SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 24, 2013 0:50:27 GMT -5
No, heels believe that they are. Unfortunately, a lot of times WWE writing is so poor that the heels become sympathetic. But they shouldn't, when done right. No one felt sorry for Ted DiBiase for example when he lost his million dollar belt to his long-suffering man-servant. In storytelling, the haves are always the bad guy, and the underdog the hero. Excess, oppression and abuse of power are villain traits. And as for Vince, him preferring hosses is wrong and has been proven wrong. Its archaic carny bullshit that's been disproven by legitimate fighting, and also the fact that wrestling's biggest money drawing stars are a median size of 6'2", and about 240 lbs. The only over 6'5" long-term draws in WWE history are Hogan, Andre and Undertaker. That's it. Fake heights don't count.
|
|
Essential1
Hank Scorpio
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 6,080
|
Post by Essential1 on Aug 24, 2013 1:46:52 GMT -5
The best heels talk the truth.
|
|
|
Post by Larryhausen on Aug 24, 2013 3:21:44 GMT -5
No, the best heels BELIEVE they speak the truth.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 122,006
|
Post by Mozenrath on Aug 24, 2013 3:28:35 GMT -5
No, the best heels BELIEVE they speak the truth. Indeed. The best heels believe in their own righteousness, either logically or morally. To them, it's all about results, or their own brand of morality. Triple H thinks that what is best for him is what is best for wrestling, DiBiase thought that anyone could compromise who they were for the right price, and Piper probably thought he could fly, given how coked out he was at any given time.
|
|
|
Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 24, 2013 3:38:29 GMT -5
Personally, the fact that we can get massive disparities in size between opponents is one of the main draws of wrestling to me. Can't get that in real combat sports with their strict weight divisions.
|
|
Chip
Hank Scorpio
Slam Jam Death.
Posts: 5,185
|
Post by Chip on Aug 24, 2013 3:48:06 GMT -5
Personally, the fact that we can get massive disparities in size between opponents is one of the main draws of wrestling to me. Can't get that in real combat sports with their strict weight divisions. Agreed. It gave us a certain moment at Wrestlemania 3 that has gone down as one of the most iconic events in all of wrestling.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 3:53:41 GMT -5
Fake heights don't count. Whether his billed height is to be believed or not, he's still a pretty big guy.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 24, 2013 4:01:13 GMT -5
Fake heights don't count. Whether his billed height is to be believed or not, he's still a pretty big guy. True. But he's legit just over 6'3". I made sure to say 6'5" because that's always been the consensus hoss starter height. And surprisingly, a lot of really huge guys never drew that well. Austin and Cena seem to be the magic money number: 6'2", about 240-250.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 4:10:52 GMT -5
Personally, the fact that we can get massive disparities in size between opponents is one of the main draws of wrestling to me. Can't get that in real combat sports with their strict weight divisions. And that sort of thing is why I have always hated the idea of a Cruiserweight division, because you're basically just chucking a whole potential group of people to add to that sort of dynamic into their own little niche with the unstated but clear message they're only good enough to compete with each other.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 5:20:25 GMT -5
Whether his billed height is to be believed or not, he's still a pretty big guy. True. But he's legit just over 6'3". I made sure to say 6'5" because that's always been the consensus hoss starter height. And surprisingly, a lot of really huge guys never drew that well. Austin and Cena seem to be the magic money number: 6'2", about 240-250. Which is what confuses me. Is it because they are short, or is it a perceived lack of muscularity or skinniness to not push them or have them at the top? As long they aren't Hornswoggle sized I don't see the wrong in having someone like a Daniel Bryan as one of your promotion's top stars. Or even on the opposite side of the spectrum, as long as they aren't Giant Gonzales sized and thus unable to work a match properly I don't see the problem in someone like The Undertaker being at the top or at least getting a decent push. But yeah, like you said it seems the most successful stars in 'da buziness' are people like Steve Austin who are about average height, average weight, etc. in terms of sports, because they are more relatable to an audience.
|
|
|
Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Aug 24, 2013 5:37:26 GMT -5
While we're on heights has anyone else noticed just how big the lifts are in CM Punk's boots?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 5:39:39 GMT -5
Wha?
