|
Post by DarBucks on Aug 19, 2011 18:45:50 GMT -5
And that's what happens. You and carp seem to have some twisted idea of what happens. What happened in our kangaroo court (which happened on the bus on the way back to the college for away games or in the SU for home games) was that the person was called out on their offence (be it dropping the ball, going offside to often as on-field stuff, or not having your own kit, your phone went off needlessly during half-time for off-field stuff). The "defendant" gives their side, the "prosecution" gives theirs, and then the rest of the team vote on a "punishment" (Buy a beer for the prosecution if it was a directly personal thing, or you have to neck your first pint back at the bar). Nothing twisted about it, just an in-house justice system. you seem to be missing one of the key words there "two." There's no need for everyone to be watching a spectacle or voting on punishments. Le sigh. The TEAM is there because the infraction involved the TEAM somehow, or it damaged TEAM morale. These things are about keeping the TEAM as a unit. EDIT: Just saw your last post. In other words, you're going to dictate and pontificate about something you don't know about?
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 19, 2011 18:53:26 GMT -5
you should be adult enough that if it's not a big enough issue to go to management you either ignore it, or discuss things as two rational individuals. And that's what happens. You and carp seem to have some twisted idea of what happens. What happened in our kangaroo court (which happened on the bus on the way back to the college for away games or in the SU for home games) was that the person was called out on their offence (be it dropping the ball, going offside to often as on-field stuff, or not having your own kit, your phone went off needlessly during half-time for off-field stuff). The "defendant" gives their side, the "prosecution" gives theirs, and then the rest of the team vote on a "punishment" (Buy a beer for the prosecution if it was a directly personal thing, or you have to neck your first pint back at the bar). Nothing twisted about it, just an in-house justice system. I mean, are you just making the point that it's often harmless? ...I mean, fine? Of course it's harmless sometimes. But that doesn't mean it's not stupid to need a judge and fake lawyers to settle small disputes. I'm part of teams at my job. I've known plenty of people who work closely together... touring drama companies, small work units, etc. I've never encountered anything like this. It's unnecessary, and it's immature. You just deal with it like in every other profession on earth. But you guys are ignoring the point I've been making over and over: Official rules have to be written down. You can know what they are before you sign a contract for employment; you know when you break them and what would happen to you. Unofficial rules, enforced by people who are supposed to be my equals, has an enormous potential for abuse, because it's all so abstractly defined, and because so many of those rules about about maintaining the stupid fratboy culture that caused it in the first place. I can literally be punished in any way for anything. All we have are rumors, but having a kangaroo court solely to make Melina cry? Firing Chad Dick for getting upset about being called a faggot? Punishing people for daring to fly first class when they somehow don't deserve to? Embarrassing Dlo by making him dress up as a Muslim? If even one of these things is true, then wrestler's court is an embarrassment.
|
|
|
Post by corndog on Aug 19, 2011 18:56:46 GMT -5
I think the fact that the key members of the court were JBL, Hardcore Holly and CHRIS BENOIT are what I find disturbing about the idea of it. I mean, there was Taker, a well known locker room leader too, but those 3 names are why I'm more inclined to believe that the system was VERY wrong. Because there's nothing quite like two bullies and a future child murderer telling people how to act! Plus, it's f***ing childish. Not including Benoit murdering his family, I wonder if they were really as bad as their reputations lead us to believe. London and Kendrick both liked them. They just sound like hardcore veterans who want the kids to work as hard as themselves. I am the same way at my work. Some of the newer guys complain when I expect them to do better work, but I don't hold them to higher standards than myself and understand they don't have as much experience. But I really don't like people with a weak work ethic.
|
|
|
Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Aug 19, 2011 18:58:48 GMT -5
I remember Miz talking about JBL in an interview and being asked if he went to wrestler's court, and he responded something along the lines of "I don't even know if they still have wrestler's court."
