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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 11:12:10 GMT -5
When it comes to the Diva's title - it may be viewed as an undercard title, nothing compared to the WWE Title or even the WHC, but it's still the only title for women in the WWE. The guys have six title positions that they can aim for and achieve, whereas the women have only one. One freakin' title. So if you're a girl or a young woman watching the WWE and wanting to become a wrestler, the dream is to become Diva's champion, right? Just like for guys it would be to become WWE Champion? I seriously don't get why marking out for the Diva's title is seen as any less than the WWE Championship. Looking back on some of the most popular women in wrestling over the last 25 years, how many of them are remembered for their run with the women's title? I'd argue none of them are. The belt doesn't matter and never did. The most popular females during the Attitude Era were Chyna, Sable, Lita, and if you want to talk strictly from an on-air talent standpoint, then Stephanie as a heel. These women were heavily featured on WWF TV yet how many of them are remembered for their run with the title? Chyna was wrestling men, Sable was more eye candy than anything else, and Lita was the most unique female on the roster. Stephanie was Vince's bratty daughter. It had nothing to do with the title. Even when some of those women held the title, it was more of a vanity prop. If anything, the title was a burden to them, especially Chyna prior to her leaving the company in 2001 since no one was going to buy a woman beating her after she had beaten men. The WWE championship is still presented as a big deal. The women's title never was. Now you can say the WWE should promote the women's title better, and maybe they should, but they haven't. That's reality. The wrestling really does not matter. It's the character. AJ was in a much better spot when she was being shoved down everyone's throats as the (poorly acted) crazy girl bouncing from guy to guy than she is as CM Lee, the wrestling elitist. I guess my point is, if you look at history, a woman who dreams about making the WWE should be more concerned with their character and fame in general than the women's title. Clearly history has shown the women's title doesn't really mean a whole damn much.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Sept 14, 2013 11:45:37 GMT -5
There is absolutely no reason the most athletic diva on the roster should be relegated to dancing valet. Naomi was putting on better matches than divas on the main roster her first year in FCW. With little over a year of actual wrestling under her belt entering NXT 3, Naomi was about on par with AJ who had years of experience on the independent circuit. Waiting until Brodus Clay is released (which may not happen for years down the line) to actually use Naomi's full potential would be a serious ball drop. Also, the "other one" is named Cameron. Her full potential can be explored later. For now, she's best doing what she's doing. Occasional wrestler, more frequent dancer. If they pushed her as a rival to AJ now, AJ would piss on her, especially in terms of mic work. You sure about that? I get that you like AJ and all, but AJ and Naomi are still about on par in ring. In fact, I'd give Naomi a slight edge due to sheer athleticism. Hell, take away the Shining Wizard and Black Widow and AJ's entire moveset is basically elbows and a couple headscissors variants. As far as mic work is concerned, of course AJ would have an advantage there; back when Naomi was relegated to dancing with Brodus, AJ was either opening every other RAW on the mic, or joining Punk or Cena once they opened RAW on the mic. AJ got more mic time on an average RAW than most of the other ladies got the entire year of 2012. Even then, any advantage AJ has over Naomi is slight enough that Naomi could make it up without problem.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 14, 2013 13:08:22 GMT -5
Her full potential can be explored later. For now, she's best doing what she's doing. Occasional wrestler, more frequent dancer. If they pushed her as a rival to AJ now, AJ would piss on her, especially in terms of mic work. You sure about that? I get that you like AJ and all, but AJ and Naomi are still about on par in ring. In fact, I'd give Naomi a slight edge due to sheer athleticism. Hell, take away the Shining Wizard and Black Widow and AJ's entire moveset is basically elbows and a couple headscissors variants. As far as mic work is concerned, of course AJ would have an advantage there; back when Naomi was relegated to dancing with Brodus, AJ was either opening every other RAW on the mic, or joining Punk or Cena once they opened RAW on the mic. AJ got more mic time on an average RAW than most of the other ladies got the entire year of 2012. Even then, any advantage AJ has over Naomi is slight enough that Naomi could make it up without problem. I doubt it, but I'm sure they'll try something with the Funkettes eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 13:17:53 GMT -5
Her full potential can be explored later. For now, she's best doing what she's doing. Occasional wrestler, more frequent dancer. If they pushed her as a rival to AJ now, AJ would piss on her, especially in terms of mic work. You sure about that? I get that you like AJ and all, but AJ and Naomi are still about on par in ring. In fact, I'd give Naomi a slight edge due to sheer athleticism. Hell, take away the Shining Wizard and Black Widow and AJ's entire moveset is basically elbows and a couple headscissors variants. As far as mic work is concerned, of course AJ would have an advantage there; back when Naomi was relegated to dancing with Brodus, AJ was either opening every other RAW on the mic, or joining Punk or Cena once they opened RAW on the mic. AJ got more mic time on an average RAW than most of the other ladies got the entire year of 2012. Even then, any advantage AJ has over Naomi is slight enough that Naomi could make it up without problem. Did she get good on the mic because she had that mic time, or did she get that mic time because she showed some aptitude for it? I'd say the latter. You've got to show something to the people who make decisions in order to get the opportunity, they're not going to throw someone with no skills out there in a big angle with Punk or Cena. Mind you, during that time I couldn't STAND her, but she was at least showing something. Naomi's athleticism is becoming hilarious to me, it is the only thing anyone can say about her, including herself. Unless they're talking about her ass, of course. To me AJ blows Naomi away in the ring because she gets that it's about more than being athletic. If it was all about that Shelton Benjamin would've held the WWE title 434 days instead of CM Punk. That would probably make some people really happy though ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 14, 2013 13:18:42 GMT -5
Jericho used his mic time to get heat on himself.
