mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2013 21:18:53 GMT -5
I don't want to see the internet melt down youTube explode or Twitter implode into a cyber black hole. I want consistent logical storytelling. Screw Bash at the Beach, none of the nWo big three ever got their comeuppance and they ended up ruining a company. That's because Bischoff only had two money ideas. 1- Goldberg, 2- The NWO, and WCW neglected everything else by holding onto the NWO longer than they should have. If Cena's turn needs a logical basis, we already have one. He loves WWE more than anything else. In his mind, the rebels could be fighting against the thing he's most loyal to. except we've seen the whole corrupt management thing done before and Cena clearly believes that's bad for the WWE
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Post by Starshine on Aug 28, 2013 21:19:39 GMT -5
I'd love for Cena to turn heel and join McMahon/Trips/whoever as a means of trying to keep Bryan from taking his spot. He's already beaten Cena once, so it would make sense for the former Champ to maybe start sweating over his position.
That's good storytelling.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2013 21:26:46 GMT -5
I'd love for Cena to turn heel and join McMahon/Trips/whoever as a means of trying to keep Bryan from taking his spot. He's already beaten Cena once, so it would make sense for the former Champ to maybe start sweating over his position. That's good storytelling. It's god storytelling if you didn't know the characters involved.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 21:28:07 GMT -5
That's because Bischoff only had two money ideas. 1- Goldberg, 2- The NWO, and WCW neglected everything else by holding onto the NWO longer than they should have. If Cena's turn needs a logical basis, we already have one. He loves WWE more than anything else. In his mind, the rebels could be fighting against the thing he's most loyal to. except we've seen the whole corrupt management thing done before and Cena clearly believes that's bad for the WWE They ARE the WWE. There is no "WWE" outside of the corporate management we are presented with. "WWE" as an organisation is entirely represented by corrupt, abusive, authority figures. This vague, undefined WWE that Cena professes his love and loyalty to doesn't exist beyond that
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Post by Savage Gambino on Aug 28, 2013 21:32:26 GMT -5
I don't want to see the internet melt down youTube explode or Twitter implode into a cyber black hole. I want consistent logical storytelling. Screw Bash at the Beach, none of the nWo big three ever got their comeuppance and they ended up ruining a company. That's because Bischoff only had two money ideas. 1- Goldberg, 2- The NWO, and WCW neglected everything else by holding onto the NWO longer than they should have. If Cena's turn needs a logical basis, we already have one. He loves WWE more than anything else. In his mind, the rebels could be fighting against the thing he's most loyal to. Except that Cena's loyalty has always been to the fans far more than WWE Corporate, as we saw when he threatened to quit over the CM Punk situation in 2011, and with the Johnny Ace feud in 2012. Hell, his last appearance on WWE television before going to surgery was him praising Daniel Bryan. Turning heel in that fashion would involve chucking everything that makes him John Cena out the window. It wouldn't make any sense.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 21:37:42 GMT -5
That's because Bischoff only had two money ideas. 1- Goldberg, 2- The NWO, and WCW neglected everything else by holding onto the NWO longer than they should have. If Cena's turn needs a logical basis, we already have one. He loves WWE more than anything else. In his mind, the rebels could be fighting against the thing he's most loyal to. Except that Cena's loyalty has always been to the fans far more than WWE Corporate, as we saw when he threatened to quit over the CM Punk situation in 2011, and with the Johnny Ace feud in 2012. Hell, his last appearance on WWE television before going to surgery was him praising Daniel Bryan. Turning heel in that fashion would involve chucking everything that makes him John Cena out the window. It wouldn't make any sense. There's a difference between "WWE" which is what he usually pledges himself to, and "WWE fans". Cena is odd in the sense that unlike other faces in the past, he usually doesn't talk about devotion to his own fanbase. He talks about WWE like he's some sort of corporate mascot. It could easily be explained that he was praising Daniel Bryan at the time because he felt that as good as Bryan was, Cena could always come back and take the #1 spot in the company. If Daniel Bryan became too popular however, Cena could easily regard him as an uncomfortable threat and side with the company he loves in order to crush him
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Post by Starshine on Aug 28, 2013 21:40:02 GMT -5
I'd love for Cena to turn heel and join McMahon/Trips/whoever as a means of trying to keep Bryan from taking his spot. He's already beaten Cena once, so it would make sense for the former Champ to maybe start sweating over his position. That's good storytelling. It's god storytelling if you didn't know the characters involved. No, I'm pretty sure I'm right.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2013 21:40:16 GMT -5
except we've seen the whole corrupt management thing done before and Cena clearly believes that's bad for the WWE They ARE the WWE. There is no "WWE" outside of the corporate management we are presented with. "WWE" as an organisation is entirely represented by corrupt, abusive, authority figures. This vague, undefined WWE that Cena professes his love and loyalty to doesn't exist beyond that well if that was the case then the Summer of Punk should have never happened because John Cena never would have forced Vince to give him his title shot. So obviously Cena's loyalty is the the vague undefined WWE over the corrupt management. Although as someone who is a fan of a lot of things I think it's pretty easy to be loyal to the concept of something without caring about what creates it. I'm guy who reads comic books and at times doesn't even know the name of the books writer.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 21:43:21 GMT -5
They ARE the WWE. There is no "WWE" outside of the corporate management we are presented with. "WWE" as an organisation is entirely represented by corrupt, abusive, authority figures. This vague, undefined WWE that Cena professes his love and loyalty to doesn't exist beyond that well if that was the case then the Summer of Punk should have never happened because John Cena never would have forced Vince to give him his title shot. So obviously Cena's loyalty is the the vague undefined WWE over the corrupt management. Yes it's called a contradiction. One that WWE has never been able or willing to address. A more accurate comparable example would be a comic book writer maintaining loyalty to a comic book company who routinely wield their power to abuse their other writers and that aforementioned loyal writer too.
