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Post by juvijuiceisloose on Mar 15, 2012 21:32:10 GMT -5
Internet fans f***ing piss me off. The Miz is such a great heel that people can't accept the fact that he is working them. They make excuses and attack his ring skills. When did ring skills matter? Why should they? What matters is charisma. Miz has it. Rock had it. Hogan had it. You don't need to be the best technical wrestler in the world, all you need is IT. Please don't compare the Miz to Hulk Hogan and The Rock. The Rock and Hogan may not have been technical wizards, but when the lights were at their brightest, when it was time to shine, they delivered in the Big Time. When it was time for the Main Event of Wrestlemania, they stepped their games up. Cena as well. When Miz was in the Main Event at Wrestlemania, what happened? He and Cena had one of the most underwhelming Main Event matches in Wrestlemania history. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 15, 2012 21:39:49 GMT -5
Wow... between the Rock/Cena feud and the Miz losing streak, this place has a real fire lit under it lately.
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Post by dragonfire1988 on Mar 15, 2012 21:40:43 GMT -5
Hey I'm one of the biggest Hulk-A-Maniac's in the world.
I'd never say Miz is close to Hogan's talent. In ring or with charisma.
But Miz is similar in that he's more about persona and psychology.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 15, 2012 21:56:27 GMT -5
That's a classic Miz defense though - "the Miz is actually working you." He isn't working someone when they decide to change the channel. That's the very antithesis of good heel work. Good heel work is and always will be a wrestler making you hate them enough to pay money to watch them get their ass kicked by a face. It can be a seething hatred or a "love to hate" hatred, but all that matters is the heel sells tickets and PPV buys. To hate the Miz for his character is to hate him for his arrogance, for his smugness, for his grandstanding. To hate him for his work is to hate him for his promo work from a technical standpoint, his in-ring work from a technical standpoint, etc. The only way that classic defense holds water is if the Miz's gimmick is to piss off people from a technical standpoint, but because the result is not lucrative at all, that makes it absurd or else indicative of serious problems within WWE. In short, if I dislike Miz because I think he sucks in the ring and on the mic, it has nothing to do with his character. If I change the channel, I'm not being worked. But you're trying to separate things that can't be separated. First of all, you guys are acting like it's some kind of objective fact that Miz is losing the WWE money, causing people to change the channel, causing fans to sit on their hands, keeping people from buying PPVs, and there's absolutely no evidence for that. In fact, there's evidence AGAINST it, in that he almost always gets an audible reaction from the fans, and the WWE, who specifically monitors this stuff, puts him on TV for a long time every week. Second, I know you think you're some kind of emotionally intelligent, completely self-aware being who knows exactly why you have every feeling in your mind. Everyone thinks that about themselves. But you're not. All the Miz-haters are all so certain that they REALLY hate him for these meta, aware, cerebral, smart, unmarkish reasons, as if his booking and his (effective) heel character have nothing to do with it, and I'm sorry, that is just not credible. So you know what's in someone's head better than they do? Are you Charles Xavier? I said this in another thread and I'll say it again, if the Miz is working us claims were true, wouldn't we be loving the fact that this heel is getting his ass kicked lately? I don't see it happening. He's getting go away heat from us. Miz's mic skills are extremely overrated too. He's good at reciting the lines written for him in a slow, deliberate way without major flubbing. Wow. Impressive. |
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Nikki Heyman
Fry's dog Seymour
EXTREEEEEME Pony Manager
✬ Believe In The Fight ✬
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Post by Nikki Heyman on Mar 16, 2012 1:33:36 GMT -5
Research Miz's Raw promo, 9/6/2010.... Miz could hear us and predicts the future  |
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Mar 16, 2012 2:19:47 GMT -5
Miz's whole punch, kick, stomp in ring style could be a bit more believable if he added moves like chop blocks, or low drop kicks to the legs into it. Maybe he can also train in MMA like his peers Bryan and Punk. I picture a slightly more technical Miz who would try to grapple his opponents to the ground or take their knees out from under them and then proceed to kick and stomp the s**t out of them.
