SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 12, 2013 12:35:53 GMT -5
The bottom line is that the business isn't the same business as it was. It's not a last stop for washed up athletes or ex-bouncers doing it solely to make a living because they have no other options. For the bulk of today's talent, they grew up on the national presentation of WWF or WCW, and fell in love with it through the eyes of a fan. So, when they "win" a belt, they don't see it as a meaningless prop or plot device, they see it as the culmination of their fandom and the cementing of their own legacy -- joining an indelible list in history, penned forever alongside their heroes; those larger than life people that drove them to love it in the first place.
It may seem silly, but for example, Joe Hennig winning the IC belt, the same title as his father,IS special. I don't care if it is scripted and contrived. There's a connection. And AJ feels the same. So, so what? I'd personally rather have a roster of AJ's, than a roster with a Brock Lesnar mindset. People with "it's just a job" mentalities have caused far more headaches in this industry than any mark after all.
That said, In 10-15 years this mentality will be dead so it'll all be moot regardless. Because everyone still working will have been brought up in the new WWE age.
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DIIV
ALF
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Posts: 1,017
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Post by DIIV on Sept 12, 2013 13:06:05 GMT -5
The bottom line is that the business isn't the same business as it was. It's not a last stop for washed up athletes or ex-bouncers doing it solely to make a living because they have no other options. For the bulk of today's talent, they grew up on the national presentation of WWF or WCW, and fell in love with it through the eyes of a fan. So, when they "win" a belt, they don't see it as a meaningless prop or plot device, they see it as the culmination of their fandom and the cementing of their own legacy -- joining an indelible list in history, penned forever alongside their heroes; those larger than life people that drove them to love it in the first place. It may seem silly, but for example, Joe Hennig winning the IC belt, the same title as his father,IS special. I don't care if it is scripted and contrived. There's a connection. And AJ feels the same. So, so what? I'd personally rather have a roster of AJ's, than a roster with a Brock Lesnar mindset. People with "it's just a job" mentalities have caused far more headaches in this industry than any mark after all. That said, In 10-15 years this mentality will be dead so it'll all be moot regardless. Because everyone still working will have been brought up in the new WWE age. This should've been the first post in this thread.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 13, 2013 2:00:07 GMT -5
Personally, I think Dave is missing the actual point of the tattoo. I don't think it's any sort of mark-ish commemorating of her title win, it's more of an overall symbolic thing, that she's living her dream. It was just the simplest way to do so.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 2:15:12 GMT -5
The tattoo is less about the title and more about "I made it here after all the nonsense."
God, stuff like this makes me understand the Nash's and Brock's of the world more. Why should you work your tail off on a full schedule, beating the hell out of yourself and touring with this company of weird jerks all the time when you've constantly got to work on eggshells? It's ridiculous. This is the sort of attitude that, in my jobs at least, we would totally blow off and mock the person who got all butthurt about the tattoo forever over.
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deancubed
Don Corleone
Playing League of Legends
Posts: 1,350
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Post by deancubed on Sept 13, 2013 3:24:44 GMT -5
Now, I didn't push them to sign me, and while I worked hard at what I did and I looked up to everyone on that wall, I didn't make a Jay-Z record. My album was (and this is true) full of songs about being a geek. There's a song about picking up chicks on World of Warcraft, there's a song about living in my parent's basement. I didn't go through any childhood struggle or trauma compared to say, Eminem, or Tupac. But I have had struggles in my life, and people that know me, know what those struggles are. The End. Can I have a link to your music? I quite like some of the "nerdcore" stuff myspace.com/embassynerdcoreThere's 4 tracks, some of which did not make the final album, but have fun ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Also, on topic - what would people say if Punk gave himself a 'Best in the World' tat? Wouldn't that be the same thing since his BITW moniker is a completely fictional thing associated with CM Punk the character and not Phil the man?
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Post by pepsitwist on Sept 13, 2013 4:01:15 GMT -5
Meltzer is an idiot. More evidence can be found here:
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,066
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Sept 13, 2013 4:07:46 GMT -5
Meltzer is an idiot. More evidence can be found here: As as I recall, he bought that mansion months before Shawn covered him at WrestleMania 16 and held him down for the pin and Bret was unable to kick out and lost the title, legit....Right, Hulkster?