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Post by "American Nightmare" B.B. Bart on Aug 28, 2013 21:46:20 GMT -5
John Cena prefers the WWE name and everything that makes it "the WWE" over the people in charge imposing their will because they can. Simple as that.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 28, 2013 21:47:56 GMT -5
Why can't Cena just team with Bryan? Unless WWE plans to chuck out his entire belief system and nonsensically turn him heel, he's got no reason to be a wallflower here. Make Cena jealous that Bryan beat him clean. Make him delusional over the fact that some indy guy beat WWE's top dog (given all the hoopla the company put into hyping the Summerslam match with THAT kind of content). Make Cena angry that the fans have taken to Bryan 100% while they still boo him even though he busts his ass night in and night out. Make Cena cut a promo that he's officially 'bought in' (sold out) because he doesn't have enough money, cars, houses, women, etc., and that he manipulated millions of people so that he could pad his wallet. It's not that hard to do a Cena turn. Cena's gimmick is past being stale to the point of being petrified. Why not have him do something different like work as a full-blown heel? There's already enough to his gimmick as is as a corporate merchandise-shilling asskiss that his character doesn't really need that much tweaking. "I will be behind WWE for the rest of my life. And who's WWE right now? Triple H." Boom. It's not that hard to book, and it's not even that non-sensical given the character's flip-flopping moral scruples. And that's simply dealing with the kayfabe issues. Practically, barring a match with the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, there is no match, no permutation of a match, and no combination of talent that I honestly care about Cena getting involved with. He's done it all: Wrestlemanias, countless title victories, movies, TV shows. How much more can he accomplish, honestly? And given the number of injuries he's had over the years (bicep, neck, elbow), I'd rather Cena start moving into post-2002 HBK territory, where he moves from the top spot and gives someone else a chance to shine, so that he doesn't end up in a wheelchair or worse. Cena should be passing the torch now (in spite of the fact that WWE spins it that Cena JUST got the torch this year from the Rock, which would be stupid if it wasn't so funny). Look, Cena's a great wrestler and can cut a great promo when he's serious (I hate his yelling-rambling promos) and doesn't abuse his spot to take shots at guys who have no chance of firing a comeback or retort at him (see: burying Ziggler's past gimmicks). But the dude's been 'the Man' of WWE since 2005. It's 2013. In this TV era, Cena's basically had three '1980s era Hulk Hogan' runs. How is Cena doing the same old, same old schtick riveting in any sort of way, other than 'well, he has great matches'? I want something different. Cena to me is not that. Bryan is. Bryan's hot right now, and if WWE can keep the fan support stoked, to then strap a rocket on Bryan come the Royal Rumble leading up to Wrestlemania, he'll be huge. Not just the 1C babyface of the company. And nowhere did I say that Cena had to be a wallflower in all this (with the exception of suggesting that he works HBK-style when it comes to his schedule). A heel turn would likely mean he'd be on TV just as much as he has been as a face. Hell, the proposed Cena/Taker match I suggested would likely main-event Wrestlemania 30 over Bryan/Orton (and honestly? rightfully so, because that match would be huge). Which in the end is fine if the goal in the end is to smash Bryan over as The Guy in the interim or as the end goal ('hey, Bryan beat Cena clean again! Cena, the guy who made the Undertaker tap out!'). And anyone can be The Guy with the right angle, the right booking, and the right amount of fan support. And right now, that's Daniel Bryan. Seriously, how much over does John Cena need to be? How much over does WWE need John Cena to be? It's absurd. He's the pinnacle. He's already hit his ceiling years ago. And while a new Corporation isn't the most novel of long-term storylines, it's a bit different having Bryan in the driver's seat for it than Cena. Change is as good as a rest. Right now, Cena's resting because of injury. Why not change his booking when he comes back on top of that? Watching John Cena play the conquering hero (again) in the end feels like it's justified with a simple shoulder shrug. "Well, because Cena." And for me, "because Cena" isn't good enough, let alone as an argument, especially when he's in the way of someone who has the potential to be the next major babyface of the company, the next 'Man', if you will. Hell, I even jumped through the "hey, Cena's a good wrestler, guys" hoop, because a) it's true, he is a good wrestler, and b) people still think that if you hate Cena as a character it's because of everything but the fact that watching a Cena main-event program from 2005 dealing with Bischoff's shenanigans and a Cena main-event program from 2013 dealing with Vince McMahon and Triple H's shenanigans is basically