mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 19, 2010 12:39:46 GMT -5
Outside of the way he sold the big boot, what Shawn did for most of that match didn't look any different than the way he sold for babyfaces in the early to mid-90's. The way he sold his head being rammed into a turnbuckle or the way he flipped himself around.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 19, 2010 12:42:46 GMT -5
Wasn't Shawn Michaels responsible for Owen Hart not getting a WWF title push with him after Bret left? Pretty sure Jim Cornette brought that up in an interview once... considering HBK only had about four more months on top I doubt it. I think that was Austin, who might have been pissed about his neck injury or might have simply felt it'd be bad for his health.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 19, 2010 13:01:15 GMT -5
Exactly. He was incredibly easy to work with, and your match was guaranteed to be the hottest one on the card. Plus I still don't think he was overselling to bury Hogan. He always oversold as a heel, like Mr. Perfect. Watch In Your House: DX, he pulls some of the same stuff out vs Shamrock. Let's be honest, HBK taking boring back bumps for a 50 something Hogan wouldn't have been anywhere near as entertaining. The thing about HBK's selling in that match is Perfect did some of the same things more than 10 years prior, but some how he did it so it didn't look comical, even if they were almost identical. Maybe that's why people had the reaction they did. HBK and Hogan, no matter what the reason was, did a very old school face vs heel superman match, and it looked very bizarre out of the time period.
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andrewgilkison
Bubba Ho-Tep
Sound of 300lbs of crap hitting the fan?
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Post by andrewgilkison on Sept 19, 2010 16:30:21 GMT -5
Outside of the way he sold the big boot, what Shawn did for most of that match didn't look any different than the way he sold for babyfaces in the early to mid-90's. The way he sold his head being rammed into a turnbuckle or the way he flipped himself around. All of which he did ALL THE TIME when he was a heel, both in the early 90's and the late 90's before his back injury.
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Post by hbk4ever09 on Sept 19, 2010 16:36:49 GMT -5
Yeah, watch his HIAC with Taker; he sells in a ton of similar ways. I think almost every sell he did in that match (other than the big boot) he's pretty much done in a match before.
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Post by Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal on Sept 19, 2010 16:46:37 GMT -5
Yeah, watch his HIAC with Taker; he sells in a ton of similar ways. I think almost every sell he did in that match (other than the big boot) he's pretty much done in a match before. Haha I think you need to rewatch the Summerslam match. There are moments where it's like a 20's slapstick comedy. Personally I think HBK had every right to do that though. If you're going to suspend disbelief that a wrestler in his 50's can beat a guy like HBK, who was beating guys like Vader and Yoko in his prime, then you should suspend disbelief with how the victim takes the hits. It's all pretty cartoony in general that Hogan beats anybody when he's old, slow and only has 4 moves (punch, bodyslam, big boot, bodyslam). Because then the question becomes.. if he doesn't sell it like this old foagie has SUPER strength, what does he do? Sell it like he's any normal wrestler? Well that's pretty insane, because he's NOT. So the match itself is a write-off because you automatically watch knowing that realistically this would never happen. HBK would school him in 2 minutes. So putting Sell on VERY HIGH isn't crazy to me at all. Made a match a million times more entertaining and believable.
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Post by Trent Valentine on Sept 19, 2010 17:10:02 GMT -5
Wasn't Shawn Michaels responsible for Owen Hart not getting a WWF title push with him after Bret left? Pretty sure Jim Cornette brought that up in an interview once... considering HBK only had about four more months on top I doubt it. I think that was Austin, who might have been pissed about his neck injury or might have simply felt it'd be bad for his health. Actually, word is, Owen was supposed to be pushed towards the World Title against Michaels, but HBK for whatever reason didn't like Owen and didn't want to drop the belt to him, so instead they had Owen feud with his sidekick HHH for the European Title which they traded back and forth.
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Post by Hugh Mungus on Sept 19, 2010 17:34:50 GMT -5
considering HBK only had about four more months on top I doubt it. I think that was Austin, who might have been pissed about his neck injury or might have simply felt it'd be bad for his health. Actually, word is, Owen was supposed to be pushed towards the World Title against Michaels, but HBK for whatever reason didn't like Owen and didn't want to drop the belt to him, so instead they had Owen feud with his sidekick HHH for the European Title which they traded back and forth. Source please, or it never happened. I also read a rumor that Michaels was pissed at Austin for not jobbing to HHH at SummerSlam 99. Of course, that was a bunch of hogwash.
