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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Aug 28, 2013 23:09:11 GMT -5
They ARE the WWE. There is no "WWE" outside of the corporate management we are presented with. "WWE" as an organisation is entirely represented by corrupt, abusive, authority figures. This vague, undefined WWE that Cena professes his love and loyalty to doesn't exist beyond that well if that was the case then the Summer of Punk should have never happened because John Cena never would have forced Vince to give him his title shot. To play Devil's Advocate, this can be explained in two ways. First off, he demanded the challenge with Punk for the same reason that, in a sea of choices, he went with Daniel Bryan: He needs to go against the best to prove he's the best. Not every heel is a coward; hell, guys like Ivan Drago actively sought out the strongest people they could find so they could take them down and prove why they and the empire they stand for are superior. As for the other half, and what makes it different from Bryan, was that there was little risk with Punk. Think about it: Punk pretty much said he was leaving with the WWE Title, emphasis on leaving. Cena won, Punk left with his tail between his legs; Cena lost and that's still one of the few people who was capable of beating him gone from the company. Bryan didn't leave, meaning the man who bested him in combat - clean - is still on the roster and still an active threat to his position in the hierarchy.
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Post by sunnytaker on Aug 29, 2013 7:33:53 GMT -5
Miz would be Wedge- one of the good guys that pops up everyone once in a while, doesn't really do much very memorable at the time yet somehow manages to be part of all the big battles and survives despite the odds (movie versions that is- i know there's the whole rogue squadron things where wedge gets to be the star). the recognizable warm body if you weel (TM dusty).
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Post by thevarzens on Aug 29, 2013 9:31:06 GMT -5
I actually think Cena should make a comeback while Bryan is being beaten, shooing away all the bad guys and then turn on Bryan. Then he would grab a mic and say that Bryan was never intended to be champion, the plan was for Cena to beat him and then lay down for Orton to cash-in, seeing as Cena was injured. Talk about how Bryan is not qualified to hang with the big dogs, how his win was a fluke and only happened because Cena was injured. Have Cena turn to the fans and say that he got sick and tired of working his ass off and never be appreciated by no-one other than WWE management. That is why he's on HHH's side, yadda yadda, BOOM, heel turn
Not being sarcastic, BTW
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Aug 29, 2013 9:56:01 GMT -5
When I look back at it all, The first thing I remember is Anti Establishment John Cena.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 29, 2013 10:40:11 GMT -5
I actually think Cena should make a comeback while Bryan is being beaten, shooing away all the bad guys and then turn on Bryan. Then he would grab a mic and say that Bryan was never intended to be champion, the plan was for Cena to beat him and then lay down for Orton to cash-in, seeing as Cena was injured. Talk about how Bryan is not qualified to hang with the big dogs, how his win was a fluke and only happened because Cena was injured. Have Cena turn to the fans and say that he got sick and tired of working his ass off and never be appreciated by no-one other than WWE management. That is why he's on HHH's side, yadda yadda, BOOM, heel turn Not being sarcastic, BTW The whole 'laying down for Orton' and how Bryan was never supposed to be champion thing makes no sense because Cena in storyline has rarely seen eye to eye with Vince and his ideals. If the end game was giving the belt to Orton. Why not have Orton cash in on a random Raw or have Triple H fast count Bryan in the actual match?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 29, 2013 12:27:44 GMT -5