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Post by celticjobber on Sept 13, 2013 4:19:40 GMT -5
Meltzer is an idiot. More evidence can be found here: Nah, I take that as evidence that he lives in a bubble of non-stop MMA and pro wrestling (and occasionally other sports like baseball and soccer). So Dave has no time for anything else, aside from the 80's and 90's TV shows "Dallas", "Beverly Hills: 90210", and "Friends".
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Post by oniloco on Sept 13, 2013 5:41:38 GMT -5
Putting aside the idea that she possibly wants to celebrate something she worked hard for, how do we all know it's not just a great example of 'living the character'?
Froma kayfabe perspective maybe she's extremely proud, and from an professional perspective maybe she's just very dedicated? (kinda like when John Tenta altered his Tiger tattoo)
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 13, 2013 5:54:26 GMT -5
I don't see whats so wrong about what he said. He's stating what the perception is backstage when it comes to being a mark for a belt in the wrestling business and aj essencially marking for her accomplishment. I guess i missed the point that's got so many people up in arms about this, but i don't understand why people are so upset about the comments other than it having to do with aj. You don't agree with people being up in arms about it or you literally don't understand why? 'Cause I'm just telling you, there's been like a dozen different people who all said why this makes the wrestling business look like some carnival shit run by man-children and they wish it'd grow up. I think it's more confusion that people are reacting angrily over Meltzer, who's main "crime" has been to point out that insane mindset backstage. Granted, Meltzer's responses to it have been worded horribly, and as I said before the hosts seem to come off as too condescending in their original segment, but the guy's, at the core, just basically pointing out how screwed up backstage life is.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 13, 2013 7:31:22 GMT -5
semi-related note, but anyone remember the story that was going around about how difficult Ahmed Johnson became to work with after placing somewhere in the PWI 500's top 10 or 25 one year?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 13, 2013 7:40:18 GMT -5
semi-related note, but anyone remember the story that was going around about how difficult Ahmed Johnson became to work with after placing somewhere in the PWI 500's top 10 or 25 one year? He also thought, based on his high ranking, that he should be paid more. Funnily enough, dude became Faarooq/Nation bitch soon after that, and then blew his final push by getting injured.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 13, 2013 7:45:49 GMT -5
It doesn't break hearts. What it does is show what's wrong with wrestling that undercard belts are seen as worthless. Back in the day, the undercard titles like the tag team and Intercontinental championships were more meaningful than the WWE Championship is NOW. Laughing at people who are "marks" for undercard titles is a sign of wrestling priorities declining over time. As for "pass-around" belts, well who passes them around? The same idiot bookers who then wonder why no one gives a shit about those titles and thus cannot get invested, either emotionally or financially, in paying to see the damn feuds built around them. Wrestling companies are basically saying "Ok these titles mean nothing, we laugh at wrestlers who regard them as being important.....oh now please pay to see them defended on PPV". Sorry, doesn't work that way.
The belts should be linked to what people are paid. The more important a company makes a title, the more people will watch the product and pay for it. If the belts are worthless, then so are the people who hold them. How is that good for business? As for "make believe" belts. It's wrestling. EVERYTHING about it is make believe.
No, there are two groups of people in wrestling. Fans and carnies. The fans are the ones like AJ, who care actually the title they hold. The carnies are the people who don't understand that if you treat titles like shit, on air and backstage, then why should the fans care about them? The same kind of carnies who may mock a wrestler for valuing their title, are the same prison-mentality shitheads who obsess over things like paying dues and locker room handshakes and getting their heat back, or getting their win back or some other bollocks.
If the titles have no respect behind the scenes, it's harder to sell how important they are in interviews. A better approach would be to actually treat the titles and how they are booked and who is chosen to hold them with respect.
Why? They are just as "fake" as all the other titles. Even the world titles don't mean as much as they used to anymore.
It's because wrestling carnies are hypocrites. They wouldn't say anything to Harley Race about a title meaning nothing because he'd probably kick their heads in.