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Aug 19, 2011 19:04:18 GMT -5
you seem to be missing one of the key words there "two." There's no need for everyone to be watching a spectacle or voting on punishments. Le sigh. The TEAM is there because the infraction involved the TEAM somehow, or it damaged TEAM morale. These things are about keeping the TEAM as a unit. EDIT: Just saw your last post. In other words, you're going to dictate and pontificate about something you don't know about? yes I am, because to me it's all just social interaction
|
|
|
Post by DarBucks on Aug 19, 2011 19:04:53 GMT -5
And that's what happens. You and carp seem to have some twisted idea of what happens. What happened in our kangaroo court (which happened on the bus on the way back to the college for away games or in the SU for home games) was that the person was called out on their offence (be it dropping the ball, going offside to often as on-field stuff, or not having your own kit, your phone went off needlessly during half-time for off-field stuff). The "defendant" gives their side, the "prosecution" gives theirs, and then the rest of the team vote on a "punishment" (Buy a beer for the prosecution if it was a directly personal thing, or you have to neck your first pint back at the bar). Nothing twisted about it, just an in-house justice system. I mean, are you just making the point that it's often harmless? ...I mean, fine? Of course it's harmless sometimes. But that doesn't mean it's not stupid to need a judge and fake lawyers to settle small disputes. I'm part of teams at my job. I've known plenty of people who work closely together... touring drama companies, small work units, etc. I've never encountered anything like this. It's unnecessary, and it's immature. You just deal with it like in every other profession on earth. But you guys are ignoring the point I've been making over and over: Official rules have to be written down. You can know what they are before you sign a contract for employment; you know when you break them and what would happen to you. Unofficial rules, enforced by people who are supposed to be my equals, has an enormous potential for abuse, because it's all so abstractly defined, and because so many of those rules about about maintaining the stupid fratboy culture that caused it in the first place. I can literally be punished in any way for anything. Have you ever been on a sports team? It is an entirely different culture than an office. The manager does NOT need to concern himself with every little in-team spat, unless it gets to the point of physical violence or serious bullying. Offences below that are handled by the team so that there is a unity between teammates. Yes, there is potential for abuse of rules, but I have never seen it happen. If someone goes into a team with the attitude of setting themselves up as the alpha-dog, they don't last long, so that culture is removed from the team. The fact that in wrestling, you're trusting your body to your teammates, and spending more time with these guys than your family certainly means that there has to be an in-house justice system, otherwise management are monitoring the locker-room 24/7 which helps no-one.
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 19, 2011 19:13:40 GMT -5
Have you ever been on a sports team? It is an entirely different culture than an office. The manager does NOT need to concern himself with every little in-team spat, unless it gets to the point of physical violence or serious bullying. Offences below that are handled by the team so that there is a unity between teammates. Yes, there is potential for abuse of rules, but I have never seen it happen. . Well, then, I guess the deal is that I remain utterly unconvinced that spooorttttssss is this magic area that involves such amazingly different social rules from every other team situation that outsiders just will never understand. I've worked closely with people, and I've interacted with other human beings, so I consider myself knowledgeable enough to say that this whole thing is silly and immature and unnecessary. I seriously do agree that it's often harmless, but also, I do not accept your personally never having directly seen anything you personally consider abuse of power as a convincing argument that it doesn't happen. We also may be talking about different ultimate goals. Things like kangaroo court and hazing absolutely will help team morale, because everyone's doing all these mental loop-the-loops to justify why they put up with such things "Man, I guess being part of this is really important to me, to go through all this!" But I more care about the individual. It's not good for the people involved, and it renders them willfully blind to institutional problems.
