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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 8, 2009 11:50:24 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Total_Nonstop_Action_Wrestling_employeesHere is the thing though, TNA isn't really lacking in heavyweights. They have a roster of 38 by wikipedia and it looks pretty complete. Now if your talking tall guys they got Super Mex, Morgan, Nash, that guy in British Invasion who don't do much and probably Tomko. For all around heavier barrel chested Bossman/Brody types you got Abyss, Foley, Joe, Rhino, Ray and Devon, and I'd throw Lashley in here too as he is booked as a monster at the moment. So that's almost 1/4 the roster. i think your answer is evidence of the problem rather than a counterpoint to it, when abyss and joe are two of the guys that top your list as 'monsters' there is definitely a problem, they would look like chumps if they were to go to the wwe or wcw if it were still alive, foley was average sized and a punching bag for most of his wwe run, and rhino had the exact problem we're discussing here, he (much like mike awesome) seemed big in ecw but then when coming up to the majors his size was nothing to write home about and he floundered, and the dudleys werent really big guys (size wise) even in ecw, so when that is a promotions list of 'monsters' i can definitely understand a credibility/believability problem Didn't get to the second paragraph? Because your rebuttal was the point I was trying to make. They do have good big guys and if they start adding to many more not only will Joe and Rhino start looking more average, you are going to totally dwarf the thing that made TNA unique in the X-division. And with only one show and such a comparatively slim roster compared to WCW and WWE they aren't going to be able to keep them seperated long. WWE can have Evan Bourne fight the average/smaller guys on their roster for long periods so when he does face a Kane or Henry it means something. If they get a super-heavyweight ala Yoko or Bundy then Joe is just chubby short guy and all the time and money put into him is pretty much wasted. Sure they could add maybe a couple more big guys to the mix but if you start feeding Hogan's desire to have more and more huge men it will render the roster they do have pretty meaningless. Which I guess if your watching TNA like that poster above and think AJ and his ilk are all that's wrong with the product is good, but you would be foolish to think this isn't going to be alienating to an audience who grew into TNA watching the AJ's and Daniels and Joes. How many people had grow to appreciate Tomko in TNA while in WWE he was just another goatee'd tribal tatted guy know mainly for saying "NO". |
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Post by Black Swagger on Nov 8, 2009 12:13:30 GMT -5
Hogan wants a great super heavyweight? He should check out Jason Bane. He's a combination of Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow. www.dailymotion.com/video/xaopc5_dave-logan-vs-jason-bane-hybrid-pan_sportHe worked a few shows for IWC last year. The Sandman was champ at the time, so the crowd was filled with old school ECW fans. The crowd largely "poo pooed" everyone they didn't know, except for Bane. "Who is this guy," one fan sitting beside me asked his friend. "He's f***ing scary, dude. Did you see how fast that guy can run?" Another good one is Ray Rowe. He reminds me of Taz, only with more tattoos and slightly better mic skills. Can you imagine RAY ROWE coming in & hitting a few guys with that Death Rowe finisher in TNA? Heck, the guy is fighting Hernandez next week @ International Wrestling Cartel's show. You can bet I'll be there. I hope Hernandez can maybe put in a good word to him to TNA management. |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Nov 8, 2009 12:24:29 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Total_Nonstop_Action_Wrestling_employeesHere is the thing though, TNA isn't really lacking in heavyweights. They have a roster of 38 by wikipedia and it looks pretty complete. Now if your talking tall guys they got Super Mex, Morgan, Nash, that guy in British Invasion who don't do much and probably Tomko. For all around heavier barrel chested Bossman/Brody types you got Abyss, Foley, Joe, Rhino, Ray and Devon, and I'd throw Lashley in here too as he is booked as a monster at the moment. So that's almost 1/4 the roster. i think your answer is evidence of the problem rather than a counterpoint to it, when abyss and joe are two of the guys that top your list as 'monsters' there is definitely a problem, they would look like chumps if they were to go to the wwe or wcw if it were still alive, foley was average sized and a punching bag for most of his wwe run, and rhino had the exact problem we're discussing here, he (much like mike awesome) seemed big in ecw but then when coming up to the majors his size was nothing to write home about and he floundered, and the dudleys werent really big guys (size wise) even in ecw, so when that is a promotions list of 'monsters' i can definitely understand a credibility/believability problem Awesome was big enough they could have matched him up against Kane as who was the better agile monster, with Awesome using a lot of high impact to counter Kane's immunity to pain. |
