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Post by Lair of the Shadow MaDaBa on Oct 5, 2009 22:57:52 GMT -5
This whole thing is simply proof-positive that Vince has absolutely, positively no Goddamned idea what he's doing anymore. He brings in celebrities thinking they'll pop a rating (they usually don't), they push feuds with Randy Orton despite the fact that they have absolutely obliterated any main-event star power that he had, their comedy is aimed at exactly nobody even though they plug themselves as a family show...and I just plain don't like the John Cena character.
I just...I don't...
...
I know I'm an imbecile. Yet, WWE makes me feel smart.
......
It almost feels as though that's illegal.
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,899 
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Post by comahan on Oct 5, 2009 22:59:42 GMT -5
I hate Ironman matches in general. I dont mind hour long matches when I dont know that theyre going an hour. If I think that it can end at any time, then it keeps me glued. When I know for certain that the first FIFTY minutes or so dont really matter? Bleh.
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Post by skiller on Oct 5, 2009 23:00:37 GMT -5
What if it ends in a draw?
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Phil Parent
El Dandy
Your Favourite Teacher
Posts: 8,508
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Post by Phil Parent on Oct 5, 2009 23:02:46 GMT -5
Well let me tell you, if they have one occasion to have enough time to show psychology, to work body parts and extend their movesets, an Iron Man Match is it.
Orton and Cena are both better than what they show. The contrast is not as heavy as Hogan in WWF / Hogan in New Japan, but it's there. But they don't need to do more to please the mass.
But WWE may truly chose to showcase their skills in a situation where they will have to last an hour and keep the people interested for that long.
But I'll admit, it being no DQ no countout probably means it will be an overbooked mess, with run-in and weapon attack galore. Meaning Cena wins (I know) because Legacy will run-in which will draw in DX and you know what that means.
Personally, I'd have them fight their ass off, until the final minutes, then I'd have the expected run-ins, only for Cena to turn on DX and Orton on Legacy. At the end of the day, Cena & Orton stand as Public Enemy #1. Then I'd make the kids cry buckets for weeks.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Oct 5, 2009 23:03:16 GMT -5
What if it ends in a draw? They share the title and they both leave Raw. |
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Post by EoE: Workin On My Night Cheese on Oct 5, 2009 23:03:17 GMT -5
What if it ends in a draw? [finkel]THE MATCH HAS BEEN ORDERED TO CONTINUE... THERE MUST BE A WINNER![/finkel] [king]We're in overtime, McMahonCole![/king] |
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Post by Nacho STAYS Hyped on Oct 5, 2009 23:05:41 GMT -5
What if it ends in a draw? They share the title and they both leave Raw. Hell, it would be worth it if they both left Raw! |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 5, 2009 23:07:51 GMT -5
Thats fair, but you're in the minority. I've seen that match actually rated five stars more than one place. I'm not even saying that this match will be good. I'm just saying that the parallels are there. -Rock and HHH had been feuding off and on for years -Rock, like Cena, was thought to be an awful wrestler who would never be able to hold up his end of a 60 minute match -HHH and Rock had had several good matches with each other, as have Orton and Cena Its no DQ so that should mask some of their weaknesses. I actually am optimistic they can pull it off. I'm certainly not willing to declare that the match will be a horrible failure before it even occurs. You are really reaching here. Rock and HHH were nowhere near as overdone as Cena and Orton at that point. I dont think they even had that many PPV singles matches against each other. There was the ladder match a few years prior when they were both midcarders, Backlash, and then the match you are talking about. I mean, I dont even care who wins this match anyways. Even if it ends up being a good match, I have no interest. It wont, though. Also, a No DQ stipulation on an Iron Man Match is just stupid, and goes to show you how much faith WWE has in these guys putting on a 60 minute showcase. Rock vs. HHH on PPV (includes tag and multi man matches) 1. Survivor Series 1996 2. In Your House: Final Four 3. In Your House: Fully Loaded 4. Summerslam '98 5. Over the Edge '99 6. Fully Loaded '99 7. Unforgiven '99 8. Survivor Series '99 9. Wrestlemania 2000 10. Backlash 2000 Cena vs. Orton on PPV 1. Backlash 2007 2. Vengeance: Night of Champions 3. Summerslam 2007 4. Unforgiven 2007 5. No Way Out 2008 6. Wrestlemania 24 7. Backlash 2008 8. Summerslam 2009 9. Breaking Point 10. Hell in a Cell So its the exact same number of encounters, Rock and HHH had six one on one's, and Orton-Cena have only had five. The no DQ is actually quite the opposite of stupid. Its actually brilliant. No DQ can do a great job of masking limitations they may have, because we know they won't be able to pull of a straight wrestling match for 60 minutes. |