|
|
|
Post by DarBucks on Aug 19, 2011 19:20:11 GMT -5
Have you ever been on a sports team? It is an entirely different culture than an office. The manager does NOT need to concern himself with every little in-team spat, unless it gets to the point of physical violence or serious bullying. Offences below that are handled by the team so that there is a unity between teammates. Yes, there is potential for abuse of rules, but I have never seen it happen. . Well, then, I guess the deal is that I remain utterly unconvinced that spooorttttssss is this magic area that involves such amazingly different social rules from every other team situation that outsiders just will never understand. I've worked closely with people, and I've interacted with other human beings, so I consider myself knowledgeable enough to say that this whole thing is silly and immature and unnecessary. I seriously do agree that it's often harmless, but also, I do not accept your personally never having directly seen anything you personally consider abuse of power as a convincing argument that it doesn't happen. We also may be talking about different ultimate goals. Things like kangaroo court and hazing absolutely will help team morale, because everyone's doing all these mental loop-the-loops to justify why they put up with such things "Man, I guess being part of this is really important to me, to go through all this!" But I more care about the individual. It's not good for the people involved, and it renders them willfully blind to institutional problems. Clearly, if you have never been on a sports team beyond high school you won't understand this. I never condoned hazing by the way. Notice, I said bullying in a team has to be dealt with by the manager. I've given a good enough explanation against rule abuse. Like I said, unless you've been in the sports environment, you're not going to understand this, and ergo you are pontificating about something you know nothing of.
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 19, 2011 19:35:35 GMT -5
Clearly, if you have never been on a sports team beyond high school you won't understand this. I never condoned hazing by the way. Notice, I said bullying in a team has to be dealt with by the manager. I've given a good enough explanation against rule abuse. Like I said, unless you've been in the sports environment, you're not going to understand this, and ergo you are pontificating about something you know nothing of. "ergo you are pontificating?" ...uh, anyway, if you want to give some actual reasons why sports are magically different from everything else, go for it. I doubt you'll convince me, and absolutely nothing you say has anything at all to do with the WWE and wrestler's court, but this has been a lively and interesting discussion I'd rather not end with "You just don't have the magic knowledge that we do, so we're right and you're wrong." Also, no, "I've never personally seen it" is not good enough. How on earth did we wind up talking about sports, anyway? I thought we were talking about pro wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 19, 2011 20:00:05 GMT -5
OK, with sports, you need to be together as a team. So, as a team, solving the problems together helps bond the team.
The "sentences" are usually not uber serious, so as not to focus on the error, but to focus on the team bonding.
That's about as simple as I can put it.
|
|
|
Post by DarBucks on Aug 19, 2011 20:01:01 GMT -5
Clearly, if you have never been on a sports team beyond high school you won't understand this. I never condoned hazing by the way. Notice, I said bullying in a team has to be dealt with by the manager. I've given a good enough explanation against rule abuse. Like I said, unless you've been in the sports environment, you're not going to understand this, and ergo you are pontificating about something you know nothing of. "ergo you are pontificating?" ...uh, anyway, if you want to give some actual reasons why sports are magically different from everything else, go for it. I doubt you'll convince me, and absolutely nothing you say has anything at all to do with the WWE and wrestler's court, but this has been a lively and interesting discussion I'd rather not end with "You just don't have the magic knowledge that we do, so we're right and you're wrong." Also, no, "I've never personally seen it" is not good enough. How on earth did we wind up talking about sports, anyway? I thought we were talking about pro wrestling. I'm dropping this discussion. You just won't get it. I'm not saying you're stupid, but you do have to experience the environment of a locker room to understand it
|
|
mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
|
Post by mrjl on Aug 19, 2011 20:29:20 GMT -5
"ergo you are pontificating?" ...uh, anyway, if you want to give some actual reasons why sports are magically different from everything else, go for it. I doubt you'll convince me, and absolutely nothing you say has anything at all to do with the WWE and wrestler's court, but this has been a lively and interesting discussion I'd rather not end with "You just don't have the magic knowledge that we do, so we're right and you're wrong." Also, no, "I've never personally seen it" is not good enough. How on earth did we wind up talking about sports, anyway? I thought we were talking about pro wrestling. I'm dropping this discussion. You just won't get it. I'm not saying you're stupid, but you do have to experience the environment of a locker room to understand it how about explaining what's so special about the environment of a locker room.
|
|
randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
|
Post by randomranter on Aug 19, 2011 20:48:36 GMT -5
When it's light-hearted fun (the 'guilty' guy buys everybody's beer), I see nothing wrong with it -- as long as it stays that way. Everybody has a good laugh and nobody takes it seriously or goes over the line.
