AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Sept 24, 2013 9:06:29 GMT -5
Seriously? The group who has been using their numbers advantage to beat down individual people for nigh on a year finally gets a taste of their own medicine and the people that give it to them are "bullying jerks"? That logic is so f***ed up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 9:16:57 GMT -5
Seriously? The group who has been using their numbers advantage to beat down individual people for nigh on a year finally gets a taste of their own medicine and the people that give it to them are "bullying jerks"? That logic is so f***ed up. Well, technically, if you want to use logic. Group A uses a numbers advantage on Group B to win matches = cheating heel move. Group B uses a numbers advantage on Group A to win matches = redeeming face move. Logic isn't your friend in this particular scenario. If Group B beats Group A in a fair fight when Group A's cheating ways are neutralized, that's a more logical outcome.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
note to all: he's a pants-less heathen
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Sept 24, 2013 9:24:36 GMT -5
Seriously? The group who has been using their numbers advantage to beat down individual people for nigh on a year finally gets a taste of their own medicine and the people that give it to them are "bullying jerks"? That logic is so f***ed up. Well, technically, if you want to use logic. Group A uses a numbers advantage on Group B to win matches = cheating heel move. Group B uses a numbers advantage on Group A to win matches = redeeming face move. Logic isn't your friend in this particular scenario. If Group B beats Group A in a fair fight when Group A's cheating ways are neutralized, that's a more logical outcome. Logic is my friend. Yeah the face's should always try and do the right thing but sometimes to beat the bad guys you've got to play by their rules. The Shield, as I said has been using their numbers advantage for months, now Bryan and co. gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's how life works. This isn't the face being jerks, it's called the heel's getting their comeuppance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 9:47:48 GMT -5
I just figure it was like the Z Warriors from Dragon Ball Z fighting Nappa and Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga. Two-Thirds of the team had no shot against the Shield in the ring but, with the extra numbers, and Bryan, Ziggler, and the Usos, they could win. Ryder, Truth, and Kofi were merely extra bodies out there. I made the exact same omparison in the Raw thread. but that's not a good thing, because having Goku be the guy who won every important fight made everyone else look incidental. Looking at the larger picture, it's even worse because Cena's ultimately the Goku figure, who's out on Snake's Way trying to get his way back to Earth, while Bryan and the others try to hold down the fort like the Z Warriors until he makes his grand return. I hope Bryan's over enough to at least be the strong secondary face on Raw but I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Sept 24, 2013 9:53:26 GMT -5
I'd like to think that HHH was counting on the Yes Union to be weakened a day demoralized enough for the Shield to pick apart for the main event. That's why we had those matches featuring members of the Union early on. I'd also like to think that said plan blew up in H's face, on the account of unexpected occurrences like the Rhodes family attacking Shield before the match.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Sept 24, 2013 10:01:41 GMT -5
WWE logic 101. 2 wrongs DO make a right. Faces aren't obligated to keep the high moral ground, just bitch about it when they're not winning. I mean, I get the whole "taste of your own medicine" thing, but it basically comes down to an eye for an eye til every superstar's blind. That's not WWE logic so much as is it pro wrestling logic. This sort of thing's been going on at least since the days of Gorgeous George.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:26:00 GMT -5
Well, technically, if you want to use logic. Group A uses a numbers advantage on Group B to win matches = cheating heel move. Group B uses a numbers advantage on Group A to win matches = redeeming face move. Logic isn't your friend in this particular scenario. If Group B beats Group A in a fair fight when Group A's cheating ways are neutralized, that's a more logical outcome. Logic is my friend. Yeah the face's should always try and do the right thing but sometimes to beat the bad guys you've got to play by their rules. The Shield, as I said has been using their numbers advantage for months, now Bryan and co. gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's how life works. This isn't the face being jerks, it's called the heel's getting their comeuppance. "That's how life works." Maybe that's how wrestling works, but that is NOT how life works (unless you're in bizarro world Florida haha!). Logically the two different sides can't use the same methods and hold different moral grounds. We're basically talking about revenge here and there's nothing logical about revenge. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. The faces aren't keeping the moral high ground AND the heels are getting their comeuppance. I'm not saying the faces or jerks or anything like that, but that they're playing by the bad guys rules - which is what makes bad guys bad, so when the "good guys" do it, their victory is kind of muddy to me. Like I said earlier - the 6 man tag on Smackdown felt more like a Win for the Superstars over the Shield & HHH and the Shield getting their comeuppance. Whats even mroe interesting is that HHH set this all up as an "olive branch" of sorts, which is more interesting because it basically just highlights the idea that there aren't good superstars or bad superstars, just those who are "blessed" by management to be in the dominant position and those who aren't. It wasn't like the superstars all rallied together to defeat the Shield - HHH gave them this, he's the one who set it all up, taking the power from the faces and co-opting it for himself. HHH could come out and say, "You all think you're better than Randy Orton or the Shield, but when I gave you half a chance you acted JUST LIKE THEM."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:27:37 GMT -5
WWE logic 101. 2 wrongs DO make a right. Faces aren't obligated to keep the high moral ground, just bitch about it when they're not winning. I mean, I get the whole "taste of your own medicine" thing, but it basically comes down to an eye for an eye til every superstar's blind. That's not WWE logic so much as is it pro wrestling logic. This sort of thing's been going on at least since the days of Gorgeous George. There was wrestling before and/or outside of WWE? Clearly you haven't been watching the product.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 24, 2013 10:53:46 GMT -5
I think people overcomplicate this sort of thing when trying to make the faces out to be the bad guys.