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Nov 8, 2009 12:25:57 GMT -5
i think your answer is evidence of the problem rather than a counterpoint to it, when abyss and joe are two of the guys that top your list as 'monsters' there is definitely a problem, they would look like chumps if they were to go to the wwe or wcw if it were still alive, foley was average sized and a punching bag for most of his wwe run, and rhino had the exact problem we're discussing here, he (much like mike awesome) seemed big in ecw but then when coming up to the majors his size was nothing to write home about and he floundered, and the dudleys werent really big guys (size wise) even in ecw, so when that is a promotions list of 'monsters' i can definitely understand a credibility/believability problem Didn't get to the second paragraph? Because your rebuttal was the point I was trying to make. They do have good big guys and if they start adding to many more not only will Joe and Rhino start looking more average, you are going to totally dwarf the thing that made TNA unique in the X-division. And with only one show and such a comparatively slim roster compared to WCW and WWE they aren't going to be able to keep them seperated long. WWE can have Evan Bourne fight the average/smaller guys on their roster for long periods so when he does face a Kane or Henry it means something. If they get a super-heavyweight ala Yoko or Bundy then Joe is just chubby short guy and all the time and money put into him is pretty much wasted. Sure they could add maybe a couple more big guys to the mix but if you start feeding Hogan's desire to have more and more huge men it will render the roster they do have pretty meaningless. Which I guess if your watching TNA like that poster above and think AJ and his ilk are all that's wrong with the product is good, but you would be foolish to think this isn't going to be alienating to an audience who grew into TNA watching the AJ's and Daniels and Joes. How many people had grow to appreciate Tomko in TNA while in WWE he was just another goatee'd tribal tatted guy know mainly for saying "NO". actually I think he was saying that some of the guys you list are only "big" compared to some of the smaller guys in TNA and fans can realize that. They need people that you'd be dwarfed by in real life like many of the WWE's big men. |
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 8, 2009 14:05:03 GMT -5
actually I think he was saying that some of the guys you list are only "big" compared to some of the smaller guys in TNA and fans can realize that. They need people that you'd be dwarfed by in real life like many of the WWE's big men. Oh I get that part however they have already been pushing some of those guys as their monsters. Joe and Abyss are average fellers in the WWE. So what happens to them? Plus there is the perspective aspect, Tomko was unique in TNA. He was generic in WWE. Did he grow or get new tats or change his facial hair? Also remember how Undertaker had to adopt the chokeslam because so many of the huge lugs he was paired against were not safe to tombstone? Stylesclash, Musclebuster or even a Blackhole slam on a Bundy-type guy? TNA hasn't done the best job of transitioning the mid-carders into main-eventers but they do try sometimes. If Hogan does bring in a lot of big guys it is going to change how that works. Imagine if you will WCW had kept afloat somehow and basically was still operating today as it had been? Do you think AJ would have even made it to the midcard there. He would have split from Air Paris feuded on saturday night and maybe had a blow-off on Thunder and that would be the extent of his career. People might mention they heard he was talented and someone will refer to him as that jobber from WCW who lost to Meng and Jerry Flynn a lot. What I am hearing from Hogan is that he wants that style back. If people liked that that is fine I do understand that. However, that is not why the people who are watching TNA now are watching TNA. So you run the risk of alienating the fans you do have for the possibility of acquiring fans who may or may not still be out there. I guess whenever I have looked at the shopzone page at WWE I don't remember to many times Umaga or Khali or Big Show or even Kane topped Jeff Hardy or CM Punk or Rey or HBK in merchandising. Hogan and Taker are probably the only 2 big men to make the top of that list and they are definately exceptional cases. And when people requests career retrospective DVDs its never been for a Bundy or Yoko one its been for Jake Roberts, Mr. Perfect, Randy Savage, etc. So I am not even sure there is an audience for those super heavies anymore like there was in Hogan's glory days. Hell over half this forum thinks Joe's obese, imagine what they would have thought of Bundy or Earthquake. |
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Post by hajimenoippo on Nov 8, 2009 15:32:28 GMT -5
Who cares what happens to Abyss and Joe? They'll get booked in the ways they've been booked. Joe hasn't been booked like a monsters unless facing X-division guys, when put up with somebody his size or bigger he loses like to Nash or Lashley. Abyss has NEVER been booked as a monster in TNA with AJ and Jeff Hardy handing his ass to him numerous times it's hard to take a guy who's been the victim of so many things seriously.