I'd love for Cena to turn heel and join McMahon/Trips/whoever as a means of trying to keep Bryan from taking his spot. He's already beaten Cena once, so it would make sense for the former Champ to maybe start sweating over his position. That's good storytelling. But Cena doesn't really care about status. He only cares about entertaining the fans. WWE actually has a chance to make people like Cena by keeping him as he is but still letting Bryan have the top spot. Why ruin that by making the show all about "John Cena has turned his back on the WWE Universe"? Cena's dominance has always been his #1 flaw and WWE now gets a do-over. Let Cena be the new One on One Wit Da Undatakah guy or something.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 29, 2013 13:16:08 GMT -5
You keep going back to the idea of Cena as the "conquering hero", and as I mentioned before, that's not what I'm asking for. If Cena's healthy enough to work a show and the Corporation still lives, then he might as well come running down the aisle with a chair to take out the Shield, allowing Bryan to finish Orton off, win the belt and get his uninterrupted confetti. That doesn't steal Bryan's glory, that evens up the odds. And in the end, it puts Bryan firmly in a 1A position, marks a substantial change, everybody's happy. And to be honest, if this were Cena in Bryan's place, there'd be no difference. He's never been booked to be able to decisively beat the Shield unless it's by DQ, so he would certainly spend the next few shows getting pounded and laid out by them and Orton much like Bryan. This isn't a scenario that one wrestler, perhaps not even Hulk Hogan circa 1988, could overcome without some assistance. Having Bryan beat them all by himself would be just as ludicrous as Cena doing it, so if this is still going on, not having John lend a hand just strikes me as poor writing. As for how much more over Cena needs to be? Well, considering WWE keeps f***ing him over by having other faces crap all over him (and lie, let's be honest- he hasn't shown himself to be a "kissass" at any point during his current face run) because they insist on maintaining one narrative in his stories, he could really benefit from a moment that truly presents him as a hero. It's pretty clear that Cena wouldn't be as much of a polarizing figure had WWE not encouraged the division. A simple, uncomplicated angle for a change could go a long way in benefiting his legacy. Point by point: - It's certainly possible that Cena helping Bryan would be analogous to Austin helping Mankind beat the Rock in 1998. But, I'm skeptical if only because of Cena's godlike status as The Man, he'll overshadow what transpires in the ring. To me, I see a Cena assist more along the lines of Hulk Hogan helping Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 9. A feud between Hart and Yokozuna became about Hulk Hogan. I can see in 2013 a feud between Randy Orton and Daniel Bryan turning into one about John Cena. And again, I wonder why anyone can't be the new #1 guy? Why does Cena, with his injuries, his beyond boring gimmick, his complete saturation of the product, STILL have to be the #1 guy? As Catch_Us/Miz says, why can't Cena transition into an Undertaker role? As I've already indicated, Cena's accomplished so much, there's nothing left for him to do, except, in this case, bring up guys to the main-event level, pass the torch, and have them be the new #1 guy of the company. Keeping Bryan as the 1A guy squanders his potential, when he's over with the fans (like John Cena is, regardless of cheers and boos), when he has great matches (just like John Cena does), and is believable as a plucky underdog babyface (unlike John Cena, but let's give WWE credit for trying to spin that yarn still). - Cena's never really had the Shield in his sights in terms of a blood feud like Bryan has, given that Bryan's been feuding with the Shield off and on longer than Cena has. Mind you, I never said that Bryan had to beat the Shield one-on-one, plus, in my first post, I suggested that Bryan team up with someone like Punk (another top level babyface) while Cena's out. You could even have Triple H bring on Heyman and Lesnar as hired guns for the Corporation. And yes, while they were feuding just this year, let us remember that Austin teamed up with Vince McMahon at Wrestlemania 17 despite having hated the man for the past four years prior, and on the very next night teamed up with Triple H who beat him in a blood feud two months before and tried to end his career with vehicular assault a year before that. Triple H brings in Lesnar, which necessitates Punk's involvement, boom. Bryan has someone