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Post by Smokey McTrees on Mar 30, 2010 8:52:57 GMT -5
haha I was wondering if you'd post something like that! And I was NOT disappointed! Yeah...but the "match" was a train wreck...I love Bret but man, it was so....lame.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2010 8:55:29 GMT -5
The problem with the beating was it was so uncreative. They should atleast had Bret do the chair around the ankle and stomp on it spot, and the ringpost figure four.
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Gummydavidson
Dennis Stamp
Johnny Davidson for Prime Minister!
Posts: 3,933
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Post by Gummydavidson on Mar 30, 2010 9:05:49 GMT -5
The problem with the beating was it was so uncreative. They should atleast had Bret do the chair around the ankle and stomp on it spot, and the ringpost figure four. Noway could Bret of done a ringpost figure four lol
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Post by The Ipod Sting on Mar 30, 2010 10:03:25 GMT -5
The ending was exactly right. As a big fan of Bret, that's the best I can say about the match. I was frustrated by watching it. Here's how I would have booked the lead-up:
After the broken leg reveal, McMahon shows up on the entrance ramp on Smackdown! during Hart Dynasty tag team match. The distraction causes the Hart Dynasty to lose.
McMahon confronts them in the ring and orders them to assist at Wrestlemania or he will screw them out of the company just like he did Bret, and it will be 13 years before anyone sees or hears from them again, their contracts will be torn up, they'll be FIIIIRED etc.
The next Raw Bret does his promo, and Vince comes out same as, with his "...either way - YOU'RE SCREWED." shtick. The Hart Dynasty walk out and flank McMahon. Bret is looking worried.
At WM the intros are done. Here's the thing. There is no Hart family. Nobody in the audience really knows who they are anyway - hell, I've seem Wrestling with Shadows and I didn't recognise half of them! It was a waste of most people's time them being there.
Vince comes out with the Hart Dynasty. Vince reveals that Tyson and DH are special ringside enforcers, Nattie is the special referee. All 3 are in Vince's corner as the bell rings. Bret is basically wailing on VKM but Nattie is breaking up the action when Bret is beating on VKM in the corner.
Bret is exasperated with her! He throws Vince to the outside. Tyson and DH crowd round him, dust him off, help him back to the ring, stand in there with him until he slowly, in a dazed fashion, gets back to his feet.
They really have sided with Vince! The crowd are booing! Bret has brought in a chair as Tyson and DH return to their outside enforcer roles. Bret hoists it back to take a swing at Vince and Nattie grabs it out of his hands and gets in Bret's face. What the hell is going on here?
Bret's back is turned, Vince turns him around and kicks him square in the nuts. Bret drops to his knees. Massive heat in the crowd! Vince is stalking around Bret similar to when Batista was holding him on Raw a few weeks back, getting in his face, shouting etc.
He calls DH and Tyson back into the ring, who are looking a bit more apprehensive after the nut shot, looking back and forth between Vince and Bret.
Vince gets a mic and wants to see the original Hart attack performed on Bret by Tyson and DH, and orders DH to hoist him up. They reluctantly agree. Bret is up in the bear hug. Tyson is up on the top rope. The crowd are booing, all 3 look doubtful now. Vince is playing to the boos, mocking the Bret ring strut.
Real Darth Vader/Luke/Emperor moment here!
I liked this idea the someone mentioned earlier ... Vince gives the thumbs up for the Hart attack. Tyson matches the thumbs up. Vince turns to Nattie, who mirrors the thumbs up .... and turns them into the thumbs down with a stony serious face. WHAM! Slap across the face just like on Sunday night!
DH puts down Bret, Vince reels into DH and gets hoisted up into the bearhug. Tyson takes Vinces head off with the Hart Attack! Dynasty and Bret hug in the ring just like when Bret re-united the Hart Foundation for their '97 run.
Bret picks up the chair and waits for Vince to get to his feet, then wraps the chair around him to a massive pop. Vince is on the mat again, looking out for the count. Bret teases the sharpshooter for the first and only time, soaks in the crowd, them synches it up tight.
Nattie is still the referee. Vince is tapping manically as Bret leans back on the sharpshooter, with Nattie saying "I can't hear you Vince!". Vince screams "I quit!!" over and over and the bell is called. Bret releases after a few more seconds and has his moment in front of the crowd.
If they must, then the rest of the Hart family can come down.
This would run to 10 minutes from ring entrances to the bell, and everyone gets out of it what they should.
Vince is still the heel boss trying to screw the Harts, who gets his comuppance not once, but twice
Bret gets his Wrestlemania moment, it's obvious he would have beaten Vince single-handledly in the first half of the match when the Dynasty are protecting Vince. The pace is slow still, so doesn't show up any of Bret's limitations. Just as importantly it keeps the crowd onside.
