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Post by salsashark on Aug 18, 2013 12:44:56 GMT -5
Just want to follow up my post with an example of a person I deeply respect: Alan Moore. I don't think outright rejecting all those Hollywood adaptations of his works or being disgusted by Before Watchmen is asshole-ish, but some might, and that's fine. That said, I don't think even his biggest detractors can take him to task for being a hypocrite because he does not meddle with that shit at all. If Punk never muddied the waters of his beliefs, I genuinely believe there would less criticism of him overall. I mean, people would still not like some of his views, but threads like this would not come up and people--like me--who like in other capacities would not be arguing against the guy so strongly.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 18, 2013 12:45:58 GMT -5
And I don't understand why so many people get SO angry by Punk's statements. I love it. He reminds me of comedian Bill Burr. He says things that are usually true, but in a condescending way that seems to unnerve or anger milquetoast people. He's not worth being offended or angered by. If you are, it probably means you don't really have any true conviction in your beliefs. Because true faith or belief is unshaken by criticism. This makes so many assumptions about people who dislike or disagree with Punk that it's mind-boggling. If you want to play the jump to conclusions game here, I could say that people who back Punk so hard and unflaggingly on something like this--something that clearly indicates his desire to always go after easy targets and speak up only when it suits him--are overbearing marks who can't bring themselves to say that their hero is imperfect. These people also believe it's better to be sanctimonious, self-involved, and arrogant instead of taking a hard look in the mirror on one's stances and realizing that the pieces don't always add up. If Bill Burr or Punk or whoever condescends, they will lose a lot of people who believe in them because people don't like assholes--especially ones that try to talk down to them. Look at the responses in this thread along the lines of 'Punk is right, but he's still a dick.' I'd much rather agree with someone is rational and has thought through their beliefs than someone who jumps at easy targets. People don't like assholes. That's why they're called assholes, and that's why people get offended by having to hear them condescend. Generalizing opposing views with such a broad, easy stroke does no one any good, especially when there's some nuance to the situation, as there clearly is with this deal with Punk. "True faith or beliefs" is such a silly, cop-out phrase. First off, if Punk had really, really strong "true faith or beliefs," he would patently refuse to put over or work with someone who had these issues, and he would call everyone out because that's what he does. I mean, Vince McMahon was once involved with an alleged drug scene and a steroid scandal and has been rumored to support or OK all kinds of nasty shit. Why would Punk even feel it's cool to work for his company and make McMahon money considering McMahon's history and--if the dirt sheets are to be believed--the lack of changed behavior on his part? I love Punk as a wrestler and respect him for his hard work and appreciate that he has strong beliefs he'll go to bat for, but as a human being/out-of-ring professional, I have no doubt he knows where his bread is buttered, and that's why you're not going to hear him go to war against someone like Charlie Sheen when the man is on the same program as him that week. If he would do something like that, he'd still be an asshole, but I'd be more endeared to him because he would clearly put his money where his mouth is. I meant the belief thing in reference to those off-put by Punk's anti-religious/ anti-drug stances. That they, if they truly believe in something passionately, shouldn't be threatened by what he says. I myself smoke pot and am a Christian. Yet I don't feel threatened by his so-called condemnation. I don't get those who get riled up. I like his venom. It entertains me. The thing you have to realize is that Punk just likes to f*** with stupid or insecure people. Those who'll say something loadedly ludicrous to him on Twitter as if they, in their idiotic verbiage and insults, are somehow putting him in his place. I respect a guy who schools these types, even if I don't subscribe to his belief system personally. I like that he abuses them to the point where they mentally spaz out. It's hilarious to me. I like that he's a dick. I like seeing people who are not bright get owned. I have no idea why.