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Post by seamonsters on Sept 19, 2010 18:12:39 GMT -5
Davey Boy Smith dedicated a European Championship title match (that he knew he was winning) he was having with Shawn Michaels, to his dying sister. Well, Shawn got Vince to change the finish so that Shawn won the title instead. Bret Hart said Davy Boy Smith was never the same after that. A title that Michaels defended all of twice - once in a title v title match against Owen, and once in the "fingerpoke of doom" style match against HHH, who rather than drop the title to Owen, had a replacement (Goldust in a wig with a fake nose) defend the title instead. 'No condition to perform' back when during his commish days, right? As an aside, I don't know why Taker never broke his foot off in his ass a few times. Strangely enough, in all these situations, Taker never actually does anything, other than make threats. I reckon Taker's all mouth. Why does everyone keep constantly saying he didn't want to "job" to Austin? He wasn't jobbing to anyone, he was simply dropping the title, it's not like they wanted him to get pinned 2 minutes into the match. Huge difference between jobbing and losing clean. Huge difference between what wrestlers consider "doing the job" and what smarks consider "jobbing". There are a lot of wrestlers who hate doing the job they're paid to do - being pinned, or submitting, and f they have to lose, would rather lose by DQ, or CO, or by their opponent escaping a steel cage, or their opponent retreiving something using a ladder. There are a huge number of wrestlers who saw guys like Hogan politicking and Dusty Rhodes run the book while always being one champion or another, and took the attitude that they didn't want to lose either, which is why guys like John Studd, LOD, Piper, Savage and Michaels ever lost by pinfall or submission, once they reached a certain stage. And if there's one thing Shawn Michaels has hated doing down the years, it's being pinned for his titles - look at the titles he's won: 3 WWE titles - the first he was pinned by Sid after being hit with a monitor (easily the heaviest weapon used in the WWE to that point) - the second, he vacated due to a lost smile - the third (against Austin), he lost only after being persuaded to take part in a match 1 World title - in a best of three falls match against HHH - the deciding fall being a ladder match 3 Intercontinental title - pinned by Marty Jannetty in the only one of four TV matches they had for the belt, knowing he was getting the belt back - vacated, after being suspended (allegedly for failing a drug test) - vacated, after being "injured" by between 1 and 8 marines (depending on reports), rather than face Shane Douglas, after making being caught suggesting he was going to make a fool of Douglas 1 European title - "pinned" by HHH after a fingerpoke of doom style match 5 Tag Team titles - with Diesel, vacated after falloing out at Survivor Series - with Diesel, belts returned after Michaels pinned Owen Hart, despite British Bulldog replacing Hart in the match - with Austin, vacated (replaced by Foley), after being "injured" in a backstage fight with Bret Hart, because of the "Sunny Days comments" - with Cena, lost after Michaels threw Cena over the top rope in a tag team battle royal for the titles - pinned by The Miz In all, he lost just 5 out of 13 titles by pinfall, one of those in a joke match, and another one he did under duress. Wasn't Shawn Michaels responsible for Owen Hart not getting a WWF title push with him after Bret left? Pretty sure Jim Cornette brought that up in an interview once... considering HBK only had about four more months on top I doubt it. I think that was Austin, who might have been pissed about his neck injury or might have simply felt it'd be bad for his health. Austin hadn't got any real backstage pull at that point, whereas Michaels (and the rest of Kliq before they left) had had the most backstage power over the previous three years, killing the pushes of Mabel, Bigelow, Bulldog, and Owen in the process. Owen went from attacking Shawn at the end of the December PPV to beating him by DQ in his only match for the title (thanks to interference from HHH) to being placed in a feud with an injured HHH (he started the feud on crutches, and they didn't wrestle one on one for three months). Clearly the plan was for Shawn to face Owen at the 1998 Rumble, but Shawn managed to veto it, in favour of facing The Undertaker in the casket match that would injure his back, and see him retired for four years.
