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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 12:47:14 GMT -5
These groups who will send the police to arrest you and take away your kid for spanking your child are trying to force us to not spank our children. It was the Grandmother who alerted the police, actually. What groups are sending the police to arrest you if you hit your children? Show me the groups then. www.rainbowhousecrc.org/While some of what they do is good, they have been known to go after people simply for spanking their kids. They've even been known to sneak into classrooms under the guise of providing sex education, only to spend far more time talking about how we should tell them or our teachers if our parents spank us so we can send them to jail. And where there's 1 group in so small a place as where I grew up, you can bet there are others elsewhere.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:02:56 GMT -5
It was the Grandmother who alerted the police, actually. What groups are sending the police to arrest you if you hit your children? Show me the groups then. www.rainbowhousecrc.org/While some of what they do is good, they have been known to go after people simply for spanking their kids. They've even been known to sneak into classrooms under the guise of providing sex education, only to spend far more time talking about how we should tell them or our teachers if our parents spank us so we can send them to jail. And where there's 1 group in so small a place as where I grew up, you can bet there are others elsewhere. Any citations or objective articles I can read that support what you're saying? Not that I don't necessarily believe you but that my city also has an organisation that attempts to prevent child abuse and they have yet to do anything like sneaking into classrooms. Of course, I also have to wonder if you may be exaggerating, misrepresenting them or this is entirely conjecture on your part. I don't doubt that advocacy groups that want to prevent child abuse exist, but I do doubt that there are as many as you'd have me believe who send police around to doors to arrest parents.
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Legion
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Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,981
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Post by Legion on Jun 18, 2011 13:03:49 GMT -5
This is a sad f***ing world, man...I truly fear for future generations. Haha, you fear for future generations who might consider more appropriate forms of discipline than physical abuse? Yes, certainly something to weep over. Of course, that will never be the case anyhow. There are too many parents who don't know anything but "smack" when their child is out of line. This is an. isolated. incident. folks -- relax. You can still smack around your kids all you want. Well, how would you discipline a child? Especially one who is only a toddler and doesnt really understand how having stuff taken away or being grounded sucks? This one clearly smacked a bit too hard if red makrs remained a while after the smack, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking a child to show it it has done wrong. As it grows up you can then do the non-physical punishments when they'll actually mean something, but having the knowledge that a smack can be given out and it will hurt and it means you did wrong is a fine basis to discipline from. As has already been said, there is a massive difference between correcting a child and abusing a child.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:12:52 GMT -5
I'm not going to go digging around the internet to find something that shows what I already know from having grown up around this particular group. You want that, you can find it on your own.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:14:44 GMT -5
Haha, you fear for future generations who might consider more appropriate forms of discipline than physical abuse? Yes, certainly something to weep over. Of course, that will never be the case anyhow. There are too many parents who don't know anything but "smack" when their child is out of line. This is an. isolated. incident. folks -- relax. You can still smack around your kids all you want. Well, how would you discipline a child? Especially one who is only a toddler and doesnt really understand how having stuff taken away or being grounded sucks? This one clearly smacked a bit too hard if red makrs remained a while after the smack, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking a child to show it it has done wrong. As it grows up you can then do the non-physical punishments when they'll actually mean something, but having the knowledge that a smack can be given out and it will hurt and it means you did wrong is a fine basis to discipline from. As has already been said, there is a massive difference between correcting a child and abusing a child. Any form of physical abuse is abuse. You can try to redefine as "correcting" if you wish, but it is abuse none the less. Do you really believe that physically assaulting your infant is the best course of action? I find that distractions work very well for misbehaving children. My, almost, two year old niece throws tantrums when she wants something but can be easily dissuaded if she is distracted by another activity. Verbal reprimands are also usually affective; a firm "No" tends to work quite well (even if the success rate isn't always 100%). And remember, children learn more from positive reinforcement than they do negative; make sure to always praise your child when it is doing something right. Neither of my siblings hit their children and they have all turned out to be wonderful, docile, friendly, loving, affectionate kids.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:15:06 GMT -5
I'm not going to go digging around the internet to find something that shows what I already know from having grown up around this particular group. You want that, you can find it on your own. Uh, you made the claim, you back it up. That's how it works.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:18:10 GMT -5
I'm not going to go digging around the internet to find something that shows what I already know from having grown up around this particular group. You want that, you can find it on your own. Uh, you made the claim, you back it up. That's how it works. I claim that such groups exist. You asked me to give you an example of such a group. I did so. If you don't believe what I've said about them, that's your problem.