With Hernandez you've got a decent sized guy with big muscles, with Morgan you have a lean mean Giant, and after that you've got a body builder in Rob Terry.
I mean they tried to make Brutus Magnus a freaking monster heel.
It's one of the reasons people don't take TNA seriously is their lack of bigger than life stars
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Dragonfly
Unicron
...is no Barry Windham.
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Post by Dragonfly on Nov 8, 2009 15:37:05 GMT -5
Oh... and a few more things:
1) Hogan really didn't have much to do with the XWF. It was 95% Kevin Sullivan, Jimmy Hart, and Brian Knobs. In Jerry Jarrett's book (diary) on the formation of TNA, he constantly referred to the XWF as "Kevin's promotion."
2) The XWF was, what, eight years ago? Things change.
3) The XWF really only had two major "big men" - Emory Hale and Ian Harrison. The rest of the roster was full of has beens (Greg Valentine, Roddy Piper, The Nasty Boys, etc), never weres (Dresden, Billy Fives, Knickles), WCW stars that weren't picked up by the WWF (Prince Iaukea, Norman Smiley, Vampiro), and a handful of guys that would end up becoming stars, but much later on (AJ Styles, Carlito, Christopher Daniels).
4) As bad as Hale was in the XWF, it did net us this classic from Jerry Lawler: "Tell Jimmy [Hart] his coat looks like Hale." (Before the match, Hart cut a promo filled to the brim with "Hale/hell" puns. He then came out wearing a jacket adorned with Hale's face.)
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 8, 2009 16:24:47 GMT -5
Who cares what happens to Abyss and Joe? I would imagine the people who have been watching TNA might care a little bit. TNA had an audience before Hogan and although I am not one of those people who will hate on things for changing and I do understand they might feel they need to go in this direction I am also not a blind follower. I watched TNA because of the guys the hoss supporters in this thread are putting down. I do like big men. But I like when they are used to their strengths not just as background props to make everything look OMG huge. And to book to their strengths they need to be the special attraction. I am not a big guy hater by any means but I do question Hogan's vision. As I stated before he is on air endorsing the careers of Brody, Bam Bam and Vader, but back when those guys paths crossed it was a different story. And while Hogan could make a big guy like Earthquake's career he more often ended up Vadering them. Add into that the fact that TNA was built up around the AJ Styles, Jeff Jarret, Ravens etc. and Hogan's views on those types of wrestlers it just leaves a sinking feeling in the stomach. Now if your someone who thinks Abyss should never job to a midget like AJ then I bet Hogan's idea of how to run TNA is probably going to gel with yours pretty good. The rest of us will reserve our right to be wary and a little depressed. It's one of the reasons people don't take TNA seriously is their lack of bigger than life stars Then again are those the people watching TNA? The people who used to be the TNA audience used to brag about how talented there athletes were while WWF was full of roided up lugs. Those are/were the diehard fans keeping them afloat through the formative years. And Hogan's thing here and Dixie's little unmotivational speech are kind of like a thanks for the last few years but I want to screw someone else letter from your wife/husband. Oh and as for XWF I am sorry if I gave the impression Hogan was responsible for that. I am just saying he liked Hale as their big man and posted a match to show the greatness that was Hale on Earth. (RIP big guy, that pun came out really bad knowing he's passed, sorry. ) |
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Post by hajimenoippo on Nov 8, 2009 17:24:35 GMT -5