When someone unprovoked attacks people they outnumber and outmanned, it's a heel move. They're blindsiding people, never attempting to fight fair, and not stopping until whoever they're opposite of is laid out.
A large group of people rising up to challenge the people doing it isn't a heel move, they're trying to stop that heel group from being heels in the future so order can be restored. It's more akin to a posse forming to try to bring in a wanted criminal. They aren't bad guys just because there are more of them.
The reasons behind what they're doing matters more than the numbers game.
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Post by sunnytaker on Sept 24, 2013 11:03:07 GMT -5
i think HHH was expecting someone on team Bryan to turn on DB and give Shield the surprise advantage it needed to win. that was why he kept talking about "Hey <wrestler> you're a great talent so why should Daniel bryan be getting a title shot instead of you? when was YOUR last title shot?" at the start of the show. Then he put the stronger members (RVD,Kofi,PTP) in matches so they'd be weakened for the ME- which worked as Kofi and RVD were the first two out. only problem was no one turned on Bryan so HHH's plan failed and Shield fell to the numbers game in the end.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Sept 24, 2013 11:10:06 GMT -5
i think HHH was expecting someone on team Bryan to turn on DB and give Shield the surprise advantage it needed to win. that was why he kept talking about "Hey <wrestler> you're a great talent so why should Daniel bryan be getting a title shot instead of you? when was YOUR last title shot?" at the start of the show. Then he put the stronger members (RVD,Kofi,PTP) in matches so they'd be weakened for the ME- which worked as Kofi and RVD were the first two out. only problem was no one turned on Bryan so HHH's plan failed and Shield fell to the numbers game in the end. Not to mention how Shield got beat down before the match by Cody and Dustin.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Sept 24, 2013 11:43:58 GMT -5
Logic is my friend. Yeah the face's should always try and do the right thing but sometimes to beat the bad guys you've got to play by their rules. The Shield, as I said has been using their numbers advantage for months, now Bryan and co. gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's how life works. This isn't the face being jerks, it's called the heel's getting their comeuppance. "That's how life works." Maybe that's how wrestling works, but that is NOT how life works (unless you're in bizarro world Florida haha!). Logically the two different sides can't use the same methods and hold different moral grounds. We're basically talking about revenge here and there's nothing logical about revenge. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. The faces aren't keeping the moral high ground AND the heels are getting their comeuppance. I'm not saying the faces or jerks or anything like that, but that they're playing by the bad guys rules - which is what makes bad guys bad, so when the "good guys" do it, their victory is kind of muddy to me. Like I said earlier - the 6 man tag on Smackdown felt more like a Win for the Superstars over the Shield & HHH and the Shield getting their comeuppance. Whats even mroe interesting is that HHH set this all up as an "olive branch" of sorts, which is more interesting because it basically just highlights the idea that there aren't good superstars or bad superstars, just those who are "blessed" by management to be in the dominant position and those who aren't. It wasn't like the superstars all rallied together to defeat the Shield - HHH gave them this, he's the one who set it all up, taking the power from the faces and co-opting it for himself. HHH could come out and say, "You all think you're better than Randy Orton or the Shield, but when I gave you half a chance you acted JUST LIKE THEM." Okay maybe I phrased it wrong. This is how pro-wrestling works, unlike in life where there is a lot of grey areas it's much more black and white in wrestling. Earlier on in the show we had a man being cheered because he was running towards (at the time) a wheelchair bound man to "tear his face off". Vigilante justice is something that is accepted as right within the realms of the wrestling world so what Bryan and company did was not a jerk move, it was justice and comeuppance for The Shield. If you want to say that Bryan and his pals were acting heelish then you'd have to totally re-write the rules of how wrestling is booked. For example, we couldn't have a storyline where a tag team of Person A and Person B breaks up and in retaliation Person B heinously attacks Person A putting him out of action for months. In that situation Person A couldn't come back and beat the crap out of Person B as revenge. In this instance Person A would have to have Person B arrested for assault and that would be the end of the storyline as Person B goes to jail. So we can't apply real life logic to wrestling, wrestling has its own logic and to change that you'd have to change the fabric of the business. In short in the world of wrestling Bryan & co. acted as faces should, gave the heels their comeuppance and did nothing wrong whatsoever.