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Legion
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Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,981
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Post by Legion on Jun 18, 2011 13:25:00 GMT -5
Well, how would you discipline a child? Especially one who is only a toddler and doesnt really understand how having stuff taken away or being grounded sucks? This one clearly smacked a bit too hard if red makrs remained a while after the smack, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking a child to show it it has done wrong. As it grows up you can then do the non-physical punishments when they'll actually mean something, but having the knowledge that a smack can be given out and it will hurt and it means you did wrong is a fine basis to discipline from. As has already been said, there is a massive difference between correcting a child and abusing a child. Any form of physical abuse is abuse. You can try to redefine as "correcting" if you wish, but it is abuse none the less. Do you really believe that physically assaulting your infant is the best course of action? I find that distractions work very well for misbehaving children. My, almost, two year old niece throws tantrums when she wants something but can be easily dissuaded if she is distracted by another activity. Verbal reprimands are also usually affective; a firm "No" tends to work quite well (even if the success rate isn't always 100%). And remember, children learn more from positive reinforcement than they do negative; make sure to always praise your child when it is doing something right. Neither of my siblings hit their children and they have all turned out to be wonderful, docile, friendly, loving, affectionate kids. But you see, for me, then the child hasn't actually learned anything in the scenerio where we distract them from the tantrum with something else. They haven't learnt that that wasn't the right thing to do, they have just learnt that a tantrum might get them an activity or some attention. You claim that all physical abuse is abuse, ok, fine. But if we are going to go down that road, how long before all psychological reprimands are abuse? How long before taking something from a child to teach them a lesson by making them upset can be labelled up as emotional abuse? If you are hitting your kid because you like hitting it, or you are over doing it and leaving bruises and such, then you are abusing your child even if the intent is to teach them a lesson, but the odd smack isnt going to hurt in the long run and may actually work out for the best.
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Jun 18, 2011 13:32:03 GMT -5
My family uses the Dope Slap instead of spanking. Just one quick "Hey, shut the f*** up and behave" Moe Howard-style smack. It works for us.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:40:18 GMT -5
Any form of physical abuse is abuse. You can try to redefine as "correcting" if you wish, but it is abuse none the less. Do you really believe that physically assaulting your infant is the best course of action? I find that distractions work very well for misbehaving children. My, almost, two year old niece throws tantrums when she wants something but can be easily dissuaded if she is distracted by another activity. Verbal reprimands are also usually affective; a firm "No" tends to work quite well (even if the success rate isn't always 100%). And remember, children learn more from positive reinforcement than they do negative; make sure to always praise your child when it is doing something right. Neither of my siblings hit their children and they have all turned out to be wonderful, docile, friendly, loving, affectionate kids. But you see, for me, then the child hasn't actually learned anything in the scenerio where we distract them from the tantrum with something else. They haven't learnt that that wasn't the right thing to do, they have just learnt that a tantrum might get them an activity or some attention. You claim that all physical abuse is abuse, ok, fine. But if we are going to go down that road, how long before all psychological reprimands are abuse? How long before taking something from a child to teach them a lesson by making them upset can be labelled up as emotional abuse? If you are hitting your kid because you like hitting it, or you are over doing it and leaving bruises and such, then you are abusing your child even if the intent is to teach them a lesson, but the odd smack isnt going to hurt in the long run and may actually work out for the best. One of my dad's rules for spanking me was to never do it if he thought he'd get any sort of enjoyment out of it, or if he was angry. He always believed spanking when you're angry or when you might enjoy it is when you'll cross the line.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:44:46 GMT -5
Uh, you made the claim, you back it up. That's how it works. I claim that such groups exist. You asked me to give you an example of such a group. I did so. If you don't believe what I've said about them, that's your problem. You made some fairly heavy claims regarding their M.O. and then don't support the claims when I ask you to do so? In that case, no, I don't believe you.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:48:42 GMT -5
That's cool. You don't believe that spanking isn't abuse, either, so you not believing my personal experiences with Rainbow House doesn't cause me any concern.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:48:57 GMT -5