But when it's meant to single people out, make the 'new guy' feel bad for breaking some stupid 'tradition', or when it escalates into outright hazing, then it's wrong.
"You made a joke about his birthday, so you're buying the drinks for everybody so we can celebrate with him" -- Ok.
"You didn't shake the right person's hand so you're paying for his plane ticket and carrying his bags". -- Not OK.
"You're the new guy so you're buying the first round of drinks for everybody tonight." -Ok.
"You're the new guy so <throws out bags> you get to change in the hallway because f*** you." -- Not Ok.
|
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,764
|
Post by nisidhe on Aug 19, 2011 20:51:17 GMT -5
How on earth did we wind up talking about sports, anyway? I thought we were talking about pro wrestling. Indeed. In particular, given the forum, we are discussing WWE. Any sports organization whose "kangaroo courts" or hazing rituals were brought to public attention would find themselves under the hammer from their governing bodies. The leaked videotape of a hazing ritual contributed to the disbanding of the Canadian Airborne Regiment. I suspect that WWE's "wrestlers' court" and any other "bonding" exercises ended rather abruptly sometime during the summer of 2007. The company and the locker room knew that Benoit's bones would be picked clean and, as some authors may have mentioned, the work culture in pro wrestling would prove tender and tasty meat for the news outlets if any of it could be confirmed with more than anecdotes. It would also prove disastrous for the stock price and the numbers. There's likely a code of conduct drawn up by WWE that covers every aspect of what it means to be a WWE superstar and renders unnecessary and unwanted any internal policing of that type.
|
|
|
Post by sdoyle7798 on Aug 19, 2011 20:55:25 GMT -5
I'm dropping this discussion. You just won't get it. I'm not saying you're stupid, but you do have to experience the environment of a locker room to understand it how about explaining what's so special about the environment of a locker room. See my post 2 above yours.
|
|
randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
|
Post by randomranter on Aug 19, 2011 20:57:47 GMT -5
how about explaining what's so special about the environment of a locker room. See my post 2 above yours. I think the point people are trying to make, though, is that a lot of the stories we hear have little to nothing to do with "team bonding" and more to do with singling out the new guy, hazing, and maintaining the pecking order. For the record, I'm not saying the stories are or are not true. I'm just saying that the stories as told have little to do with the "team bonding" you refer to. Another thing to keep in mind is that, unlike "team sports", there is a huge political atmosphere in the back room, as people have and will step on each other to maneuver themselves one more step up the ladder if they have to. In team sports, there is some politics, but the ultimate goal is for the team to get ahead and win. In pro wrestling, it's less about the "team" and more about getting your own ass over and higher up the ladder, which negates at least some of the "team bonding" you refer to.
|
|
|
Post by mcclanahan on Aug 19, 2011 22:44:14 GMT -5
also this should really be in the (W)rest section as it really applies to all wrestling not just the E Now I'm imagining a CHIKARA wrestler's court ok keep imagining that...but replace Judge Quack wth Judge Delerious...in gimmick
|
|
|
Post by mcclanahan on Aug 19, 2011 22:46:07 GMT -5
once again though, as I said morale is higher in locker rooms with wrestler court...without it the locker room is anarchy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 22:51:30 GMT -5
"You're the new guy so <throws out bags> you get to change in the hallway because f*** you." -- Not Ok. The one major time that I heard that happening was with Muhammed Hassan, who was told to do so by Benoit after Hassan confronted Eddie Guerrero about using the camel clutch during the match. The problem with that is Eddie's father invented the hold for El Santo.
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Mungus on Aug 21, 2011 23:08:51 GMT -5
Who was it that JBL threatened to sodomize with a broomstick? Duke Drosse? The story goes that JBL and Finlay did unspeakable things to Khali at the King of the Ring 2008 show with a broomstick, leaving Khali on the ground crying in the shower. And I'll let Pink Floyd answer that for me:
|
|