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Post by salsashark on Aug 18, 2013 12:53:24 GMT -5
This makes so many assumptions about people who dislike or disagree with Punk that it's mind-boggling. If you want to play the jump to conclusions game here, I could say that people who back Punk so hard and unflaggingly on something like this--something that clearly indicates his desire to always go after easy targets and speak up only when it suits him--are overbearing marks who can't bring themselves to say that their hero is imperfect. These people also believe it's better to be sanctimonious, self-involved, and arrogant instead of taking a hard look in the mirror on one's stances and realizing that the pieces don't always add up. If Bill Burr or Punk or whoever condescends, they will lose a lot of people who believe in them because people don't like assholes--especially ones that try to talk down to them. Look at the responses in this thread along the lines of 'Punk is right, but he's still a dick.' I'd much rather agree with someone is rational and has thought through their beliefs than someone who jumps at easy targets. People don't like assholes. That's why they're called assholes, and that's why people get offended by having to hear them condescend. Generalizing opposing views with such a broad, easy stroke does no one any good, especially when there's some nuance to the situation, as there clearly is with this deal with Punk. "True faith or beliefs" is such a silly, cop-out phrase. First off, if Punk had really, really strong "true faith or beliefs," he would patently refuse to put over or work with someone who had these issues, and he would call everyone out because that's what he does. I mean, Vince McMahon was once involved with an alleged drug scene and a steroid scandal and has been rumored to support or OK all kinds of nasty shit. Why would Punk even feel it's cool to work for his company and make McMahon money considering McMahon's history and--if the dirt sheets are to be believed--the lack of changed behavior on his part? I love Punk as a wrestler and respect him for his hard work and appreciate that he has strong beliefs he'll go to bat for, but as a human being/out-of-ring professional, I have no doubt he knows where his bread is buttered, and that's why you're not going to hear him go to war against someone like Charlie Sheen when the man is on the same program as him that week. If he would do something like that, he'd still be an asshole, but I'd be more endeared to him because he would clearly put his money where his mouth is. I meant the belief thing in reference to those off-put by Punk's anti-religious/ anti-drug stances. That they, if they truly believe in something passionately, shouldn't be threatened by what he says. I myself smoke pot and am a Christian. Yet I don't feel threatened by his so-called condemnation. I don't get those who get riled up. I like his venom. It entertains me. The thing you have to realize is that Punk just likes to f*** with stupid or insecure people. Those who'll say something loadedly ludicrous to him on Twitter as if they, in their idiotic verbiage and insults, are somehow putting him in his place. I respect a guy who schools these types, even if I don't subscribe to his belief system personally. I like that he abuses them to the point where they mentally spaz out. It's hilarious to me. I like that he's a dick. I like seeing people who are not bright get owned. I have no idea why. I understand what you mean, but I think what riles people up isn't just that he talks shit, it's that he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. Good for him for f***ing with idiots' heads, but there are still tons of other people who read his stuff and won't just see this guy as a guy fighting off trolls and having a good time but as a guy who is basically a left-wing equivalent of a Fox News talking head. If he didn't take himself so seriously and maybe indicated, 'Hey, I just love to talk trash. Don't take me so seriously,' there'd be a shift in how much people cared. I don't get worked up with Iron Sheik talks about the Jews or calls someone a faggot or something. Who cares? It's so clearly an over-the-top gimmick! Punk rides the line between real and gimmick, and seems like such a smart and real dude the other half of the time, and that's where all this frustrates and confuses people.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 18, 2013 12:54:19 GMT -5
I really don't find anything offensive about a guy being outspoken and opinionated. He's human. It's what we do. There's a difference between being "outspoken and opinionated" and just being a douche. Well, if Punk's a douche then I'm a douche too, because I usually share his opinions. At the same time, I'm nice to people and go out of my way to help my friends whenever I can. It's been well documented that Punk does the same. I really don't think opinions make someone a good or bad person. Actions do. I just don't find his opinions offensive, no more so than I find your opinion of him offensive. People are vastly different from one another and we're always going to ruffle feathers. It's human nature. Now, if Punk showed up at an autograph signing and was a complete dick to a little kid, then I'd take issue with the guy.
