't make up their minds if women are only good for eye-candy or wrestling. I suppose they want both, but since the former is being promoted before the latter, nobody cares and thus uses the diva-matches as bathroom breaks..Sad but true..
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Post by CrazySting on May 2, 2009 17:22:43 GMT -5
Most of them do get contracts. Heck, I think you're luckier if you don't win. you're not understanding what i mean... leyla miliani is very pretty i often wondered why she didnt get a contract and what is the deciding factor for the girls who didnt win to get a contract but i agree it seems you are better off if you do not win these are the girls who were in the search the year layla won Layla El - Winner Jen England - Runner-up J.T. Tinney - 3rd Place Milena Roucka - 4th Place Erica Chevillar - 5th Place Rebecca DiPietro - 6th Place Maryse Ouellet - 7th Place Amy Zidian - 8th Place Interesting that the person who came in 7th is now the WWE diva's champ and the winner has had bogus storylines and not that much TV time...hmmmm makes you wonder As for who does and doesn't get a contract, obviously who's going to get along with everyone is a factor. And they don't want troublemakers, which may have been Layla's issue. I also think there may be the issue of whose willing to play ball, so to speak. |
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Post by CrazySting on May 2, 2009 17:23:45 GMT -5
If WWE doesn't think womens wrestling can draw, why employ female wrestlers? Better yet, why even bother having a womens division at all? If women are only good for eye-candy, why not skip them wrestling (as it will never draw) and insert a promo segment with Santino (as were almost there anyway)? WWE employs almost 20 divas of which maybe 6 or 7 are trained wrestlers from the start. Still they insist on having ALL these divas wrestle on TV semi-regularly and PPV:s occasionally. All this, in spite of the notion that womens wrestling IS NOT a draw. A headscratcher for sure..Once again, why promote something that doesn't draw? The answer to that lies elsewhere in this thread. Notably, the Madden article. |
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