watching his back (despite their personal differences, see 2012) who doesn't have to be John Cena. And again, because of Cena's godlike status, it's really hard to stretch credulity as to the fact that John Cena couldn't beat the Shield by himself (especially if shenanigans were kept at bay). Cena's the guy who beat Awesome Truth, the two guys who made the whole WWE lockerroom feel unsafe and walk out, single-handedly on TV mere weeks after asking the Rock to help him because he couldn't do it by himself. Sure, blame WWE's booking, but thinking that Cena couldn't get the job done against the Shield one-on-one is like thinking Hogan couldn't get the job done against Hercules, Butch Reed, and Ron Bass in the same scenario. - It's kind of funny how we're quibbling over the fact that John Cena, the 11 time WWE champion, 2 time World Heavyweight champion, former multi-time U.S. and Tag Team champion, two-time Royal Rumble winner, multiple Wrestlemania main-even talent, someone who has beaten top stars like the Rock, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, and Brock Lesnar, who has been the face of the company for the past EIGHT years, somehow has to worry about his 'legacy' simply because fans don't cheer him enough as a hero, and that WWE doesn't book him enough as such. WWE encouraged the division, sure, but they certainly didn't listen to fans back in 2005-2006 who chanted 'Cena sucks!' beforehand. They had Their Guy and stuck with it, to hell with what fans thought. And they've made a lot of money with it, and so has John Cena. But the fact that John Cena still gets booed, be it because people simply like to boo him because it's fun or out of a general dislike for the gimmick, is telling because that ship of 100% fan support has long sailed, got lost at sea, and sunk. Even the sympathy Cena garnered from the Nexus angle (remember the 'never give up' chants?) was short-lived. But there IS someone on the roster who gets a lot of positive fan support, who fans like to cheer and like to cheer with, and who recently beat Cena clean as a sheet. Why don't we worry about HIS legacy, since he's just starting his legacy right now, rather than the guy who's a surefire Hall of Fame talent, and the guy who had the unenviable job of keeping the company afloat after the Attitude Era bubble popped, and the guy who ostensibly has nothing more to accomplish and who could easily retire tomorrow in physical comfort and financial security with a feeling of satisfaction. Look, I get it: you're a Cena guy. And I'm not. But I'm not really a Bryan guy per se, though I do like him a lot. But I'm really hard-pressed as to how many more stories of Cena overcoming odds, Cena being unable to lift X heavy guy, Cena fighting against two, three, five men, Cena making an impossible comeback, Cena still weathering his 'controversial' persona despite the ire of the WWE universe, Cena unsure if he can stay as the top dog of WWE, and so on and so forth, can be told, let alone be told believably. Whereas I see more upside for Bryan to be in that role. Can Cena play a part in Bryan's stories? No doubt. Perhaps even a central one if Cena were to turn heel or make clear to fans in a passing of the torch moment that Bryan is now The Guy. But should Cena STILL be the locus of WWE television? I remain unconvinced. To me, the winds of change are blowing in one direction, but yet I shudder to think that with Cena's return in a few months, we'll be right back to square one, that the show will be on autopilot again, that I could easily turn on a program from a couple of years ago and see a rerun. And as a fan of wrestling who watches WWE the most when it comes to wrestling, it's beyond frustrating to see WWE returning to the Cena well over and over again when it's pretty much ran dry, and that there's a new well right next to it that they'll rely on a little bit, but once Cena's back, we're back in the same repetitive cycle of stagnation--you can't see me, the champ is here, my time is now--that simply, to me, isn't worth watching anymore.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 29, 2013 13:17:44 GMT -5
I just want to swoop in to CM Punk Grammar Slam something for a moment:
"WWE are morons" is wrong, because WWE is a single entity.
"WWE is moronic" or "WWE would be moronic-" would work better.
Thank you for your time, carry on.