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Post by salsashark on Aug 18, 2013 12:59:34 GMT -5
There's a difference between being "outspoken and opinionated" and just being a douche. Well, if Punk's a douche then I'm a douche too, because I usually share his opinions. At the same time, I'm nice to people and go out of my way to help my friends whenever I can. It's been well documented that Punk does the same. I really don't think opinions make someone a good or bad person. Actions do.Actions are a byproduct of opinions, so "bad person" opinions lead to bad person actions. I mean, you're not going to do purposely something hateful to a certain person or group unless you already believed something hateful about them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 13:02:36 GMT -5
Again, not following his twitter that closely, what bigotry has he been guilty of, to your mind? Religious? Otherwise? Read anything he ever has directed towards Christians. It's pretty bad.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 18, 2013 13:04:05 GMT -5
I meant the belief thing in reference to those off-put by Punk's anti-religious/ anti-drug stances. That they, if they truly believe in something passionately, shouldn't be threatened by what he says. I myself smoke pot and am a Christian. Yet I don't feel threatened by his so-called condemnation. I don't get those who get riled up. I like his venom. It entertains me. The thing you have to realize is that Punk just likes to f*** with stupid or insecure people. Those who'll say something loadedly ludicrous to him on Twitter as if they, in their idiotic verbiage and insults, are somehow putting him in his place. I respect a guy who schools these types, even if I don't subscribe to his belief system personally. I like that he abuses them to the point where they mentally spaz out. It's hilarious to me. I like that he's a dick. I like seeing people who are not bright get owned. I have no idea why. I understand what you mean, but I think what riles people up isn't just that he talks shit, it's that he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. Good for him for f***ing with idiots' heads, but there are still tons of other people who read his stuff and won't just see this guy as a guy fighting off trolls and having a good time but as a guy who is basically a left-wing equivalent of a Fox News talking head. If he didn't take himself so seriously and maybe indicated, 'Hey, I just love to talk trash. Don't take me so seriously,' there'd be a shift in how much people cared. I don't get worked up with Iron Sheik talks about the Jews or calls someone a faggot or something. Who cares? It's so clearly an over-the-top gimmick! Punk rides the line between real and gimmick, and seems like such a smart and real dude the other half of the time, and that's where all this frustrates and confuses people. I agree with you. But I think Punk does it simply to amuse himself. I think he's doing it to pop himself and his friends. He's that kid in your class when you were a kid who always got the last word in. It amused him that people got so mad. That's why he does it. If he was really that piously over the top, he wouldn't be friends with Sonnen, Austin et al. I think it proves its more a kind of antagonistic kayfabe rather than him being a true-blue hypocrite. He's admitted on raio shows before that he gets off on offensive humor because of how much it bothers people. He's saying shit to a Chris Brownand not a Charlie Sheen because A) Brown is so pathetically un-self-aware, and b) he knows that a gaggle of thickheaded cretins will come out of the wood work and darwinism Brown into oblivion with their defenses. I truly think he just says shit to make idiots mad.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 13:06:02 GMT -5
Did Punk make those comments about the "fancy bourgeoisie" pharmacy from his own private tour bus? That he bought with his own money. He's not paying off mark doctors. That's not the point though. He makes his money off of average schlubs. It really doesn't get any more bourgeoisie than that.
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Abdullah
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Post by Abdullah on Aug 18, 2013 13:13:31 GMT -5
I've heard of him going off on other sports/celebs, but he seems to stay hands-off when it comes to wrestling in general. Not exactly. He's taken shots at Elijah Burke and Carlito in the past, so it adds some credence to his penchant for aiming low. I don't need wrestlers, famous people, to be nice. It's a good bonus but not a requirement. I'm a person of faith and the idea that Punk would roll his tired eyes at me if we met, because of my faith, that does get in the way of me enjoying his work especially recently. It's not about what he believes. It's not because I disagree with him. He's just so over the top that it's as if he wants you to know him for more than his impressive career. This is another topic but it doesn't help that Punk has his reached his apex and there are better overall talents popping up left and right.