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Post by Error on Mar 16, 2012 2:32:10 GMT -5
I doubt anything he learned in UPW was carried over to what WWE expects out of someone. I'm not saying that what he was taught was wrong, it's just something that if I was put in the same situation, I would definitely play it up as best as I could if I was in the big leagues. Again, just my opinion...but if no one else lives by that rule (especially guys who DO want to get heel heat like Jericho), then why would he? Except UPW was basically developmental for a while. They taught the style that WWE wanted. And it wasn't a casual relationship either, as you can find footage of HHH showing up on their show. And as I said earlier, some guys will take that mindset to heart more than others. And there's other ways to do it. Jericho didnt dial back his moveset, no, but he did get rid of absolutely everything else that would get him cheered. Again, I think the way he goes about working the fans does not agree with how he's being portrayed. That seems to be the problem to me. To support what you are saying, I point out Randy Orton. When a heel, he guts his moveset and sticks to "restholds", punches, kicks and things like that to keep the fans from getting behind him and things like that, that won't get people behind him but will make them want to see his opponent come back. You compare what Orton does as a heel v. what he does as a face, it's night and day. I am not saying Miz is on Orton's level (I think Orton is top 5 in WWE) but that style isn't unheard of in WWE. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2012 9:18:12 GMT -5
Except UPW was basically developmental for a while. They taught the style that WWE wanted. And it wasn't a casual relationship either, as you can find footage of HHH showing up on their show. And as I said earlier, some guys will take that mindset to heart more than others. And there's other ways to do it. Jericho didnt dial back his moveset, no, but he did get rid of absolutely everything else that would get him cheered. Again, I think the way he goes about working the fans does not agree with how he's being portrayed. That seems to be the problem to me. To support what you are saying, I point out Randy Orton. When a heel, he guts his moveset and sticks to "restholds", punches, kicks and things like that to keep the fans from getting behind him and things like that, that won't get people behind him but will make them want to see his opponent come back. You compare what Orton does as a heel v. what he does as a face, it's night and day. I am not saying Miz is on Orton's level (I think Orton is top 5 in WWE) but that style isn't unheard of in WWE. To further back up that point see Drew McIntyre, when he was the Chosen One his moveset was about as boring as paint drying despite the fact he has an insane amount of talent. |
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Ryanar
Samurai Cop
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Post by Ryanar on Mar 16, 2012 9:23:47 GMT -5
you can say the same for Sheamus. Sheamus incorporated the springboard shoulder block, as well as the Diving Shoulder Block. He also incorporated the Rolling Fireman's Carry, the Celtic Cross, and the repeating heart punches. Heel movesets and Face movesets are night and day.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 16, 2012 11:06:49 GMT -5
But you're trying to separate things that can't be separated. First of all, you guys are acting like it's some kind of objective fact that Miz is losing the WWE money, causing people to change the channel, causing fans to sit on their hands, keeping people from buying PPVs, and there's absolutely no evidence for that. In fact, there's evidence AGAINST it, in that he almost always gets an audible reaction from the fans, and the WWE, who specifically monitors this stuff, puts him on TV for a long time every week. Second, I know you think you're some kind of emotionally intelligent, completely self-aware being who knows exactly why you have every feeling in your mind. Everyone thinks that about themselves. But you're not. All the Miz-haters are all so certain that they REALLY hate him for these meta, aware, cerebral, smart, unmarkish reasons, as if his booking and his (effective) heel character have nothing to do with it, and I'm sorry, that is just not credible. So you know what's in someone's head better than they do? Are you Charles Xavier? I said this in another thread and I'll say it again, if the Miz is working us claims were true, wouldn't we be loving the fact that this heel is getting his ass kicked lately? I don't see it happening. He's getting go away heat from us. If by "us" you mean the four people who post over and over about how they hate the Miz and wish he would be forcibly retired, then I'm with you. If, however, by "us" you mean any larger group of people beyond that, then I guess you're the one with the mind-reading powers, huh? And no, you don't have to be Professor X to see something funny about the way people talk about the Miz. People don't just say they dislike him above and beyond being worked. You are actually implying you're somehow IMMUNE from being worked by him. Everyone likes to believe they can ignore something like that, and everyone likes to think they know exactly where their feelings are from. No one does. |