a re-run that I've already seen many, many times. You keep going back to the idea of Cena as the "conquering hero", and as I mentioned before, that's not what I'm asking for. If Cena's healthy enough to work a show and the Corporation still lives, then he might as well come running down the aisle with a chair to take out the Shield, allowing Bryan to finish Orton off, win the belt and get his uninterrupted confetti. That doesn't steal Bryan's glory, that evens up the odds. And in the end, it puts Bryan firmly in a 1A position, marks a substantial change, everybody's happy. And to be honest, if this were Cena in Bryan's place, there'd be no difference. He's never been booked to be able to decisively beat the Shield unless it's by DQ, so he would certainly spend the next few shows getting pounded and laid out by them and Orton much like Bryan. This isn't a scenario that one wrestler, perhaps not even Hulk Hogan circa 1988, could overcome without some assistance. Having Bryan beat them all by himself would be just as ludicrous as Cena doing it, so if this is still going on, not having John lend a hand just strikes me as poor writing. As for how much more over Cena needs to be? Well, considering WWE keeps f***ing him over by having other faces crap all over him (and lie, let's be honest- he hasn't shown himself to be a "kissass" at any point during his current face run) because they insist on maintaining one narrative in his stories, he could really benefit from a moment that truly presents him as a hero. It's pretty clear that Cena wouldn't be as much of a polarizing figure had WWE not encouraged the division. A simple, uncomplicated angle for a change could go a long way in benefiting his legacy.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 21:49:31 GMT -5
John Cena prefers the WWE name and everything that makes it "the WWE" over the people in charge imposing their will because they can. Simple as that. The people in charge imposing their will ARE the WWE. They make it what is it. That's what the audience has been beaten over the head with for years. Chairman, CEO's, COO's, general managers, commissioners, guest hosts, executive vice president of talent relations etc.... WWE has been defined by authority figures since the Attitude Era.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Aug 28, 2013 21:52:22 GMT -5
Stephanie McMahon - Grand Moff Tarkin I was think the Sarlacc pit monster No, that's Ryback.........you do have to feed him more after all.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 21:53:41 GMT -5
Ryback is Greedo
He talks tough, but will lose eventually.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2013 22:02:16 GMT -5
John Cena prefers the WWE name and everything that makes it "the WWE" over the people in charge imposing their will because they can. Simple as that. yes, basically Vince McMahon and family could choose to sell the WWE tomorrow, they won't obviously but they can, so they can't be the WWE. But the fanbase would remain. And the titles would remain. And the history would remain. That's all the stuff that's the WWE.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2013 22:03:28 GMT -5
John Cena prefers the WWE name and everything that makes it "the WWE" over the people in charge imposing their will because they can. Simple as that. The people in charge imposing their will ARE the WWE. They make it what is it. That's what the audience has been beaten over the head with for years. Chairman, CEO's, COO's, general managers, commissioners, guest hosts, executive vice president of talent relations etc.... WWE has been defined by authority figures since the Attitude Era. no they really aren't. you feel that way, it's pretty apparent quite a few disagree.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2013 22:08:31 GMT -5
John Cena prefers the WWE name and everything that makes it "the WWE" over the people in charge imposing their will because they can. Simple as that. yes, basically Vince McMahon and family could choose to sell the WWE tomorrow, they won't obviously but they can, so they can't be the WWE. But the fanbase would remain. And the titles would remain. And the history would remain. That's all the stuff that's the WWE. And all of it created by WWE management led by the McMahons as the audience is also constantly reminded, and was reminded as recently as this month. The people in charge imposing their will ARE the WWE. They make it what is it. That's what the audience has been beaten over the head with for years. Chairman, CEO's, COO's, general managers, commissioners, guest hosts, executive vice president of talent relations etc.... WWE has been defined by authority figures since the Attitude Era. no they really aren't. you feel that way, it's pretty apparent quite a few disagree. No, they really are. There's nothing beyond the power structure of the company. A few may disagree, but their rationale is lacking.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 32,426
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Post by Perd on Aug 28, 2013 22:16:43 GMT -5
Mark Henry is Admiral Ackbar because he's used to dealing with traps.