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Post by Hakumental on Aug 18, 2013 13:14:43 GMT -5
The more famous you are, the less I advise a Twitter account. Punk's no different.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 13:19:11 GMT -5
I've heard of him going off on other sports/celebs, but he seems to stay hands-off when it comes to wrestling in general. Not exactly. He's taken shots at Elijah Burke and Carlito in the past, so it adds some credence to his penchant for aiming low. I don't need wrestlers, famous people, to be nice. It's a good bonus but not a requirement. I'm a person of faith and the idea that Punk would roll his tired eyes at me if we met, because of my faith, that does get in the way of me enjoying his work especially recently. It's not about what he believes. It's not because I disagree with him. He's just so over the top that it's as if he wants you to know him for more than his impressive career. This is another topic but it doesn't help that Punk has his reached his apex and there are better overall talents popping up left and right. That's exactly it, Punk IS a very talented performer. He was one of my favorite guys back in 2009, because he managed to get a crowd that adored him into one that positively despised him. It was a brilliant effort on his part and I was happy to call myself a fan. Back then I didn't care what he believed in and I still don't. And it doesn't get in my way of evaluating him as a wrestler, because I still think he's good. But he's just so abrasive and made his character more about his personal views than about the wrestling, and I can't enjoy him the way I used to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 13:22:26 GMT -5
I understand what you mean, but I think what riles people up isn't just that he talks shit, it's that he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. Good for him for f***ing with idiots' heads, but there are still tons of other people who read his stuff and won't just see this guy as a guy fighting off trolls and having a good time but as a guy who is basically a left-wing equivalent of a Fox News talking head. If he didn't take himself so seriously and maybe indicated, 'Hey, I just love to talk trash. Don't take me so seriously,' there'd be a shift in how much people cared. I don't get worked up with Iron Sheik talks about the Jews or calls someone a faggot or something. Who cares? It's so clearly an over-the-top gimmick! Punk rides the line between real and gimmick, and seems like such a smart and real dude the other half of the time, and that's where all this frustrates and confuses people. I agree with you. But I think Punk does it simply to amuse himself. I think he's doing it to pop himself and his friends. He's that kid in your class when you were a kid who always got the last word in. It amused him that people got so mad. That's why he does it. If he was really that piously over the top, he wouldn't be friends with Sonnen, Austin et al. I think it proves its more a kind of antagonistic kayfabe rather than him being a true-blue hypocrite. He's admitted on raio shows before that he gets off on offensive humor because of how much it bothers people. He's saying shit to a Chris Brownand not a Charlie Sheen because A) Brown is so pathetically un-self-aware, and b) he knows that a gaggle of thickheaded cretins will come out of the wood work and darwinism Brown into oblivion with their defenses. I truly think he just says shit to make idiots mad. Which is what rubs people the wrong way. He's like the kid in class who's always running his mouth and trying to get attention. There's always stories about people who meet him and he act likes a total dick, and I don't know how much truth there is to that, but with how many people have said that over the years it makes you wonder. I like the guy, but come on. There's no need to act the way he does. He can voice his opinions just like anyone else, but he does it in a such a dickish and childish manner. Maybe if he wouldn't be so condescending and bitch and moan every five seconds we wouldn't say anything.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 18, 2013 13:22:29 GMT -5
None of this really bothers me. Then again I'm pretty damn atheist and I hate Baseball.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Aug 18, 2013 13:26:18 GMT -5
Punk is a great performer but he believes in his own bullshit so much that its hilarious. Pretty much. Even if I agree with him more often than not, he expresses his viewpoints in such an obnoxious way that it's off putting.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Aug 18, 2013 13:57:13 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's a fair shot, but uh, wasn't Benedict literally a member of the Hitler Youth? He wasn't even saying "The Pope and Catholicism in general are akin to the actions of the Nazis," he is saying, "The Pope literally was associated with the Nazi Party." That's not even a shot at religion at all, much less an egregious one.