Again I'm not saying on who cares what happens because they might take a backseat to newer/more marketable guys. I'm saying Who cares because neither guy has been booked effectively as a monster in TNA unless crushing X-division guys. Joe's not a monster he's a psychopath who likes the cupcakes, Abyss is "the Monster" but not a big man monster he's basically Foley Redux, as pretty much said in the entire foley feud. He's like Leatherface a guy who loves violence. They are different types of monsters as compared to guys like Nash, Morgan, Hernandez. The atypical monster. Joe is a bully who picks on guys smaller than him. When he fights people like Lashley or Hernandez he can't take them one-on-one in fair circumstances. However when he destroys Daniels or AJ (hopefully both at Turning Point  ), he'll be seen as a champ again. He can take out guys using his kicks and submissions, but ever since putting on 40 lbs his speed and stamina have gone into the s***ter, so he's been working more like Tenryu than like Hashimoto...as far as tubby guys go. Abyss needs the hardcore environment to thrive. They stand out in TNA because Abyss has a mask and wears leather, and joe has facepaint and fancy shorts. A guy like Morgan looks like a star. Hernandez is a beast. Tomko was one of their most over guys before he was released. IF the Roster has guys like Abyss, Joe, Morgan, Hernandez, and tomko as their big men, that's a good start. now if they can score Umaga, Rosey and Black pearl to pal around with Joe. If they can score Joe Doering from All Japan. Sign Albert, maybe sign Big Daddy V as WWE did a wonderful job getting the guy over again (he's only 33). If TNA does sign some mid-size but made for TV looks kind of guys like Claudio and Kennedy awesome. not to mention tall dudes like Hero and Big Rig then good stuff. Big Guys who can work are few and far between, but there are guys who are decent and a decent big guy can draw a bigger audience than an awesome small guy. Then again are those the people watching TNA? The people who used to be the TNA audience used to brag about how talented there athletes were while WWF was full of roided up lugs. Those are/were the diehard fans keeping them afloat through the formative years. And Hogan's thing here and Dixie's little unmotivational speech are kind of like a thanks for the last few years but I want to screw someone else letter from your wife/husband. Thing is their audience has grown, and it's their audience. An audience they share with WWE. I don't think the majority of TNA fans are exclusively TNA fans, because when they went head to head with RAW on thursday they did HALF of their usual. Meaning atleast half of their Audience are WWE fans. They need to differentiate themselves with WWE. The matches they put on are different, the roster they have is packed with talent. The thing is they have no idea how to sell themselves to advertisers, TV stations, or have a good marketing campaign. I really Hope bischoff's company helps them. |
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 8, 2009 19:56:22 GMT -5
If they signed the list you had, and I admit those guys do offer something to the product, they are essentially doubling the size of the big men on the roster. It will change the complexion of TNA. Hernandez and Morgan aren't going to stand out as much. Also do you think Hogan even knows who Chris Hero and Brodie Lee are? I can understand the argument that that traditionally was what made wrestling unique but I seriously do not think that is the case anymore. Who was the last Superheavyweight to headline a Wrestlemania? Yokozuna, well maybe you could count Show in the 4-way in 2000 but he was also just fodder for the Rock/Triple H/Foley/McMahon family feud and was first out. Also if they are looking to grow the audience why not look at what is working. www.wweshop.com/ Hogan, Triple H and Undertaker are the biggest guys to even show up on the list of best sellers. Its the Cenas, Ortons, Mysterios, and Hardys who are making people spend money. Even John Morrison who is a mid-carder, albeit an awesome one on the B brand is doing more bank than Kane or Big Show or Khali etc. Who are people actually nostalgic for? www.wweshop.com/Category/OtherSuperstarsUnder the top rated portion the top 5 are Bret Hart, Rick Rude, Mr. Perfect, British Bulldog and the Rock. Down that list aways under the Kung Funaki bandanna you get to Superstar Graham and the Road Warriors and even further down Just past the Joey Styles and Charlie Haas action figures you come to the DVD/Book set of the most important Super-heavyweight in the history of the business in Andre the Giant. In Hogans day there is no way Andre would be outsold by Bret or Rude. |
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Post by marqui78 on Nov 8, 2009 19:58:55 GMT -5
I still think TNA should give Phil Shatter, and Judas a try. People I've talked to think TNA guys seem like midgets compared to WWE guys. Funny thing about the guys One Man Gang was really over so Joe Leduc, and Missing Link. People like to look down on big guys but they draw fans in.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 8, 2009 21:30:08 GMT -5