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namso
AC Slater
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Post by namso on Sept 19, 2010 18:40:10 GMT -5
The one where he pooped on that guys birthday cake.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Sept 19, 2010 19:54:20 GMT -5
Michaels gets the classic "I've repented for my past wrongdoings" reprieve from a lot of people on this forum and others. He worked hard and put on a lot of great matches after his "back injury", so he obviously deserves a good ol' second chance that centuries old organizations grant no matter how much of a douche you were. Shawn could be a legit good guy that turned 100% good after he met his wife, I don't know. I know plenty of people that hide behind the idea of a second chance, that aren't sincere, so why wouldn't I hold Shawn Michaels to the same standard? In my book, just because you're sorry for your past doesn't mean you've earned 100% repentance.
Then again, I don't know the man personally, he's never screwed me over... So why do I care?
I really shouldn't, but for some stupid reason I do. Neither should you.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Sept 19, 2010 21:31:52 GMT -5
Michaels gets the classic "I've repented for my past wrongdoings" reprieve from a lot of people on this forum and others. He worked hard and put on a lot of great matches after his "back injury", so he obviously deserves a good ol' second chance that centuries old organizations grant no matter how much of a douche you were. Shawn could be a legit good guy that turned 100% good after he met his wife, I don't know. I know plenty of people that hide behind the idea of a second chance, that aren't sincere, so why wouldn't I hold Shawn Michaels to the same standard? In my book, just because you're sorry for your past doesn't mean you've earned 100% repentance. Then again, I don't know the man personally, he's never screwed me over... So why do I care? I really shouldn't, but for some stupid reason I do. Neither should you. That's my problem with Michaels. He came back a changed man, but during the whole thing with Hogan, the guy could not turn the other cheek. And people can say what they want, there is a difference about being magnanimous about doing the job, and crying like a baby when someone orders you to do it. And to counter the argument about having to sell like a clown to make it believable because of Hogan's age, explain the Wrestlemania match with Flair. I mean if Hogan looks old, Flair looks like a corpse. By the logic of many posters, Michaels should have gone into convulsions when Flair hit any move. But he didn't. Why? Well the outcome was what he wanted.
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Post by Lazy peon on Sept 19, 2010 21:53:35 GMT -5
The one where he pooped on that guys birthday cake. "No, I wanted a SHEET cake!"
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Sept 20, 2010 7:48:48 GMT -5
The one where he pooped on that guys birthday cake. "No, I wanted a SHEET cake!" lol, fantastic!
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"Hollywood" Cactus Matt
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by "Hollywood" Cactus Matt on Sept 20, 2010 16:08:28 GMT -5
Michaels gets the classic "I've repented for my past wrongdoings" reprieve from a lot of people on this forum and others. He worked hard and put on a lot of great matches after his "back injury", so he obviously deserves a good ol' second chance that centuries old organizations grant no matter how much of a douche you were. Shawn could be a legit good guy that turned 100% good after he met his wife, I don't know. I know plenty of people that hide behind the idea of a second chance, that aren't sincere, so why wouldn't I hold Shawn Michaels to the same standard? In my book, just because you're sorry for your past doesn't mean you've earned 100% repentance. Then again, I don't know the man personally, he's never screwed me over... So why do I care? I really shouldn't, but for some stupid reason I do. Neither should you. That's my problem with Michaels. He came back a changed man, but during the whole thing with Hogan, the guy could not turn the other cheek. And people can say what they want, there is a difference about being magnanimous about doing the job, and crying like a baby when someone orders you to do it. And to counter the argument about having to sell like a clown to make it believable because of Hogan's age, explain the Wrestlemania match with Flair. I mean if Hogan looks old, Flair looks like a corpse. By the logic of many posters, Michaels should have gone into convulsions when Flair hit any move. But he didn't. Why? Well the outcome was what he wanted. I'm not going to defend what HBK did, because I'm a fan of both HBK and Hogan. But I look at it like this: who "needed" the win more? Hulk Hogan, who was going to almost immediately go back into retirement and was broken-down and far past his prime by this point in time, or Shawn Michaels, who was still an active member of the roster for a couple of years after the match, and was immediately placed into a feud with Chris freaking Masters the night after putting Hogan over? I'd be kinda pissed, too, if my boss came to me and said, "I want you to make this old guy look good, because we're paying him a metric f***-ton of money. As a reward for doing so, you will be working with someone with less than half the skill you do, in an attempt to make others give a damn about him." So yeah ... I'm not saying what HBK did was right (or wrong), but I can understand completely why he did it. Changed man or not, you have to stand up for your principles. It wasn't going to - and didn't - ruin Michaels's career, but when you still have professional pride, sometimes your passion overrides your common sense.
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