Dynasty get their rub, and a face turn. They always looked troubled by what they were asked to do by Vince, and while they protected him at first they never actually attacked Bret. The seeds of doubt in their mind were sown by the nut shot, and the attempted Hart Attack on Bret was the kicker in their conflict between family and job.
Honestly, I would sit through an entire last 6 months of WCW Nitros just to rewind WM and have the Bret/Vince confrontation end this way.
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Post by Brother Ike: Thread Killer on Mar 30, 2010 10:37:31 GMT -5
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spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
Posts: 5,665
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Post by spagett on Mar 30, 2010 13:27:22 GMT -5
Bret Hart is my favourite wrestler of all time and in my opinion the greatest wrestler of all time.
And yet.
I found the match with Vince one of the worst Wrestlemania matches of all time and I was actually getting quite depressed at this car wreck being his last ever match.
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Post by stormwrestling on Mar 30, 2010 13:41:16 GMT -5
Only good thing about it was the finish, tbh
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El Dandy
Don Corleone
Who are you to doubt El Dandy?
Posts: 1,901
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Post by El Dandy on Mar 30, 2010 14:08:38 GMT -5
FYI, Bret has lost a lot of strength in the life side of his body as a result of his stroke. He really is not in any condition to compete. More or less, Bret wanted to give the "rub" to the Hart Dynasty by having them involved somehow in the match and avenging his screwjob by screwing Vince. I can't believe how many of you expected more from a stroke victim.
It is what it was and I didn't expect anything more or less. The attraction was having Bret Hart back in the WWE, not him "wrestling."
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Mar 30, 2010 14:14:20 GMT -5
- The double swerve at the beginning was stupid.
- I marked for the Hart Attack and Natalya slapping him.
- I marked for Natalya's ass.
- I got bored for about 5-10 minutes.
- I marked when he teased the Sharpshooter, then he...didn't do it. So I got bored again as he was beating him down with a chair for what seemed like forever.
- He finally did the Sharpshooter and I was happy to see it, but he shouldn't have teased it initially.
- I marked for Natalya some more.
Overall, I was underwhelmed, to say the least.
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Post by Germansuplex on Mar 30, 2010 16:59:35 GMT -5
It was horrible.
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Post by Ryushinku on Mar 31, 2010 6:07:58 GMT -5
Everyone's said it, but really they would've been better off just cutting the time in half.
Really, when Bret first teased the Sharpshooter, that would've been good to finish it. Instead we got more stomps, punches, chairshotchairshotchairshotchairshotchairshot and about three or four more teases by which point the crowd was dead.
I think it's a case where they had a specific time slot to fill and they probably should've called it sooner.
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Greer
Unicron
Points. Don't. Matter.
Posts: 3,199
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Post by Greer on Mar 31, 2010 6:21:31 GMT -5
Just like with the Invasion and ECW. WWE always screws up the easiest storylines to book. Exactly that.
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Post by Schattenjager on Mar 31, 2010 6:44:25 GMT -5
I don't think it was the physical limitations of Bret and Vince that ruined the match, I think it was the fact that the Lloyds of London dictated what can and can not take place in the match. Bret wasn't allowed to be put on a hold or do anything overly physical, or else he would have been sued for millions and millions of dollars. So the match was what it was.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Mar 31, 2010 8:09:55 GMT -5
I thought they had a really good idea that suffered from absolutely horrible execution.
First, as a side note, I'd like to say that I never realized how hot Natalya was until Wrestlemania. And my god, what a rack.
That being said.....
We all already knew that Bret can't really take even a basic bump, so the fact that Vince got absolutely no offense shouldn't surprise anyone at all. And given his physical condition, even his offense is going to look weak.
Getting the rest of the Hart family involved was an excellent way to cover all that up, while also helping to get the Hart Dynasty over a bit. However, the problem is the execution of it.
Bret was never very good on the mic, but he can't cut a promo to save his life these days. It's not all his fault, as I'm sure the strokes have had some effect on his timing. But my god, was that promo at the beginning god-awful. He went on way, way too long, and was stumbling on his words right from the beginning. What made it especially bad is that Bret really didn't need to say much:
Vince comes out and cuts his promo about screwing bret and buying off the Hart family. (He could have scored huge bonus points by saying he was being financed by new HOF inductee Ted Dibiase.) Vince gets in the ring with Bruce (the ref). When going to shake Bruce's hand, Bruce turns on Vince, turns around, and smiles at Bret. Bret and Bruce dump Vince on the outside, and the rest of the family beats him down. Match continues as we saw it, minus some of the parts that dragged on too long. After Vince taps, he looks at Bret and Bruce as if to say "What happened? Why?.....". Bret grabs the mic and says "If there's one thing I learned at Montreal, there's nothing like a good double cross." They dump Vince out of the ring, and pose.
I think that scenario would have worked out better.