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Post by YellowJacketY2J on Oct 5, 2009 23:07:56 GMT -5
Thats fair, but you're in the minority. I've seen that match actually rated five stars more than one place. I'm not even saying that this match will be good. I'm just saying that the parallels are there. -Rock and HHH had been feuding off and on for years -Rock, like Cena, was thought to be an awful wrestler who would never be able to hold up his end of a 60 minute match -HHH and Rock had had several good matches with each other, as have Orton and Cena Its no DQ so that should mask some of their weaknesses. I actually am optimistic they can pull it off. I'm certainly not willing to declare that the match will be a horrible failure before it even occurs. You are really reaching here. Rock and HHH were nowhere near as overdone as Cena and Orton at that point. I dont think they even had that many PPV singles matches against each other. There was the ladder match a few years prior when they were both midcarders, Backlash, and then the match you are talking about. I mean, I dont even care who wins this match anyways. Even if it ends up being a good match, I have no interest. It wont, though. Also, a No DQ stipulation on an Iron Man Match is just stupid, and goes to show you how much faith WWE has in these guys putting on a 60 minute showcase. Matches HHH/Rock have had on PPV leading up to their Iron Man Match: -Survivor Series 1996 (Rock teamed with Marc Mero, Jake Roberts and The Stalker to face HHH, Crush, Goldust and Jerry Lawler) -In Your House: Final Four -Fully Loaded 1998 -Summerslam 1998 -Over the Edge 1999 -Fully Loaded 1999 -Unforgiven 1999 (in a six-pack challenge that also included Kane, Big Show, Mankind, Undertaker and British Bulldog) -Survivor Series 1999 (in a triple threat that included Big Show) -Wrestlemania 2000 (in a fatal four way that included Mick Foley and Big Show) -Backlash 2000 Matches Randy Orton and John Cena have had on PPV: -Summerslam 2007 -Unforgiven 2007 -No Way Out 2008) -Wrestlemania XXIV (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Backlash 2008 (in a fatal four way that included HHH and JBL) -Night of Champions 2009 (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Summerslam 2009 -Breaking Point 2009 -Hell in a Cell 2009 |
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Post by Brickstone Kid on Oct 5, 2009 23:09:38 GMT -5
I actually thought it was a good idea. I can remember the last time two guys who many had thought had headlined far too many pay per views against each other, and had too limited of a moveset to pull of an ironman match were booked in one at a pay per view. It was Judgment Day 2000, and the match is still talked about to this day. Just sayin... Uhhhhhh....WRONG! Excluding their IC title feud, which predated their WWF Title feud by 2-3 years, Rock and HHH never faced each other one on one for the belt until Backlash 2000 (one month before Judgement Day). That was a feud that was criminally under-done IMO, whereas this one has been stale for what seems like months. |
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 5, 2009 23:13:58 GMT -5
A short explanation of why the WWE ended up in this situation:
MAIN EVENTERS/UPPER MIDCARD FROM 2009 (Raw/Smackdown, no ECW)
RAW:
MVP: got shifted from Smackdown, brief US title run, Yo-yo'd, tag team puragtory with Henry
Mark Henry: got shifted from ECW, face turn, looked to be ME, turned into Markswoggle and banished to tag team purgatory
Swagger: shifted from ECW, had an interesting interview with Orton that went nowhere, stuck in US title hunt
Kofi: despite being massively over, damned to midcard hell forever, recently lost US title
Miz: got buried by Cena so badly that he had to get repackaged, FINALLY recovers momentum with US title win, still far from ME
Mr. Kennedy: seemingly destined for ME, finally gets released due to all the enemies he made
Bats: shifted to Smackdown to make up for loss of starpower
HHH: repackaged AGAIN as DX w/Shawn
Big Show: used to elevate Tag titles, hasn't had a top title run in ages
and this leaves WHO for a credible ME run on RAW?
Smackdown:
Ziggler: slowly being built up, not ME yet
Morrison: see Ziggler
Bats: shifted due to loss of starpower (see below)
Rey: got a drug bust, unlikely to get a huge push upon return as he made an ass out of himself over the suspension
Jeff Hardy: finally becomes a true ME and...yeah
Taker: spends forever injured, career LITERALLY the walking dead at this point
Edge: out for a long time, Achilles may not heal properly, long injury history
Punk: currently titleless
Umaga: released
Jericho: used to elevate IC and Tag titles, hasn't had a top title run in ages
...as you can see, WWE has plenty of starpower, but alot of it is either injured, not ME ready, or separated due to the brand split. The injuries make an already overall skimpy roster even leaner than it already is.