AJ just squeaks out inchoherent ramblings for now. I want one of the divas to kick her right in the head and take away the divas title.
Naomi is a better wrestler than AJ. AJ is just as good as the other divas. She does her rest holds and a few kicks. That is all she does.
I do believe the girls in nxt like Paige, Summer Rae, and Emma are more complete wrestlers than some of the divas on the main roster. I hope Summer Rae gets to talk and wrestle soon. She plays a great heel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 13:21:17 GMT -5
For all the talk of what kind of phenomenal wrestler AJ is, I'd like to see some proof. She just has a generic diva moveset, and she does it well, and sells well, but that lends more towards being a jobber than being the mainstay of a division.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 14, 2013 13:22:56 GMT -5
AJ is perfectly coherent. She does a lot more than rest holds and kicks. Hopefully Summer Rae can talk and wrestle better than she dances.
No one is seriously claiming she's phenomenal, but she's a capable wrestler.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 13:26:54 GMT -5
For all the talk of what kind of phenomenal wrestler AJ is, I'd like to see some proof. She just has a generic diva moveset, and she does it well, and sells well, but that lends more towards being a jobber than being the mainstay of a division. I think you're mixing her up the other AJ over there in TNA.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 13:49:49 GMT -5
No one is seriously claiming she's phenomenal, but she's a capable wrestler. "No one?" Since she was brought up on the main roster I've seen people saying she is. And the twitter "smark" crowd is even worse about it. It's certainly not the opinion of everyone who likes her, but there's people who are like that. That aside, here is a personal complaint: as a fan of women's wrestling, it kind of sucks that there are no alternatives to AJ right now. Looks-wise she does nothing for me (I don't find her ugly, I just feel nothing when I look at her) and I don't find her a particularly standout wrestler. There's other divas on the roster, but most of them suck and those who have any talent do pretty much nothing wrestling-wise; just cut bitchy cue card promos. Now, if you don't buy WWE's hype that she is a smoldering sex goddess or the female CM Punk of ringworkers, there's nobody to turn to. Nobody else is treated seriously in the ring, and they've fired or retired all their credible female veterans over the past several years and don't seem likely to bring any of them back. It's a Hobson's choice, whereas it used to be, there was a wrestler within every imaginable archetype for every kind of fan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 14:12:34 GMT -5
No one is seriously claiming she's phenomenal, but she's a capable wrestler. " No one?" Since she was brought up on the main roster I've seen people saying she is. And the twitter "smark" crowd is even worse about it. It's certainly not the opinion of everyone who likes her, but there's people who are like that. Again, AJ Lee, not AJ Styles! Okay okay I'll stop now, I know this isn't amusing to anyone but myself.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 14, 2013 14:14:54 GMT -5
No one is seriously claiming she's phenomenal, but she's a capable wrestler. "No one?" Since she was brought up on the main roster I've seen people saying she is. And the twitter "smark" crowd is even worse about it. It's certainly not the opinion of everyone who likes her, but there's people who are like that. That aside, here is a personal complaint: as a fan of women's wrestling, it kind of sucks that there are no alternatives to AJ right now. Looks-wise she does nothing for me (I don't find her ugly, I just feel nothing when I look at her) and I don't find her a particularly standout wrestler. There's other divas on the roster, but most of them suck and those who have any talent do pretty much nothing wrestling-wise; just cut bitchy cue card promos. Now, if you don't buy WWE's hype that she is a smoldering sex goddess or the female CM Punk of ringworkers, there's nobody to turn to. Nobody else is treated seriously in the ring, and they've fired or retired all their credible female veterans over the past several years and don't seem likely to bring any of them back. It's a Hobson's choice, whereas it used to be, there was a wrestler within every imaginable archetype for every kind of fan. I said "no one is seriously" claiming
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Post by celticjobber on Sept 14, 2013 14:19:30 GMT -5
For all the talk of what kind of phenomenal wrestler AJ is, I'd like to see some proof. She just has a generic diva moveset, and she does it well, and sells well, but that lends more towards being a jobber than being the mainstay of a division. To see an example of AJ's great work, watch her match with Kaitlyn from Money in the Bank 2013. AJ is good in the ring, great by modern Divas standards (much better than the Bellas; and Naomi -- who is very athletic but extremely sloppy). And her charisma and mic skills rival all but the very best of the men in WWE. She's the total package.