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Post by Some Guy on Sept 24, 2013 11:54:08 GMT -5
To emphasize that The Shield are the bad ass team that it takes major odds to beat, and to help make the audience want to see them get beat that much more, giving a major boost to the guys who actually do get the pins on them in the process. This is actually well done booking. But it kind of made the lower carders look weak. Ryder, Gabriel, Titus, and R-Truth all looked like bitches. The only non main eventers that looked good were the Usos and Darren Young for...reasons. Titus looked pretty damn good, and they hyped up Reigns/Titus big time. I don't think he was hurt at all by that. R-Truth/Ryder/Gabriel look bad all the time anyway.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 24, 2013 12:00:34 GMT -5
The Usos are gay too? The Usos have been steadily pushed for a while, so I kind of expected them to look good. But it does seem kind of suspect that Darren put up decent fight compared to most of the other low carders in the match while his own tag team partner was taken out rather quickly. Especially since the crowd popped rather huge at the prospect of seeing a Reigns/Titus "Power vs. Power" brawl. And then didn't really get much of it.
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Post by Sparvid on Sept 24, 2013 12:12:42 GMT -5
Seriously? The group who has been using their numbers advantage to beat down individual people for nigh on a year finally gets a taste of their own medicine and the people that give it to them are "bullying jerks"? That logic is so f***ed up. Well, technically, if you want to use logic. Group A uses a numbers advantage on Group B to win matches = cheating heel move. Group B uses a numbers advantage on Group A to win matches = redeeming face move. Logic isn't your friend in this particular scenario. If Group B beats Group A in a fair fight when Group A's cheating ways are neutralized, that's a more logical outcome. When the other faces started to surround the ring, I figured that they were basically taking the role of lumberjacks; making it impossible for Rollins to flee and also keeping out the other Shield members, thereby forcing Rollins to go one-on-one with Bryan without the usual number advantage, and giving him his comeuppance. But then they all just started to kick him instead...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 12:30:16 GMT -5
"That's how life works." Maybe that's how wrestling works, but that is NOT how life works (unless you're in bizarro world Florida haha!). Logically the two different sides can't use the same methods and hold different moral grounds. We're basically talking about revenge here and there's nothing logical about revenge. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. The faces aren't keeping the moral high ground AND the heels are getting their comeuppance. I'm not saying the faces or jerks or anything like that, but that they're playing by the bad guys rules - which is what makes bad guys bad, so when the "good guys" do it, their victory is kind of muddy to me. Like I said earlier - the 6 man tag on Smackdown felt more like a Win for the Superstars over the Shield & HHH and the Shield getting their comeuppance. Whats even mroe interesting is that HHH set this all up as an "olive branch" of sorts, which is more interesting because it basically just highlights the idea that there aren't good superstars or bad superstars, just those who are "blessed" by management to be in the dominant position and those who aren't. It wasn't like the superstars all rallied together to defeat the Shield - HHH gave them this, he's the one who set it all up, taking the power from the faces and co-opting it for himself. HHH could come out and say, "You all think you're better than Randy Orton or the Shield, but when I gave you half a chance you acted JUST LIKE THEM." If you want to say that Bryan and his pals were acting heelish then you'd have to totally re-write the rules of how wrestling is booked. For example, we couldn't have a storyline where a tag team of Person A and Person B breaks up and in retaliation Person B heinously attacks Person A putting him out of action for months. In that situation Person A couldn't come back and beat the crap out of Person B as revenge. In this instance Person A would have to have Person B arrested for assault and that would be the end of the storyline as Person B goes to jail. So we can't apply real life logic to wrestling, wrestling has its own logic and to change that you'd have to change the fabric of the business. In short in the world of wrestling Bryan & co. acted as faces should, gave the heels their comeuppance and did nothing wrong whatsoever. Like I said, the 6 man tag on SD was a perfect example of faces beating up the heels AND maintaining the high ground, morally. The tag team example you gave - if Person A came back and attacked Person B, one-on-one, without using cheatery and stuff, then that'd be ok. he comes out, calls out Person B and says I'm gonna destroy you beause of XYZ - that makes sense. Revenge, reckoning, etc - that's all fine in wrestling, but when wrestlers bascially use the bad guy tactics in order to get that revenge - that's where the moral lines get too fuzzy. The CM Punk/Heyman thing, to be honest at NoC, I didn't really care for the Punk beatdown on Heyman. I never like those torture-porn-esque style revenge beatdowns. In fact, this whole Punk/Heyman storyline doesn't really play for me either, especially after NoC, but I see what you mean.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Sept 24, 2013 12:32:44 GMT -5