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 5, 2009 23:16:04 GMT -5
I actually thought it was a good idea. I can remember the last time two guys who many had thought had headlined far too many pay per views against each other, and had too limited of a moveset to pull of an ironman match were booked in one at a pay per view. It was Judgment Day 2000, and the match is still talked about to this day. Just sayin... Uhhhhhh....WRONG! Excluding their IC title feud, which predated their WWF Title feud by 2-3 years, Rock and HHH never faced each other one on one for the belt until Backlash 2000 (one month before Judgement Day). That was a feud that was criminally under-done IMO, whereas this one has been stale for what seems like months. See above. The IC feud was less than two years prior...the exact same amount of time in between the two Orton-Cena feuds. They also had matches at Over the Edge 1999 and Fully Loaded 1999 one on one. Their match at Wrestlemania 2000 was also a one on one encounter for the final 20 minutes of the match. Compared the four way elimination that featured Cena and Orton where Cena was one of the early eliminations. About that feud being criminally underdone...I agree it was a great feud. I'm just bringing up what was the IWC complaint at the time, and how it mirrors the same things we're hearing about this match. |
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 5, 2009 23:18:21 GMT -5
You are really reaching here. Rock and HHH were nowhere near as overdone as Cena and Orton at that point. I dont think they even had that many PPV singles matches against each other. There was the ladder match a few years prior when they were both midcarders, Backlash, and then the match you are talking about. I mean, I dont even care who wins this match anyways. Even if it ends up being a good match, I have no interest. It wont, though. Also, a No DQ stipulation on an Iron Man Match is just stupid, and goes to show you how much faith WWE has in these guys putting on a 60 minute showcase. Matches HHH/Rock have had on PPV leading up to their Iron Man Match: -Survivor Series 1996 (Rock teamed with Marc Mero, Jake Roberts and The Stalker to face HHH, Crush, Goldust and Jerry Lawler) -Fully Loaded 1998 -Summerslam 1998 -Over the Edge 1999 -Fully Loaded 1999 -Unforgiven 1999 (in a six-pack challenge that also included Kane, Big Show, Mankind, Undertaker and British Bulldog) -Survivor Series 1999 (in a triple threat that included Big Show) -Wrestlemania 2000 (in a fatal four way that included Mick Foley and Big Show) -Backlash 2000 Matches Randy Orton and John Cena have had on PPV: -Summerslam 2007 -Unforgiven 2007 -No Way Out 2008) -Wrestlemania XXIV (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Backlash 2008 (in a fatal four way that included HHH and JBL) -Night of Champions 2009 (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Summerslam 2009 -Breaking Point 2009 -Hell in a Cell 2009 I am talking singles only. Multiman matches keep things fresh. I mean, Orton was in that Vengeance match that had Cena, Foley, etc. but I am not going to use that as an example of a stale feud. Also, keep in mind some of Rock and HHHs matches were when they were midcarders going after the IC Title, and the fact that they switched alignments, gimmicks, stables, etc. helped to keep things fresh. That is a lot different from Cena vs. Orton. Staleness and being overdone have way more factors than simply the names on the card. |
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Post by Brickstone Kid on Oct 5, 2009 23:18:25 GMT -5
A short explanation of why the WWE ended up in this situation: MAIN EVENTERS/UPPER MIDCARD FROM 2009 (Raw/Smackdown, no ECW) RAW: MVP: got shifted from Smackdown, brief US title run, Yo-yo'd, tag team puragtory with Henry Mark Henry: got shifted from ECW, face turn, looked to be ME, turned into Markswoggle and banished to tag team purgatory Swagger: shifted from ECW, had an interesting interview with Orton that went nowhere, stuck in US title hunt Kofi: despite being massively over, damned to midcard hell forever, recently lost US title Miz: got buried by Cena so badly that he had to get repackaged, FINALLY recovers momentum with US title win, still far from ME Mr. Kennedy: seemingly destined for ME, finally gets released due to all the enemies he made Bats: shifted to Smackdown to make up for loss of starpower HHH: repackaged AGAIN as DX w/Shawn and this leaves WHO for a credible ME run on RAW? Smackdown: Ziggler: slowly being built up, not ME yet Morrison: see Ziggler Bats: shifted due to loss of starpower (see below) Rey: got a drug bust, unlikely to get a huge push upon return as he made an ass out of himself over the suspension Jeff Hardy: finally becomes a true ME and...yeah Taker: spends forever injured, career LITERALLY the walking dead at this point Edge: out for a long time, Achilles may not heal properly, long injury history Punk: currently titleless Umaga: released ...as you can see, WWE has plenty of starpower, but alot of it is either injured, not ME ready, or separated due to the brand split. The injuries make an already overall skimpy roster even leaner than it already is.  Hello! I exist. |
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Post by ChitownKnight on Oct 5, 2009 23:18:29 GMT -5
Not gonna lie, having an ironman match after a Hell in a Cell is pretty stupid
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 5, 2009 23:21:17 GMT -5
I also do not care, for the record, what the IWC complains about. They complained about Rock or HHH ten years ago. It means nothing to me. My point is that HHH and Rocks various encounters were kept fresh using many factors, not just what gimmick they used in the match.