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 24, 2013 5:58:47 GMT -5
True. But he's legit just over 6'3". I made sure to say 6'5" because that's always been the consensus hoss starter height. And surprisingly, a lot of really huge guys never drew that well. Austin and Cena seem to be the magic money number: 6'2", about 240-250. Which is what confuses me. Is it because they are short, or is it a perceived lack of muscularity or skinniness to not push them or have them at the top? As long they aren't Hornswoggle sized I don't see the wrong in having someone like a Daniel Bryan as one of your promotion's top stars. Or even on the opposite side of the spectrum, as long as they aren't Giant Gonzales sized and thus unable to work a match properly I don't see the problem in someone like The Undertaker being at the top or at least getting a decent push. But yeah, like you said it seems the most successful stars in 'da buziness' are people like Steve Austin who are about average height, average weight, etc. in terms of sports, because they are more relatable to an audience. I think Vince doesn't ideally like to push smaller guys because he sees tall and muscular as his own personal ideal. His near obsession with bodybuilding himself kind of backs up his preferences, at least physically. Dude's obsessed with muscularity. However, it's 2013, and what was considered superhuman (big muscles) years ago has since been exposed. Only children really think that big and muscular means tough anymore. The rest of the world has been re-educated to know that technique trumps muscle mass, and in some cases, in legit competition, huge muscles are an actual detriment due to the amount of oxygen it takes to keep them working properly. So, when some people say that they can't see a trained guy like Bryan beat a John Cena, just because of size, it's kind of silly. I see guys Bryan's size choke out and tap out huge dudes like Cena every week in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class. We're a generation that's been made aware of the world's best and most potent fighting styles. And its rendered old-time perceptions like that as obsolete (unless said giant dude is schooled too, then holy shit, little guy's done). As for the bigger guys --the true hosses-- I think most don't resonate as draws because, quite frankly, there has been too many. They were overexposed, and without the novelty, most tended to be slow lummoxes with no real athletic ability or charisma. It's the reason why Mike Awesome kicked ass in ECW but was just another dude in WCW and WWE. He was just another big man outside his dominant stomping grounds. Novelty is important. But like you said, I think that happy medium works because they're big enough to look intimidating, but small enough to be athletic. Charisma obviously played a huge part, too.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 24, 2013 6:00:54 GMT -5
While we're on heights has anyone else noticed just how big the lifts are in CM Punk's boots? I've honestly never noticed Punk's. But definitely Jericho's. Hell, even Kane "heightened" when he first debuted with the gimmick. Dude rocked like 3 inch lifts at WrestleMania 14.
|
|
|
Post by The Baltimore Staircase on Aug 24, 2013 6:16:27 GMT -5
While we're on heights has anyone else noticed just how big the lifts are in CM Punk's boots? I've honestly never noticed Punk's. But definitely Jericho's. Hell, even Kane "heightened" when he first debuted with the gimmick. Dude rocked like 3 inch lifts at WrestleMania 14. It's most noticeable when they to the side on entrance thing as he walks out on stage. Must be just as high as Kane's were.
|
|
|
Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Aug 24, 2013 9:44:47 GMT -5
There are those of us who don't want Goatface as champ, so in that regard I support the heels. Long live Orton as corporate champ I say. That's all well and good, but that doesn't affect the narrative being told: that Bryan is worthy and will prove it in the end. You're not supposed to agree with the heels from a storytelling point of view. The same way you're not supposed to be pulling for Richard Long-shanks in Braveheart or Commodus in Gladiator. The heels are clueless oppressors and the face, Bryan in this case, the defiant hero. f*** the narrative. I hate goats.
|
|
SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
|
Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 24, 2013 10:09:05 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but that doesn't affect the narrative being told: that Bryan is worthy and will prove it in the end. You're not supposed to agree with the heels from a storytelling point of view. The same way you're not supposed to be pulling for Richard Long-shanks in Braveheart or Commodus in Gladiator. The heels are clueless oppressors and the face, Bryan in this case, the defiant hero. f*** the narrative. I hate goats. You don't have to. But that is where they're going.
|
|
|
Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Aug 24, 2013 10:09:18 GMT -5
That's all well and good, but that doesn't affect the narrative being told: that Bryan is worthy and will prove it in the end. You're not supposed to agree with the heels from a storytelling point of view. The same way you're not supposed to be pulling for Richard Long-shanks in Braveheart or Commodus in Gladiator. The heels are clueless oppressors and the face, Bryan in this case, the defiant hero. f*** the narrative. I hate goats.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2013 10:21:14 GMT -5
True. But he's legit just over 6'3". I made sure to say 6'5" because that's always been the consensus hoss starter height. And surprisingly, a lot of really huge guys never drew that well. Austin and Cena seem to be the magic money number: 6'2", about 240-250. Which is what confuses me. Is it because they are short, or is it a perceived lack of muscularity or skinniness to not push them or have them at the top? As long they aren't Hornswoggle sized I don't see the wrong in having someone like a Daniel Bryan as one of your promotion's top stars. Or even on the opposite side of the spectrum, as long as they aren't Giant Gonzales sized and thus unable to work a match properly I don't see the problem in someone like The Undertaker being at the top or at least getting a decent push. But yeah, like you said it seems the most successful stars in 'da buziness' are people like Steve Austin who are about average height, average weight, etc. in terms of sports, because they are more relatable to an audience. I think it's also got to do with flexibility and not getting pidgeonholed as the "little guy" or the "big guy". A guy Cena's size can throw around small wrestlers and get thrown around by big wrestlers, and his selling point isn't his size so he can't just coast on that from a characterization standpoint.
|
|
|
Post by PTBartman on Aug 24, 2013 10:22:41 GMT -5
It's the Rey Mysterio theory. As long as they've got a great gimmick and crowds love them, you can book them as main eventers so long as they're as least as tall as he is. For all you Hornswoggle haters, that would disqualify him, I'm sure. I wonder if they have a plywood cutout of Mysterio at the developmental center, "You must be this tall to ride this ride win this belt"
|
|