The titles won by a guy over the course of his career ARE the business. Where does a guy like Lawler think the interest is built in wrestling? It's about titles and the meaning given to why these "fake" competitors are competiting for them! I've said it time and time again. In wrestling, the physical belt is a prop. The title though is a macguffin. It's the device that drives plots. If it's not treated with importance, then it won't be meaningful to the story, and in wrestling, no stories = no profit.
Meltzer for all his smarkishness, is just a carny too.
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Post by corndog on Sept 13, 2013 9:20:05 GMT -5
You don't agree with people being up in arms about it or you literally don't understand why? 'Cause I'm just telling you, there's been like a dozen different people who all said why this makes the wrestling business look like some carnival shit run by man-children and they wish it'd grow up. I think it's more confusion that people are reacting angrily over Meltzer, who's main "crime" has been to point out that insane mindset backstage. Granted, Meltzer's responses to it have been worded horribly, and as I said before the hosts seem to come off as too condescending in their original segment, but the guy's, at the core, just basically pointing out how screwed up backstage life is. Exactly, I see this Meltzer just pointing out the messed up backstage views in the business. He does try to justify the views, but I am not sure he endorses them. The other point, largely left out of this thread, is while alot of the current male wrestlers were clearly fans growing up, the women's division is not that way. Sorry, I don't care what they say, I don't see this being the Bella's dream. I think most of the women are there because they failed at other careers, wanted more money and fame or using this as a gateway to their dream job of modeling/acting(and will more than likely fail). Basically, AJ was right in her "pipebomb". While the WWE does seem to have changed their hiring style for woman since Laurenitis's departure, we still have a distance to go for the woman's division to primarily consist of women who want to be wrestlers and don't just use it as a gateway into another job. The good news is HHH is not a fan of women who went to Playboy and probably wants womans wrestlers and not models posing as wrestlers. The odd thing is, I don't understand why the business would want people who don't care about it. Most of these type of wreslters have mainly been detrimental to the business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 11:37:52 GMT -5
I think it's more confusion that people are reacting angrily over Meltzer, who's main "crime" has been to point out that insane mindset backstage. Granted, Meltzer's responses to it have been worded horribly, and as I said before the hosts seem to come off as too condescending in their original segment, but the guy's, at the core, just basically pointing out how screwed up backstage life is. Exactly, I see this Meltzer just pointing out the messed up backstage views in the business. He does try to justify the views, but I am not sure he endorses them. The other point, largely left out of this thread, is while alot of the current male wrestlers were clearly fans growing up, the women's division is not that way. Sorry, I don't care what they say, I don't see this being the Bella's dream. I think most of the women are there because they failed at other careers, wanted more money and fame or using this as a gateway to their dream job of modeling/acting(and will more than likely fail). Basically, AJ was right in her "pipebomb". While the WWE does seem to have changed their hiring style for woman since Laurenitis's departure, we still have a distance to go for the woman's division to primarily consist of women who want to be wrestlers and don't just use it as a gateway into another job. The good news is HHH is not a fan of women who went to Playboy and probably wants womans wrestlers and not models posing as wrestlers. The odd thing is, I don't understand why the business would want people who don't care about it. Most of these type of wreslters have mainly been detrimental to the business. Honestly I'm less concerned about whether they're fans or not than I am of what they put into it. Brock Lesnar is the case-in-point example of "working for money" in wrestling. Yes, this can be applied to guys like Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash and guys like that, but that's just the natural desire for more money, you can look at them and see that they at the heart of it respect pro wrestling. Brock Lesnar's a guy who whenever you hear him talk it's almost as if he hates professional wrestling, although some of that might just be showbiz, it's at least evident that wrestling isn't his first love, but he has a work ethic that doesn't allow him to half ass it. Even guys like Kurt Angle had to really be sold on it, but he gave it his all and became the standout that he did. I don't think wrestling has to exist soley with people who wanted to be in the WWE since they were 6, if it means getting surprised by guys of Lesnar's ilk. But they have to at least show a dedication. I 100% agree that the Divas division is awful, full of people who don't give a shit and wear it like a badge of honor, but then there are people like Layla and Kaitlyn who I don't believe even thought about wrestling until an old executive pervert found them, and aren't exactly future legends or anything but they worked hard and found a respect for it. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 12:34:34 GMT -5
You don't agree with people being up in arms about it or you literally don't understand why? 'Cause I'm just telling you, there's been like a dozen different people who all said why this makes the wrestling business look like some carnival shit run by man-children and they wish it'd grow up. I think it's more confusion that people are reacting angrily over Meltzer, who's main "crime" has been to point out that insane mindset backstage. Granted, Meltzer's responses to it have been worded horribly, and as I said before the hosts seem to come off as too condescending in their original segment, but the guy's, at the core, just basically pointing out how screwed up backstage life is. Seriously, the amount of posts that just insult Meltzer is baffling to me.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Sept 13, 2013 12:35:09 GMT -5
I stopped reading this thread pages ago. I just have to say... 13 pages? really?