In general, the whole hypocrite thing is stupid. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing, and it lets people find all sorts of exceptions for stuff... as someone already pointed out, if you stand by your cheating best friend but criticize a cheating celebrity, that's not contradictory. You're defending cheating within a very specific and complex situation with all sorts of nuance that you're aware of, and you're criticizing Cheaters Period. Not the same thing.
Probably, if you catch yourself looking for hypocrisy (especially if it's as weak as "He criticized person A but did not criticize person B!") then something about what was said has already made you mad, but you're not sure what it is, so you went digging for something. Same deal with the "He picks on easy targets!" thing... if you have to construct an entire, complicated series of motivations to prop up a theory that the dude is cowardly or disingenuous, then something was already there you didn't like.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 18, 2013 14:00:41 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's a fair shot, but uh, wasn't Benedict literally a member of the Hitler Youth? He wasn't even saying "The Pope and Catholicism in general are akin to the actions of the Nazis," he is saying, "The Pope literally was associated with the Nazi Party." That's not even a shot at religion at all, much less an egregious one. In general, the whole hypocrite thing is stupid. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing, and it lets people find all sorts of exceptions for stuff... as someone already pointed out, if you stand by your cheating best friend but criticize a cheating celebrity, that's not contradictory. You're defending cheating within a very specific and complex situation with all sorts of nuance that you're aware of, and you're criticizing Cheaters Period. Not the same thing. Probably, if you catch yourself looking for hypocrisy (especially if it's as weak as "He criticized person A but did not criticize person B!") then something about what was said has already made you mad, but you're not sure what it is, so you went digging for something. Same deal with the "He picks on easy targets!" thing... if you have to construct an entire, complicated series of motivations to prop up a theory that the dude is cowardly or disingenuous, then something was already there you didn't like. HE SOMETIMES SAYS MEAN THINGS
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Post by hossfan on Aug 18, 2013 14:29:45 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's a fair shot, but uh, wasn't Benedict literally a member of the Hitler Youth? He wasn't even saying "The Pope and Catholicism in general are akin to the actions of the Nazis," he is saying, "The Pope literally was associated with the Nazi Party." That's not even a shot at religion at all, much less an egregious one. In general, the whole hypocrite thing is stupid. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing, and it lets people find all sorts of exceptions for stuff... as someone already pointed out, if you stand by your cheating best friend but criticize a cheating celebrity, that's not contradictory. You're defending cheating within a very specific and complex situation with all sorts of nuance that you're aware of, and you're criticizing Cheaters Period. Not the same thing. Probably, if you catch yourself looking for hypocrisy (especially if it's as weak as "He criticized person A but did not criticize person B!") then something about what was said has already made you mad, but you're not sure what it is, so you went digging for something. Same deal with the "He picks on easy targets!" thing... if you have to construct an entire, complicated series of motivations to prop up a theory that the dude is cowardly or disingenuous, then something was already there you didn't like. I have no ulterior motive to run the guy down. I simply am pointing out what he does and why I take issue with it. Frankly, your attempt to refute the fact that Punk picks his spots when he chooses to criticize is more complicated than the point itself.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Aug 18, 2013 14:41:43 GMT -5
Meh, he still seems like a good dude.
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Post by The Tee Why on Aug 18, 2013 14:59:09 GMT -5
Punks overall logic "If you dont agree with me then **** You" Kinda feels like the whole internet's logic.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Aug 18, 2013 15:11:43 GMT -5
CM Punk takes tough stances on easy targets. I can find that off-putting. It's also that because of his own celebrity, his fans are chomping at the bit to pile on to Punk's chosen targets. And since they ARE easy targets, nobody seems to notice.
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