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Post by Bishblast on Oct 5, 2009 23:21:24 GMT -5
It could have been worse. It could have been Triple H vs. Orton for 60 minutes. At least Orton and Cena have some chemistry. I dunno... HHH and Orton I think have better chemistry, as far as inring goes. |
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 5, 2009 23:21:29 GMT -5
A short explanation of why the WWE ended up in this situation: MAIN EVENTERS/UPPER MIDCARD FROM 2009 (Raw/Smackdown, no ECW) RAW: MVP: got shifted from Smackdown, brief US title run, Yo-yo'd, tag team puragtory with Henry Mark Henry: got shifted from ECW, face turn, looked to be ME, turned into Markswoggle and banished to tag team purgatory Swagger: shifted from ECW, had an interesting interview with Orton that went nowhere, stuck in US title hunt Kofi: despite being massively over, damned to midcard hell forever, recently lost US title Miz: got buried by Cena so badly that he had to get repackaged, FINALLY recovers momentum with US title win, still far from ME Mr. Kennedy: seemingly destined for ME, finally gets released due to all the enemies he made Bats: shifted to Smackdown to make up for loss of starpower HHH: repackaged AGAIN as DX w/Shawn and this leaves WHO for a credible ME run on RAW? Smackdown: Ziggler: slowly being built up, not ME yet Morrison: see Ziggler Bats: shifted due to loss of starpower (see below) Rey: got a drug bust, unlikely to get a huge push upon return as he made an ass out of himself over the suspension Jeff Hardy: finally becomes a true ME and...yeah Taker: spends forever injured, career LITERALLY the walking dead at this point Edge: out for a long time, Achilles may not heal properly, long injury history Punk: currently titleless Umaga: released ...as you can see, WWE has plenty of starpower, but alot of it is either injured, not ME ready, or separated due to the brand split. The injuries make an already overall skimpy roster even leaner than it already is. Hello! I exist. Fixed for him and Show. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 5, 2009 23:23:43 GMT -5
Matches HHH/Rock have had on PPV leading up to their Iron Man Match: -Survivor Series 1996 (Rock teamed with Marc Mero, Jake Roberts and The Stalker to face HHH, Crush, Goldust and Jerry Lawler) -Fully Loaded 1998 -Summerslam 1998 -Over the Edge 1999 -Fully Loaded 1999 -Unforgiven 1999 (in a six-pack challenge that also included Kane, Big Show, Mankind, Undertaker and British Bulldog) -Survivor Series 1999 (in a triple threat that included Big Show) -Wrestlemania 2000 (in a fatal four way that included Mick Foley and Big Show) -Backlash 2000 Matches Randy Orton and John Cena have had on PPV: -Summerslam 2007 -Unforgiven 2007 -No Way Out 2008) -Wrestlemania XXIV (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Backlash 2008 (in a fatal four way that included HHH and JBL) -Night of Champions 2009 (in a triple threat that included HHH) -Summerslam 2009 -Breaking Point 2009 -Hell in a Cell 2009 I am talking singles only. Multiman matches keep things fresh. I mean, Orton was in that Vengeance match that had Cena, Foley, etc. but I am not going to use that as an example of a stale feud. Also, keep in mind some of Rock and HHHs matches were when they were midcarders going after the IC Title, and the fact that they switched alignments, gimmicks, stables, etc. helped to keep things fresh. That is a lot different from Cena vs. Orton. Staleness and being overdone have way more factors than simply the names on the card. You're moving the goalposts. Rock and HHH had faced each other, one on one, five times in just over two years prior to their Judgment Day 2000 Ironman match. They also had a sixth one on one match in 1997 Cena and Orton have faced each other one on one, six times in just over two years prior to their upcoming match. One more match. I'm not saying this feud isn't stale, or that the HHH-Rock feud wasn't awesome. The same complaints were there then that are here now. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 5, 2009 23:25:03 GMT -5
I also do not care, for the record, what the IWC complains about. They complained about Rock or HHH ten years ago. It means nothing to me. My point is that HHH and Rocks various encounters were kept fresh using many factors, not just what gimmick they used in the match. No one is disagreeing with you. I'm simply pointing out that there was another match made under almost identical circumstances that everyone and their mother said would suck and turned out to be incredible. Thats all. |
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