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Dang!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Dang! on Mar 18, 2012 1:00:16 GMT -5
Miz was an athlete at high school and college, captain of the basketball and cross country teams, as well as being in the swim team. [...]Shit was SO cash![...] |
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Mar 18, 2012 2:09:48 GMT -5
But you're trying to separate things that can't be separated. First of all, you guys are acting like it's some kind of objective fact that Miz is losing the WWE money, causing people to change the channel, causing fans to sit on their hands, keeping people from buying PPVs, and there's absolutely no evidence for that. In fact, there's evidence AGAINST it, in that he almost always gets an audible reaction from the fans, and the WWE, who specifically monitors this stuff, puts him on TV for a long time every week. Second, I know you think you're some kind of emotionally intelligent, completely self-aware being who knows exactly why you have every feeling in your mind. Everyone thinks that about themselves. But you're not. All the Miz-haters are all so certain that they REALLY hate him for these meta, aware, cerebral, smart, unmarkish reasons, as if his booking and his (effective) heel character have nothing to do with it, and I'm sorry, that is just not credible. I spoke for no one but myself and you didn't even address such because you can't refute my opinion since it is subjective and grounded in my personal testimony, so you decided to speak for all those you disagree with because you think you are smarter and more aware of the business than any dissenters are. Your mistake is that I don't care about the Miz's crowd reactions, his merchandise sales, or any of that. I don't need to. My opinion isn't based on if he's popular, unlike you, judging from your post's logic. All that matters to me is whether he entertains me, and he doesn't. I am sorry that I must be the one to inform you, but it is you who is delusional to think that a heel's gimmick and technique are inseparable and thus cannot be criticized. Absolute nonsense. You cannot seem to accept that not everyone likes the Miz or thinks he is talented. Grow up and good day, sir. Thanks for playing. |
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Mar 18, 2012 2:39:51 GMT -5
So you know what's in someone's head better than they do? Are you Charles Xavier? I said this in another thread and I'll say it again, if the Miz is working us claims were true, wouldn't we be loving the fact that this heel is getting his ass kicked lately? I don't see it happening. He's getting go away heat from us. If by "us" you mean the four people who post over and over about how they hate the Miz and wish he would be forcibly retired, then I'm with you. If, however, by "us" you mean any larger group of people beyond that, then I guess you're the one with the mind-reading powers, huh? And no, you don't have to be Professor X to see something funny about the way people talk about the Miz. People don't just say they dislike him above and beyond being worked. You are actually implying you're somehow IMMUNE from being worked by him. Everyone likes to believe they can ignore something like that, and everyone likes to think they know exactly where their feelings are from. No one does. How does changing the channel imply "work immunity?" You're jumping to conclusions and building strawmen. Just stop. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 18, 2012 14:28:08 GMT -5
But you're trying to separate things that can't be separated. First of all, you guys are acting like it's some kind of objective fact that Miz is losing the WWE money, causing people to change the channel, causing fans to sit on their hands, keeping people from buying PPVs, and there's absolutely no evidence for that. In fact, there's evidence AGAINST it, in that he almost always gets an audible reaction from the fans, and the WWE, who specifically monitors this stuff, puts him on TV for a long time every week. Second, I know you think you're some kind of emotionally intelligent, completely self-aware being who knows exactly why you have every feeling in your mind. Everyone thinks that about themselves. But you're not. All the Miz-haters are all so certain that they REALLY hate him for these