But you see, for me, then the child hasn't actually learned anything in the scenerio where we distract them from the tantrum with something else. They haven't learnt that that wasn't the right thing to do, they have just learnt that a tantrum might get them an activity or some attention. That's what you have to do with children who have not yet developed linguistic abilities. While it may not teach them a lesson (arguably), it stops them from throwing a tantrum, which is, obviously, what the parent wants. Of course this is merely one method of several that can be adopted; nobody would advocate taking one method and sticking to it. When you can show that a firm "No" or making a child have a cooling-off period leaves lasting psychological damage, then you can call it abuse. As it stands, I'm not aware of any yet. Again, trying to redefine it doesn't make it any less physical. Hitting a child is hitting a child.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:49:29 GMT -5
That's cool. You don't believe that spanking isn't abuse, either, so you not believing my personal experiences with Rainbow House doesn't cause me any concern. Concession accepted.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:50:13 GMT -5
That's cool. You don't believe that spanking isn't abuse, either, so you not believing my personal experiences with Rainbow House doesn't cause me any concern. Concession accepted. That's not really a concession, but if you need to believe that, then okay. Suit yourself.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 13:54:34 GMT -5
That's not really a concession, but if you need to believe that, then okay. Suit yourself. I take it to be a concession because you have made outlandish claims about an organisation that you refuse to (or simply cannot) support. Therefore, I logically conclude that they are fabrications. Then you claim that because I believe that physical assaulting your child is physical abuse that it somehow negates my point; the concession was confirmed.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on Jun 18, 2011 13:56:59 GMT -5
Alrighty then.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jun 18, 2011 14:00:06 GMT -5
But you see, for me, then the child hasn't actually learned anything in the scenerio where we distract them from the tantrum with something else. They haven't learnt that that wasn't the right thing to do, they have just learnt that a tantrum might get them an activity or some attention. That's what you have to do with children who have not yet developed linguistic abilities. While it may not teach them a lesson (arguably), it stops them from throwing a tantrum, which is, obviously, what the parent wants. Of course this is merely one method of several that can be adopted; nobody would advocate taking one method and sticking to it. When you can show that a firm "No" or making a child have a cooling-off period leaves lasting psychological damage, then you can call it abuse. As it stands, I'm not aware of any yet. Again, trying to redefine it doesn't make it any less physical. Hitting a child is hitting a child. Some children need to be hit. I know you wont agree and find the concept abhorent, but as far as I am concerned smacking a kid to teach it a lesson isnt abuse. If you beat it, sure, but not a smack. That isnt redfining it, it's being able to tell the difference. And I should suspect that there are examples where kids have had things taken away from them causing them issues, but I wouldnt begin to know where to look for them. As for just saying No and hoping the kid listens, I don't think I've ever met a kid who would just accept that without knowing that not doing so is going to lead to something like a smack - if there isnt a punishment that is going to work on them that results in going against the no, the no isnt going to work alone.
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Post by Zero Orchestra on Jun 18, 2011 14:04:06 GMT -5
Some children need to be hit. I know you wont agree and find the concept abhorent, but as far as I am concerned smacking a kid to teach it a lesson isnt abuse. If you beat it, sure, but not a smack. Physical abuse is physical abuse. I mean, I get it, you believe that hitting is not as bad as a beating, but physical harm is physical harm no matter the magnitude of it. It remains to be seen then. I'm certainly open to being wrong, but I have yet to hear of any child having lasting psychological damage because their Barbie was periodically taken away from them. I absolutely agree; sticking to one method solely is not going to work. There are myriad avenues that you can take to discipline your children before resorting to physical harm.
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Legion
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Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Post by Legion on Jun 18, 2011 14:16:23 GMT -5
Well, a quick google took me to some South African parenting group that believe that even yelling at your kid will cause them to develop aversion to loud noises and that it can cause them psychological damage, so it would appear that all over the world people have different ideas about how to raise kids and what is fine and what isnt.
But it is perhaps in interesting to note that you blanket term physical abuse as bad no matter what, but something like taking something away, which if a child is attached to that object (let's say a comfort blanket or teddy), will clearly cause them to be upset and thus is, blanket term speaking, emotional and psychological abuse, you dont seem as concerned about.
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