This is what happens when the Be A Star meme kept going unchecked. People forget the heels are suppose to get their lumps now and then. The Shield played the numbers game for over a year and few cried foul then. The roles are reversed and now they are the victims? Even with the odds supposedly against them (RVD, Kofi ,the PTP entered the match bruised up), the Shield still used the tactics that made them a dominant force. Remember these are the same people who defeated Cena, Orton, Undertaker, Kane, Bryan, Big Show, and numerous others. So they are not helpless victims. The Shield finally felt what it's like on the other side of a swarm attack. The thing that is being forgotten is Hunter sacrificing the Shield for the good of the BUSINESS. By serving the Shield on a platter to Bryan and his allies, he took heat off himself and made it seem like he being a fair and balanced boss. Exactly....I think Hunter explained his actions pretty well on SMACKDOWN, when he was chastising Vikki for putting the "Yes Brigade" in that gauntlet match against the SHIELD. HHH has seen most of the locker room walk out on him, and while he doesn't want Bryan to wear the WWE title, he doesn't want to come off as entirely being a Mr. McMahon type boss either (after all, he doesn't have the keys to the kingdom....yet). It's HHH playing himself, really....the perfect politician, the guy who can be all smiley, patting you on the back one minute, and meanwhile, stabbing you in the back in a way most wouldn't be able to catch (ala RVD on SD) the other. Does he have his personal agendas....yes, and is he pursuing them, sure, but he's doing it in such a slick way that you almost have to admire this current HHH for his cunning. Now, as for the whole "Faces being Bullies" thing.....I think the OP and the people who are defending him are too used to WCW during the NWO era, or TNA during the whole Immortal saga (same thing really), where the heels are always required to be totally dominate, while the faces flail around, never organizing into a solid force to battle the heels. For once, that happened on Monday, and I'm damn glad it did....seems a heck of a lot more realistic that the faces would finally say, "OK, enough of this," and just gang up and give the heels a taste of their own medicine. I don't think it's too difficult to understand. Turnabout is fair play.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Sept 24, 2013 12:42:37 GMT -5
This is what happens when the Be A Star meme kept going unchecked. People forget the heels are suppose to get their lumps now and then. The Shield played the numbers game for over a year and few cried foul then. The roles are reversed and now they are the victims? Even with the odds supposedly against them (RVD, Kofi ,the PTP entered the match bruised up), the Shield still used the tactics that made them a dominant force. Remember these are the same people who defeated Cena, Orton, Undertaker, Kane, Bryan, Big Show, and numerous others. So they are not helpless victims. The Shield finally felt what it's like on the other side of a swarm attack. The thing that is being forgotten is Hunter sacrificing the Shield for the good of the BUSINESS. By serving the Shield on a platter to Bryan and his allies, he took heat off himself and made it seem like he being a fair and balanced boss. If anything, if they continue with HHH using the Shield as a means to take the heat off himself and his actions, it should give them an onus to maybe walk out on Hunter when they've had enough being used as patsies, so to speak.
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Post by KobashiChop on Sept 24, 2013 13:02:49 GMT -5
The people who call stuff like this bullying really don't know what bullying is.
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Post by trollrogue on Sept 25, 2013 5:53:57 GMT -5
I just had hopes that Ryder and Gabriel's inclusion in this angle meant they were getting elevated. I guess not. Clutching at straws it may be, but I think the fact that they ARE included is sort of an elevation in itself. It's more than what Yoshi Tatsu is getting, that's for sure. No matter what, if you're in THE main event on RAW you're doing something right. Zack and Justin should be on Cloud 9 after their perpetual jobbing on Superstars/Main Event episodes.
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