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Post by cool guy on Aug 28, 2013 22:18:35 GMT -5
I'm with Hit Girl, at least in part. If Cena loved the ideals and the fans and the competition, he would say he loves wrestling, because that's what those things represent, not the WWE.
I realize this isn't an intentional choice on the part of the writers; they're attempting to present Cena as a superman-esque perfect good guy, but the way he's been written leaves a big enough hole to justify a heel turn.
I'm not necessarily saying that's the right way to play this, but if handled with care it could be an audacious and memorable storyline.
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Post by salsashark on Aug 28, 2013 22:49:12 GMT -5
Why can't Cena just team with Bryan? Unless WWE plans to chuck out his entire belief system and nonsensically turn him heel, he's got no reason to be a wallflower here. Make Cena jealous that Bryan beat him clean. Make him delusional over the fact that some indy guy beat WWE's top dog (given all the hoopla the company put into hyping the Summerslam match with THAT kind of content). Make Cena angry that the fans have taken to Bryan 100% while they still boo him even though he busts his ass night in and night out. Make Cena cut a promo that he's officially 'bought in' (sold out) because he doesn't have enough money, cars, houses, women, etc., and that he manipulated millions of people so that he could pad his wallet. It's not that hard to do a Cena turn. Cena's gimmick is past being stale to the point of being petrified. Why not have him do something different like work as a full-blown heel? There's already enough to his gimmick as is as a corporate merchandise-shilling asskiss that his character doesn't really need that much tweaking. "I will be behind WWE for the rest of my life. And who's WWE right now? Triple H." Boom. It's not that hard to book, and it's not even that non-sensical given the character's flip-flopping moral scruples. And that's simply dealing with the kayfabe issues. Practically, barring a match with the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, there is no match, no permutation of a match, and no combination of talent that I honestly care about Cena getting involved with. He's done it all: Wrestlemanias, countless title victories, movies, TV shows. How much more can he accomplish, honestly? And given the number of injuries he's had over the years (bicep, neck, elbow), I'd rather Cena start moving into post-2002 HBK territory, where he moves from the top spot and gives someone else a chance to shine, so that he doesn't end up in a wheelchair or worse. Cena should be passing the torch now (in spite of the fact that WWE spins it that Cena JUST got the torch this year from the Rock, which would be stupid if it wasn't so funny). Look, Cena's a great wrestler and can cut a great promo when he's serious (I hate his yelling-rambling promos) and doesn't abuse his spot to take shots at guys who have no chance of firing a comeback or retort at him (see: burying Ziggler's past gimmicks). But the dude's been 'the Man' of WWE since 2005. It's 2013. In this TV era, Cena's basically had three '1980s era Hulk Hogan' runs. How is Cena doing the same old, same old schtick riveting in any sort of way, other than 'well, he has great matches'? I want something different. Cena to me is not that. Bryan is. Bryan's hot right now, and if WWE can keep the fan support stoked, to then strap a rocket on Bryan come the Royal Rumble leading up to Wrestlemania, he'll be huge. Not just the 1C babyface of the company. And nowhere did I say that Cena had to be a wallflower in all this (with the exception of suggesting that he works HBK-style when it comes to his schedule). A heel turn would likely mean he'd be on TV just as much as he has been as a face. Hell, the proposed Cena/Taker match I suggested would likely main-event Wrestlemania 30 over Bryan/Orton (and honestly? rightfully so, because that match would be huge). Which in the end is fine if the goal in the end is to smash Bryan over as The Guy in the interim or as the end goal ('hey, Bryan beat Cena clean again! Cena, the guy who made the Undertaker tap out!'). And anyone can be The Guy with the right angle, the right booking, and the right amount of fan support. And right now, that's Daniel Bryan. Seriously, how much over does John Cena need to be? How much over does WWE need John Cena to be? It's absurd. He's the pinnacle. He's already hit his ceiling years ago. And while a new Corporation isn't the most novel of long-term storylines, it's a bit different having Bryan in the driver's seat for it than Cena. Change is as good as a rest. Right now, Cena's resting because of injury. Why not change his booking when he comes back on top of that? Watching John Cena play the conquering hero (again) in the end feels like it's justified with a simple shoulder shrug. "Well, because Cena." And for me, "because Cena" isn't good enough, let alone as an argument, especially when he's in the way of someone who has the potential to be the next major babyface of the company, the next 'Man', if you will. Hell, I even jumped through the "hey, Cena's a good wrestler, guys" hoop, because a) it's true, he is a good wrestler, and b) people still think that if you hate Cena as a character it's because of everything but the fact that watching a Cena main-event program from 2005 dealing with Bischoff's shenanigans and a Cena main-event program from 2013 dealing with Vince McMahon and Triple H's shenanigans is basically a re-run that I've already seen many, many times. What a post. Incredible. Five stars, Dave Prazak. Seriously.
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