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The OP
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Post by The OP on Sept 14, 2013 14:30:30 GMT -5
I've only skimmed and not read the last 15 pages so maybe somebody already said this, but I don't think this is Meltzer stating an opinion so much as he's explaining that this is the way some promoters feel about "marks for the belt". Steveweiser makes a good point though in that the Divas Championship, silly name or not, is the top women's title in the top promotion. It's hard for me to see that as a meaningless "pass around belt", it's not like it's the NXT title or something. But to understand what Meltzer is saying, imagine an indie wrestler who works for $10 getting a tattoo of some tiny promotion's undercard belt. I don't see this as being like that, but somebody else might, and if they did the way Meltzer explained it is exactly how they would look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 16:31:52 GMT -5
" No one?" Since she was brought up on the main roster I've seen people saying she is. And the twitter "smark" crowd is even worse about it. It's certainly not the opinion of everyone who likes her, but there's people who are like that. Again, AJ Lee, not AJ Styles! Okay okay I'll stop now, I know this isn't ammusing to anyone but myself. You'd have a good point, alas, AJ is quite in touch with the GAY COMMUNITY as her escapades with Layla indicate. Styles, however, is still stewing over that one in his leather jackets or flair robes or whatever he's donning these days.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Sept 14, 2013 16:40:20 GMT -5
" No one?" Since she was brought up on the main roster I've seen people saying she is. And the twitter "smark" crowd is even worse about it. It's certainly not the opinion of everyone who likes her, but there's people who are like that. Again, AJ Lee, not AJ Styles! Okay okay I'll stop now, I know this isn't ammusing to anyone but myself. My new "AJ Styles not Lee lol" tattoo says otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 16:49:05 GMT -5
I've only skimmed and not read the last 15 pages so maybe somebody already said this, but I don't think this is Meltzer stating an opinion so much as he's explaining that this is the way some promoters feel about "marks for the belt". Steveweiser makes a good point though in that the Divas Championship, silly name or not, is the top women's title in the top promotion. It's hard for me to see that as a meaningless "pass around belt", it's not like it's the NXT title or something. But to understand what Meltzer is saying, imagine an indie wrestler who works for $10 getting a tattoo of some tiny promotion's undercard belt. I don't see this as being like that, but somebody else might, and if they did the way Meltzer explained it is exactly how they would look at it. Yeah, and the backlash, or at least the one I find a bit more on-the-nose, is generally one about how shitty the business is when it comes to people who feel "too much" pride in what they do and how it's just some arbitrary standard the suits and ties attribute to people to justify a negative opinion (and possibly low-ball them on contracts). There's also the "Dude, Get A Friggin' Editor!" and the "Shut The **** Up, Meltzer," opinions. I see where people are coming from on those two.
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Post by molson5 on Sept 14, 2013 17:00:55 GMT -5
I've only skimmed and not read the last 15 pages so maybe somebody already said this, but I don't think this is Meltzer stating an opinion so much as he's explaining that this is the way some promoters feel about "marks for the belt". Yes, and if you listen to and read Meltzer regularly, he's actually a huge fan of AJ. Especially during AJ's big push with Cena and Punk, he was always very complementary of her and at one point described her as one of the best female performers in the history of the company. And more recently, where she's been involved in lower, more crappy storylines, he'd often say, "well, AJ was good, but everything else about this sucked."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 17:27:37 GMT -5
Again, AJ Lee, not AJ Styles! Okay okay I'll stop now, I know this isn't ammusing to anyone but myself. My new "AJ Styles not Lee lol" tattoo says otherwise. The Phenomenal AJ Lee is canon for me now. NO ONE gets ready to fly quite like her.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Sept 14, 2013 17:35:22 GMT -5
Now I'm not trolling here but when has being athletic equate to being a very good wrestler? I mean there is more to wrestling then just doing some flips. To say Naomi is better then AJ just cause she does more flips than her. We really haven't seen Naomi have a lengthy singles match where she told a story in the ring, gets the crowd engaged in the match and makes her opponent look good in the ring.
It's not her fault of course, but you can't say it's a fact that Naomi is better then AJ when she hasn't had a big match so we can see her other skills in the ring other then her flips. Is it possible that Naomi is better then AJ in the ring? Sure, it's just an unknown now.
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Post by frogsplash45 on Sept 14, 2013 17:42:28 GMT -5
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