meta, aware, cerebral, smart, unmarkish reasons, as if his booking and his (effective) heel character have nothing to do with it, and I'm sorry, that is just not credible. I spoke for no one but myself and you didn't even address such because you can't refute my opinion since it is subjective and grounded in my personal testimony, so you decided to speak for all those you disagree with because you think you are smarter and more aware of the business than any dissenters are. Your mistake is that I don't care about the Miz's crowd reactions, his merchandise sales, or any of that. I don't need to. My opinion isn't based on if he's popular, unlike you, judging from your post's logic. All that matters to me is whether he entertains me, and he doesn't. I am sorry that I must be the one to inform you, but it is you who is delusional to think that a heel's gimmick and technique are inseparable and thus cannot be criticized. Absolute nonsense. You cannot seem to accept that not everyone likes the Miz or thinks he is talented. Grow up and good day, sir. Thanks for playing. I...am honestly having a hard time following what is being said, here, but I will do my best. I think all I need to say in response is "The fact that you, personally, dislike The Miz is not good evidence that he's losing the WWE money, which is what was claimed." I'm sorry you seem to be taking this so personally? But... Look, people are inclined to think Zooey Deschanel is a better actress than she really is because she's attractive. They think The Rock tells funnier jokes than he does because his delivery is so good. It's going to be hard to convince a rabid Hunger Games fan that the upcoming movie isn't good, because they love the books so much. I'm going to have a little bit of a hard time seeing Michael Emerson on a TV show playing a good guy, because he was such a creep on Lost. The funny thing about this Miz thing is that the few (literally I count four people) who really post a lot about disliking him do what you just did: They act like their opinions are somehow removable from the context of seeing this guy on TV acting like a jerk. It's always so weird to me how intensely people will cast themselves as uninfluenced. I mean, your last post was kind of special, because you just threw EVERYTHING at the wall: accusations that the other side is biased, debate terms used incorrectly (straw man isn't what you seem to think it is), implications of being an oppressed minority, that deliberately irritating "thanks buh-bye!" thing, and my favorite: resorting to actually not having to defend your position because it's an OPINION okay? and opinions are unassailable it's just how I FEEL, okay? |
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Moppy
Samurai Cop
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Post by Moppy on Mar 18, 2012 15:54:14 GMT -5
You're not supposed to like The Miz.
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Post by "American Dragon" on Mar 18, 2012 16:15:01 GMT -5
Are you serious? People here are actually comparing Miz to Hogan and The Rock? SMH...
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
Posts: 15,296
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Post by Hawk Hart on Mar 18, 2012 16:22:07 GMT -5
Are you serious? People here are actually comparing Miz to Hogan and The Rock? SMH... I'm even more perplexed by people comparing him to people that have no talent at all. |
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Mar 18, 2012 16:59:43 GMT -5
You still don't get it. Read my initial post, then read your arguments. Actually read them and then reflect why I think you are being an overly defensive, delusional jackass.
I said that I change the channel on the Miz. I didn't speak for anyone else but myself. The Miz is supposed to keep me tuned in. He is supposed to make me want to buy tickets to see his butt get kicked by a babyface. He fails in this endeavor with me. Thus I am not getting worked. That is what I said. I said nothing about ratings, buyrates, or crowd reactions. But you don't care, you have to white knight and make claims about me without backing them up. And yes, I do know how a straw man works - you just did it. Again.
Go ahead, ignore what I actually said and continue arguing your own points that I never addressed in the first place while never refuting what I said, it's what you seem to do best.
I don't like the Miz. I change the channel on him, but I stay tuned for Dolph Ziggler, Daniel Bryan, Cody Rhodes - you know; heels. Now go on, ignore that and continue arguing things I never addressed in the first place.
Toodles.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Mar 18, 2012 17:57:57 GMT -5
This last page aside, I would like to take out the time to point out how shocked I am that this thread has lasted four pages.
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