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Post by thevarzens on Aug 29, 2013 15:42:02 GMT -5
I actually think Cena should make a comeback while Bryan is being beaten, shooing away all the bad guys and then turn on Bryan. Then he would grab a mic and say that Bryan was never intended to be champion, the plan was for Cena to beat him and then lay down for Orton to cash-in, seeing as Cena was injured. Talk about how Bryan is not qualified to hang with the big dogs, how his win was a fluke and only happened because Cena was injured. Have Cena turn to the fans and say that he got sick and tired of working his ass off and never be appreciated by no-one other than WWE management. That is why he's on HHH's side, yadda yadda, BOOM, heel turn Not being sarcastic, BTW The whole 'laying down for Orton' and how Bryan was never supposed to be champion thing makes no sense because Cena in storyline has rarely seen eye to eye with Vince and his ideals. If the end game was giving the belt to Orton. Why not have Orton cash in on a random Raw or have Triple H fast count Bryan in the actual match? Because they would like to have an ace up their sleeves? Why give away that the hero is going to become a villain if he's going away for a couple of months? And the whole plan wasn't to give Orton the belt, Orton simply had the MITB contract and was someone they could trust to help keep the belt where they wanted it Also, Cena simply realized that if it weren't for Vince's mindset, Cena would have never reached where he is at. He got to remain in the spotlight even when the fans hated his guts and were tired of him, all because he's the kind of superstar Vince McMahon likes and because he doesn't mind doing anything they ask him to. Why fight against the ones who gave you everything you have, when you can keep your lifestyle and stay out of trouble? Yeah, Cena is a hero, but he became hated for it
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 29, 2013 15:46:27 GMT -5
My opinion in there wasn't a big conspiracy at Summerslam. Trips was willing to let the show end with Bryan as champ if he had to. Then he saw Orton come out and just pose with the briefcase and decided to take action before Orton accidentally threw away his title match the way Cena did last year
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Post by Starshine on Aug 29, 2013 18:36:03 GMT -5
I'd love for Cena to turn heel and join McMahon/Trips/whoever as a means of trying to keep Bryan from taking his spot. He's already beaten Cena once, so it would make sense for the former Champ to maybe start sweating over his position. That's good storytelling. But Cena doesn't really care about status. He only cares about entertaining the fans. WWE actually has a chance to make people like Cena by keeping him as he is but still letting Bryan have the top spot. Why ruin that by making the show all about "John Cena has turned his back on the WWE Universe"? Cena's dominance has always been his #1 flaw and WWE now gets a do-over. Let Cena be the new One on One Wit Da Undatakah guy or something. Call it character development. He's been the top dog for so long, how would he cope losing that spot to someone else? Good stories need strong conflict, and this is the strongest one they can give us.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 29, 2013 18:51:45 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan in trouble. Orton about to finish him off. HHH smiling and nods in approval. Orton prepares to RKO Bryan Cena's music hits. He walks down to the ring. Gets in. Orton looks scared. He then smiles at Orton and hits DB with the Attitude Adjustment. Orton gets the pin, because Brad Maddox is the ref. Cena, Orton and HHH celebrate in the ring over DB's corpse Cole - "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? " If children are crying in the audience, that's a super bonus. The next night on RAW, the commentators should do their Owen voice and make it seem as though the world ended.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 29, 2013 19:49:40 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan in trouble. Orton about to finish him off. HHH smiling and nods in approval. Orton prepares to RKO Bryan Cena's music hits. He walks down to the ring. Gets in. Orton looks scared. He then smiles at Orton and hits DB with the Attitude Adjustment. Orton gets the pin, because Brad Maddox is the ref. Cena, Orton and HHH celebrate in the ring over DB's corpse Cole - "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? " If children are crying in the audience, that's a super bonus. The next night on RAW, the commentators should do their Owen voice and make it seem as though the world ended. that is so dumb. And the children crying comment... I hope Cena not only never changes his current character I hope he starts recycling promos if adult fans are going to react that way to kids in the audience
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 29, 2013 20:02:12 GMT -5
Daniel Bryan in trouble. Orton about to finish him off. HHH smiling and nods in approval. Orton prepares to RKO Bryan Cena's music hits. He walks down to the ring. Gets in. Orton looks scared. He then smiles at Orton and hits DB with the Attitude Adjustment. Orton gets the pin, because Brad Maddox is the ref. Cena, Orton and HHH celebrate in the ring over DB's corpse Cole - "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? " If children are crying in the audience, that's a super bonus. The next night on RAW, the commentators should do their Owen voice and make it seem as though the world ended. that is so dumb. And the children crying comment... I hope Cena not only never changes his current character I hope he starts recycling promos if adult fans are going to react that way to kids in the audience It isn't dumb. It's a plot development. Cena is stale. If kids cry it means that the heel turn has emotional resonance, like Hogan's turn did. Seriously dude, it's already PG. Let's not aim any lower.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 29, 2013 23:50:43 GMT -5