But for what it's worth, the match was about what I expected, outside of dragging on for way too long. Anybody expecting anything even resembling a regular -- or even passable -- match was setting themselves up for disappointment.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Mar 31, 2010 8:11:39 GMT -5
I don't think it was the physical limitations of Bret and Vince that ruined the match, I think it was the fact that the Lloyds of London dictated what can and can not take place in the match. Bret wasn't allowed to be put on a hold or do anything overly physical, or else he would have been sued for millions and millions of dollars. So the match was what it was. I'd be interested to know where you got this information. I'm not questioning you, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of it. I'm just interested in reading it.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Mar 31, 2010 8:26:13 GMT -5
I don't think it was the physical limitations of Bret and Vince that ruined the match, I think it was the fact that the Lloyds of London dictated what can and can not take place in the match. Bret wasn't allowed to be put on a hold or do anything overly physical, or else he would have been sued for millions and millions of dollars. So the match was what it was. I'd be interested to know where you got this information. I'm not questioning you, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of it. I'm just interested in reading it. Bret got a settlement from Lloyds after he retired. Those things don't exactly say "Here's 10 million dollars... but if you want to go wrestle again, feel free."
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Post by Schattenjager on Mar 31, 2010 8:37:11 GMT -5
I don't think it was the physical limitations of Bret and Vince that ruined the match, I think it was the fact that the Lloyds of London dictated what can and can not take place in the match. Bret wasn't allowed to be put on a hold or do anything overly physical, or else he would have been sued for millions and millions of dollars. So the match was what it was. I'd be interested to know where you got this information. I'm not questioning you, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of it. I'm just interested in reading it. It was posted somewhere a month or so before WrestleMania. I'm sorry I can't point you to the source and can't actually verify it's validity and could be wrong, but someone basically posted on a news site that don't expect a lot from the Bret/Vince match since the Lloyds have their say over what can take place in the match and what Bret is allowed to do. So take it with a grain of salt since I don't have the source, but personally, I wasn't surprised to see how the match turned out. Bret got the settlement after he was able to prove that there was no way, shape or form that he could ever make a living in pro wrestling again, so he had to agree to never wrestle again or he would get sued for every dime he has. Sad but true and I blame Goldberg and his mule kick of death.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Mar 31, 2010 8:42:21 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know where you got this information. I'm not questioning you, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of it. I'm just interested in reading it. Bret got a settlement from Lloyds after he retired. Those things don't exactly say "Here's 10 million dollars... but if you want to go wrestle again, feel free." As I said in my request, I don't question the validity of it at all. But given the detail that he had stated, i thought there was something online specifically stating what he could and couldn't do. Would've made for an interesting read.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Mar 31, 2010 8:49:52 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know where you got this information. I'm not questioning you, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of it. I'm just interested in reading it. It was posted somewhere a month or so before WrestleMania. I'm sorry I can't point you to the source and can't actually verify it's validity and could be wrong, but someone basically posted on a news site that don't expect a lot from the Bret/Vince match since the Lloyds have their say over what can take place in the match and what Bret is allowed to do. So take it with a grain of salt since I don't have the source, but personally, I wasn't surprised to see how the match turned out. As I said above, I don't question the existence of it at all. I just figured the details would make for an interesting read. And after what we saw during the buildup to Wrestlemania, I'm surprised there were so many people expecting the match to be better than it was. We all were genuinely worried about Bret even taking a basic bump, yet some people were shocked to see Vince get no offense at all. A few were actually expecting something closer to a regular match. Can you really blame Goldberg? I'm not saying that he was the greatest ring technician in the world, but at the same time, I don't like the idea of blaming him for something he didn't do intentionally. Accidents happen. It's all a part of the business. And that includes delivering a shot that ended up being much stiffer than originally intended. Unfortuantely, this one cost Bret his career. Go back and watch the kick. Goldberg's only mistake was that he stood too close and didn't give Bret enough time to get his hands up and protect himself. Had he stood about a foot back, giving bret the extra half-second to get his hands all the way up, Bret would've been fine. Sure, Goldberg made a mistake, but it's a mistake that any wrestler is capable of making. It's sad that Bret's career ended that way. But I don't blame Goldberg.
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Mar 31, 2010 12:46:17 GMT -5
In about 5 minutes I can come up with a better execution of this match, it was truly awful and I love Bret. My idea even sticks with the double swerve, kind of, as well....
So Vince brings out the Hart Dynasty who are already known heels and says he has hired then to beat up Bret, they're in the ring about to corner Bret but turn on Vince in a similar to the ECW guys in '01 on Jericho and Kane. Have Nattie hit him with a low blow, this whole thing re-started with a low blow, Hart Attack by Smith and Kidd, Dynasty hold Vince up for a chair shot (blood would add to it but it's not a necessity), Sharpshooter and Vince Taps.
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