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on Sept 13, 2013 12:38:04 GMT -5
Though some of Meltzer's responses are questionable at best, at the beginning, my frustrations were not with him, but rather with the set of behaviours used currently backstage in both major promotions. Meltzer's taken the brunt of simply being the messenger, and somewhat questioning all this himself. He just hasn't helped his stance at times.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 13, 2013 12:43:45 GMT -5
I think the first line is what rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It has a somewhat condescending tone linking fans' like of AJ to having a crush on her.
I like Meltzer. He's a good guy and he's been very important in his field for decades now. His problem, in my eyes, is that he can't separate his journalism from his op-ed pieces. That and he has never invested in an editor for his work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 12:47:11 GMT -5
I think it's more confusion that people are reacting angrily over Meltzer, who's main "crime" has been to point out that insane mindset backstage. Granted, Meltzer's responses to it have been worded horribly, and as I said before the hosts seem to come off as too condescending in their original segment, but the guy's, at the core, just basically pointing out how screwed up backstage life is. Exactly, I see this Meltzer just pointing out the messed up backstage views in the business. He does try to justify the views, but I am not sure he endorses them. The other point, largely left out of this thread, is while alot of the current male wrestlers were clearly fans growing up, the women's division is not that way. Sorry, I don't care what they say, I don't see this being the Bella's dream. I think most of the women are there because they failed at other careers, wanted more money and fame or using this as a gateway to their dream job of modeling/acting(and will more than likely fail). Basically, AJ was right in her "pipebomb". While the WWE does seem to have changed their hiring style for woman since Laurenitis's departure, we still have a distance to go for the woman's division to primarily consist of women who want to be wrestlers and don't just use it as a gateway into another job. The good news is HHH is not a fan of women who went to Playboy and probably wants womans wrestlers and not models posing as wrestlers. The odd thing is, I don't understand why the business would want people who don't care about it. Most of these type of wreslters have mainly been detrimental to the business. Because it's not a benign decision about them making money, like it should be. The wrestling business is run by a bunch of people who truly believe that people representative of 51% of the world's population haven't contributed anything lasting or worthwhile to the business. They'll trot out the handful they always do for token mentions like Trish or somebody, but by and large? They couldn't give a shit. And for AJ's promo to really address the problem, she would've cut that promo on Hunner and Stephanie not the Bellas, but you know damn well they ain't booking her to do that. The Bellas' perceived attitude towards wrestling is just a symptom of a problem the WWE has had for a long time, which is really related to the point AJ made in that promo; WWE treats the Divas division like shit. Again, notice how WWE ain't really getting meta with that. When you look at the problem, it's not so much the Bellas' fault as they're doing what they have to do to take advantage of the shitty system. They don't book the shows. It's like no matter how hard you worked or how much better you became, you're not going to main event WM, nobody's going to book your division so people can give a shit and if by chance you were a fan achieving my dream by being booked to win the only title in your division, gits within the company would treat you like you were some idiot geek negatively affecting your (and possibly everyone else's) pay and prospects. You can't win. I don't agree with people dragging their asses in the ring, but man. As a diva, with your prospects being limited in the first place, combine that with generally not caring enough to book you and all that jazz. Why wouldn't a Diva go there, toil a little bit, then move on the moment something better comes along? All I know is I wouldn't be driving myself crazy, banging up my body in my best years if WWE can't be bothered to give a shit and would just as soon get rid of me the moment I get crow's feet. WWE is all Ringling Brothers with their bullshit, and as is, the booking of the division for ages hasn't been structured to attract the people they (should) want.
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