I actually think Cena should make a comeback while Bryan is being beaten, shooing away all the bad guys and then turn on Bryan. Then he would grab a mic and say that Bryan was never intended to be champion, the plan was for Cena to beat him and then lay down for Orton to cash-in, seeing as Cena was injured. Talk about how Bryan is not qualified to hang with the big dogs, how his win was a fluke and only happened because Cena was injured. Have Cena turn to the fans and say that he got sick and tired of working his ass off and never be appreciated by no-one other than WWE management. That is why he's on HHH's side, yadda yadda, BOOM, heel turn Not being sarcastic, BTW The whole 'laying down for Orton' and how Bryan was never supposed to be champion thing makes no sense because Cena in storyline has rarely seen eye to eye with Vince and his ideals. I think what most people don't get is that when people boo Cena, most are not doing it because his *character* is a corporate billboard cartoon character, but rather because that's how they perceive the *real him* (fair or unfair). His character is written in such a way that he's supposed to be this moral, righteous guy, but his detractors ignore that (contrived) narrative, because they see him as this shill who says and does and is what WWE wants him to be at all times and never changes or grows; as well as a guy who had a character initially they liked -- but was then changed to make him this ultimate, often-contradictory white hat cash-cow. The lines between kayfabe and perceived reality are blurred to these detractors. They see Cena, whether WWE write him to seem just or not, as a phony hypocrite who sold out what got him over to become a complete shtick-spewing WWE mascot. And that's why they want him heel. To justify their hate. To go "see, he IS A phony!" Not that they're right, though. But that's the perception. So, when his fans use examples like "He's always shown disdain for Vince's business practices", his detractors go, "ya, maybe in this fake storyline". It's just another kind of mark, though. Cena is a triple inception! lol. No one knows what's really going on. His fans want to buy into the narrative. And his haters want to believe he's a corporate stooge "just playing the ham-fisted role of hero". But the real him is a simple Boston guy with a foul mouth but huge work ethic, taking both their dollars. Haha.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 30, 2013 1:29:32 GMT -5
The whole 'laying down for Orton' and how Bryan was never supposed to be champion thing makes no sense because Cena in storyline has rarely seen eye to eye with Vince and his ideals. I think what most people don't get is that when people boo Cena, most are not doing it because his *character* is a corporate billboard cartoon character, but rather because that's how they perceive the *real him* (fair or unfair). His character is written in such a way that he's supposed to be this moral, righteous guy, but his detractors ignore that (contrived) narrative, because they see him as this shill who says and does and is what WWE wants him to be at all times and never changes or grows; as well as a guy who had a character initially they liked -- but was then changed to make him this ultimate, often-contradictory white hat cash-cow. The lines between kayfabe and perceived reality are blurred to these detractors. They see Cena, whether WWE write him to seem just or not, as a phony hypocrite who sold out what got him over to become a complete shtick-spewing WWE mascot. And that's why they want him heel. To justify their hate. To go "see, he IS A phony!" Not that they're right, though. But that's the perception. So, when his fans use examples like "He's always shown disdain for Vince's business practices", his detractors go, "ya, maybe in this fake storyline". It's just another kind of mark, though. Cena is a triple inception! lol. No one knows what's really going on. His fans want to buy into the narrative. And his haters want to believe he's a corporate stooge "just playing the ham-fisted role of hero". But the real him is a simple Boston guy with a foul mouth but huge work ethic, taking both their dollars. Haha. Really, WWE seem to write him as a just hero only about half of the time, while otherwise they seem more than content to stoke the "Cena the phony" narrative (ex: the Rock, Punk, and Bryan feuds, and all three of those guys were pushed as faces at the time so their words were obviously meant to carry some weight). And you're spot on- they're obviously not right. But there's a simple solution to this: WWE can just tell his haters the truth. Ideally, I would have had Bryan build up Cena during their feud- instead of him dressing Cena down and branding him a fraud, he praises his abilities and accomplishments but still insists he's going to beat him and become the new WWE champ. IMO, the narrative of Bryan beating the kayfabed best wrestler on the planet would have made for a way more seminal moment than Bryan exposing a nude emperor. Now of course Cena still would have had a fraction of detractors, but it's easy to assume his boos at the Staples Center would have been nowhere as loud had the storyline put both him and Bryan on an equal "honorable" plane, and the crowd reactions probably would have been even louder with both guys having an equal amount of support. But apparently WWE didn't see it that way.