I still think TNA should give Phil Shatter, and Judas a try. People I've talked to think TNA guys seem like midgets compared to WWE guys. Funny thing about the guys One Man Gang was really over so Joe Leduc, and Missing Link. People like to look down on big guys but they draw fans in. Actually I tend to like a lot of the big guys listed I just don't think they are the missing piece in TNA. In fact I think an influx will make TNA worse instead of better. And besides Hogan's word there is nothing to even asume they will make the product better. The last time guys like One Man Gang, Joe Leduc, and Missing Link were popular was also the same time El Debarge, Zubaz pants, and Gary Coleman were popular. While big men are interesting attractions I just don't see any evidence that that is what TNA is missing, asides form some closed minded people's anecdotal evidence. If big guys were some guaranteed sales why has ROH only had the rare big man like Morishima or Joe champion? Even when they were desperate to turn things around who did they go to? Jerry Lynn then Austin Aries. Well I suppose you could argue that RoH bookers just don't like big guys. What about the WWE, surely you cannot accuse Vince of not liking the huge guys. Yet who is carrying his brands at any given time in recent memory? Punk, Cena, Orton, Edge, HHH, HBK, Jericho and Undertaker as the big guy. |
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Post by marqui78 on Nov 8, 2009 23:51:49 GMT -5
I still think TNA should give Phil Shatter, and Judas a try. People I've talked to think TNA guys seem like midgets compared to WWE guys. Funny thing about the guys One Man Gang was really over so Joe Leduc, and Missing Link. People like to look down on big guys but they draw fans in. Actually I tend to like a lot of the big guys listed I just don't think they are the missing piece in TNA. In fact I think an influx will make TNA worse instead of better. And besides Hogan's word there is nothing to even asume they will make the product better. The last time guys like One Man Gang, Joe Leduc, and Missing Link were popular was also the same time El Debarge, Zubaz pants, and Gary Coleman were popular. While big men are interesting attractions I just don't see any evidence that that is what TNA is missing, asides form some closed minded people's anecdotal evidence. If big guys were some guaranteed sales why has ROH only had the rare big man like Morishima or Joe champion? Even when they were desperate to turn things around who did they go to? Jerry Lynn then Austin Aries. Well I suppose you could argue that RoH bookers just don't like big guys. What about the WWE, surely you cannot accuse Vince of not liking the huge guys. Yet who is carrying his brands at any given time in recent memory? Punk, Cena, Orton, Edge, HHH, HBK, Jericho and Undertaker as the big guy. Yeah but even in Y2J, HBK, and Edge make AJ look really small. I think if Vince had his way he would. Take Cena for instance he has alot of TNA guys in height, weight, and look really. I love watching AJ, Daniels, and Joe but TNA never tried this. ROH in my honest opinion shouldn't be in the conversation. Now that their on hard times they're trying to get bigger guys in. I rather AJ and Daniels have a Steamboat/Savage type feud. To me AJ would the perfect IC type of champion. I just don't see the general public buying him as the face of a company. Even Joe was great a wrestler he is same with him. Morgan could be that guy in my opinion. AJ to me is the HBK of TNA. Daniels is like the Y2J of the company good to great consistent matches. Even with the tag teams. I known that the Midnight Express, and RNR, and Rockers were great workers. Yet and still LOD was the team everyone wanted to see and feared. I believe TNA needs to do this. Get several big talented young workers in the 6'3 to 250 and up category. Then sign workers with charisma and go mic skills. Get Spike TV to actually promote your show the best they can. TNA also should take advantage of some young bigs WWE didn't do anything with. Like the young guy TNA once had Trytan, Brad Attitude, Jay Bradley, Al Barone, and Big Daddy V. Thing is I watch the fans reaction to those big bruisers and they eat it up. |
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 9, 2009 0:51:22 GMT -5
You honestly believe the fans eat up Trytan, Brad Attitude, etc. more than Styles? Styles is consistently the biggest pop of the show. Heck Eric Young gets a bigger pop then all those guys did.
And still your comparing the old way things were to the reality of the way things are. You say AJ and Daniels are the HBK and Jericho of TNA well those two guys are the most decorated among the current roster. Y2J is the only man to have won all the current titles on the 2 major brands and HBK is the first since before the Hogan era to win the triple crown. LoD was bigger then the Rockers but again that was 20 years ago. The Dudleys and Acolytes were the big guy teams the last time WWF featured tag titles and the break outs from that era were the Hardy's and Edge and Christian. Granted well after that era was over Bradshaw did get a good run at the top but he made that work because of his charisma and mic work more than his size. Even in his feud with Rey whom he dwarfed it wasn't about his size as much as his evil whitey keeping the plucky young Mexican down character.
When since WCW folded has wrestling excelled with a big guy as the face of the company? It's not like the big guys quit getting made after Sid its just that things have shifted. I mean they have tried with various monsters holding the ECW title but when they go to the main shows the pop just dies out, and granted that happened with Matt Hardy and Chavo also, but CM Punk was able to take the ball and run and Morrison is not doing to bad now either. Jack Swagger and Christian are more likely future Raw or Smackdown champions then Mark Henry or Kane.
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Post by Richard on Nov 9, 2009 0:59:06 GMT -5
Y2J is the only man to have won all the current titles on the 2 major brands Edge did it long before Jericho. |
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Post by hajimenoippo on Nov 9, 2009 1:07:15 GMT -5
Jack Swagger is a big man
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Post by MichaelMartini on Nov 9, 2009 1:24:04 GMT -5
I agree with Hogan. TNA is short on the big monster type guys. I think most people against this are imagining them squashing top stars like AJ and Daniels. Did you ever consider maybe it's to help make these guys look even better? It's not like Gail Kim and Taylor Wilde weren't able to beat Kong. AJ, Joe or whoever will still stand out because they will be the only smaller guys capable of beating monsters. Hopefully Hogan and Eric learned their lessons from seeing the success WWE had putting Eddie, Benoit, Rey and Jericho in the main event while WCW kept them stuck in the mid card.
Fact is, they have tonnes of smaller guys and next to no superheavyweights. I don't see a problem with wanting a few.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Nov 9, 2009 1:26:14 GMT -5
Edge did it long before Jericho. Indeed he did, I stand corrected I forgot his US title reign. Jack Swagger is a big man Swagger is tall but seriously though, do you think Hogan was thinking Swagger when he mentioned big guys and cited Bundy, Bam Bam, Brody, Vader as examples. |
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Nov 9, 2009 1:42:33 GMT -5
1) Why is it that smaller guys can get over in MMA but the "big guy=money" Stereotype still exists in wrestling
2) TNA currently has:
Desmond
Tomko (I think he attacked AJ)
Hernandez
Morgan
Rob Terry
All of those are pretty big. Remember that 2 of the most popular WWE guys of late were John Cena and Jeff Hardy. Neither is superhuge. Indicating that McMahon, at least, is willing to move on from the bigger=better stereotype. TNA is trying to compete with WWE. Unfortunately, it's trying to compete with the version of WWE that existed in the 80s, when people who got pushed were roidmonsters.
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deeks
Trap-Jaw
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Post by deeks on Nov 9, 2009 1:54:58 GMT -5
Remember that 2 of the most popular WWE guys of late were John Cena and Jeff Hardy. Neither is superhuge. Indicating that McMahon, at least, is willing to move on from the bigger=better stereotype. TNA is trying to compete with WWE. Unfortunately, it's trying to compete with the version of WWE that existed in the 80s, when people who got pushed were roidmonsters. Umm...yeah  |
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), he'll be seen as a champ again. He can take out guys using his kicks and submissions, but ever since putting on 40 lbs his speed and stamina have gone into the s***ter, so he's been working more like Tenryu than like Hashimoto...as far as tubby guys go.