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Post by botchingitup on Aug 30, 2013 2:33:44 GMT -5
Radio Clash playing up Cena and trying to turn him into the main hero of the story? Well I never! I didn't even mind all that much until you spoke of making Bryan his "Zack Ryder-like buddy." Even if not deliberate, if there's even the faintest chance, it shouldn't happen. This should not be Cena's story. Period. Say whatever you want about kayfabe, but one cannot shake that Cena is exactly the corporate face that the company wants in kayfabe.
His rebellion feels if nothing else like an intent on the part of the non-kayfabe version of the same company acting as the villains to ploy people into continuing liking Cena against all odds.
John Cena's schtick is that he bleeds and breathes WWE. It's who he is. What that means is literally anyone's guess. Does he like management? No. He hates Vince McMahon because it will get him the greatest amount of crowd support and it's scientifically manipulated to work that way. Does it mean he likes fans? Well sure. But that can mean pretty much any kind of wrestling fan, as he's an entertainer. It's not exclusive to the WWE other than it's the WWE that employs him. So now that the curtain is drawn back and we see that the WWE is literally, in story, consisting of wrestlers who are manipulated at every last turn by the evil management that has an iron grip on every facet of what it does, why the hell does John Cena live and breathe WWE? World Wrestling Entertainment is full of evil overlords.
It shouldn't make any more sense for it to be the same Cena anymore as it is. Do a story based around that hit to his self-concept. That would actually be interesting. Don't make him the protagonist. Don't connect him to Bryan anymore than you'd connect anyone else fighting the regime. Give him his own time.
Can Cena participate and stay face? Sure. Should he be the primary face? No. Should he be a mentor to Bryan who knows more than he does? No.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 30, 2013 2:44:41 GMT -5
I think that HHH vs. Cena would make a great WM30 match as long as it's not the main event. Like you could easily make the story that HHH has never liked Cena and only tolerated him because Vince was too stubborn to give up on him despite the fact that "no one" likes him. Hunner drones on and on about how he's going to take Cena behind the barn and mercy kill him for THIS BUSINESS.
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EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
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Post by EyeofTyr on Aug 30, 2013 2:51:18 GMT -5
I think that HHH vs. Cena would make a great WM30 match as long as it's not the main event. Like you could easily make the story that HHH has never liked Cena and only tolerated him because Vince was too stubborn to give up on him despite the fact that "no one" likes him. Hunner drones on and on about how he's going to take Cena behind the barn and mercy kill him for THIS BUSINESS. So...basically a repeat of the last time they had a match at Wrestlemania?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 30, 2013 2:58:11 GMT -5
I think that HHH vs. Cena would make a great WM30 match as long as it's not the main event. Like you could easily make the story that HHH has never liked Cena and only tolerated him because Vince was too stubborn to give up on him despite the fact that "no one" likes him. Hunner drones on and on about how he's going to take Cena behind the barn and mercy kill him for THIS BUSINESS. So...basically a repeat of the last time they had a match at Wrestlemania? Yeah, except this time HHH wins. You can even have Michael Cole put on the "Owen Hart voice" and say, "Triple H has buried John Cena."
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