mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 6:39:55 GMT -5
Justice would have been it being 3 or 2 in favor of Shield. And then the rest of the babyface roster stops the Shield from leaving after one is eliminated, and the odds are evened. They then toss two back into the ring, and Bryan and whomever proceed to kick the shit out of Rollins and Reigns straight up while Ambrose is held at bay outside, kept from interfering. That way the faces stop the Shield fair and square, they catch a beating in a just manner, and the rest of the roster is shown as a unified front in keeping gang-attacks from happening ever again. In morality tales, its custom to have the hero overcome odds. The odds should never be stacked against the villains. It's not as satisfying. It's just not done like that. It tells a better story in reverse. the police frequently outnumber criminals. At the end of a war the winning side usually has more troops than the losing side. Superheroes often form teams and while guys like the Justice League may take on entire alien armadas they also spend time fighting a single ultra-powered villain. Also the Shield running from an even odds match would be pretty out of character for them
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 10:57:09 GMT -5
Justice would have been it being 3 or 2 in favor of Shield. And then the rest of the babyface roster stops the Shield from leaving after one is eliminated, and the odds are evened. They then toss two back into the ring, and Bryan and whomever proceed to kick the shit out of Rollins and Reigns straight up while Ambrose is held at bay outside, kept from interfering. That way the faces stop the Shield fair and square, they catch a beating in a just manner, and the rest of the roster is shown as a unified front in keeping gang-attacks from happening ever again. In morality tales, its custom to have the hero overcome odds. The odds should never be stacked against the villains. It's not as satisfying. It's just not done like that. It tells a better story in reverse. the police frequently outnumber criminals. At the end of a war the winning side usually has more troops than the losing side. Superheroes often form teams and while guys like the Justice League may take on entire alien armadas they also spend time fighting a single ultra-powered villain. Also the Shield running from an even odds match would be pretty out of character for them A morality tale and real life (war/police) are very different things. The superhero analogy I can see. Though, to be fair, there's usually a fairly large power discrepency between the heroes and villains, despite the numbers game. Like the villains are so crazy, super powered that the heroes need help to stop them, so the odds are still stacked against the heroes. I'm pretty sure the Shield have run away from a fair fight. They haven't been above bailing/interfering in a match where the odds are even in the past.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 13:13:43 GMT -5
the police frequently outnumber criminals. At the end of a war the winning side usually has more troops than the losing side. Superheroes often form teams and while guys like the Justice League may take on entire alien armadas they also spend time fighting a single ultra-powered villain. Also the Shield running from an even odds match would be pretty out of character for them A morality tale and real life (war/police) are very different things. The superhero analogy I can see. Though, to be fair, there's usually a fairly large power discrepency between the heroes and villains, despite the numbers game. Like the villains are so crazy, super powered that the heroes need help to stop them, so the odds are still stacked against the heroes. I'm pretty sure the Shield have run away from a fair fight. They haven't been above bailing/interfering in a match where the odds are even in the past. On TV they've never walked away from a match. They have decided not to attack when their target was prepared for them a couple of times
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 27, 2013 14:51:17 GMT -5
Justice would have been it being 3 or 2 in favor of Shield. And then the rest of the babyface roster stops the Shield from leaving after one is eliminated, and the odds are evened. They then toss two back into the ring, and Bryan and whomever proceed to kick the shit out of Rollins and Reigns straight up while Ambrose is held at bay outside, kept from interfering. That way the faces stop the Shield fair and square, they catch a beating in a just manner, and the rest of the roster is shown as a unified front in keeping gang-attacks from happening ever again. In morality tales, its custom to have the hero overcome odds. The odds should never be stacked against the villains. It's not as satisfying. It's just not done like that. It tells a better story in reverse. the police frequently outnumber criminals. At the end of a war the winning side usually has more troops than the losing side. Superheroes often form teams and while guys like the Justice League may take on entire alien armadas they also spend time fighting a single ultra-powered villain. Also the Shield running from an even odds match would be pretty out of character for them Wrestlers are not a police and it's not real life. It's a MORALITY tale. There are rules to writing. And people seem to constantly forget this. The agreed climax HAS to be that Shield get their comeuupance. That's not in question. But the initial match itself went against the first rule of writing. The villains began with a disadvantage. The crux of all hero stories is a man or men outnumbered or at least outpowered by a foe. 300 was the Spartans vs a million guys. Braveheart was a rag-tag Scottish army vs the potential full might of the English empire. Hell, even Avengers was a group of superdudes vastly outnumbered. There hasn't been one morality tale in history wherein the heroes were in a position of initial power over their adversaries. The babyfaces aren't bullies for doing what they did. And The Shield did deserve their beating. But how WWE got there was silly. It could have been crafted in a better way that accomplished all the same goals.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 15:35:40 GMT -5
the police frequently outnumber criminals. At the end of a war the winning side usually has more troops than the losing side. Superheroes often form teams and while guys like the Justice League may take on entire alien armadas they also spend time fighting a single ultra-powered villain. Also the Shield running from an even odds match would be pretty out of character for them Wrestlers are not a police and it's not real life. It's a MORALITY tale. There are rules to writing. And people seem to constantly forget this. The agreed climax HAS to be that Shield get their comeuupance. That's not in question. But the initial match itself went against the first rule of writing. The villains began with a disadvantage. The crux of all hero stories is a man or men outnumbered or at least outpowered by a foe. 300 was the Spartans vs a million guys. Braveheart was a rag-tag Scottish army vs the potential full might of the English empire. Hell, even Avengers was a group of superdudes vastly outnumbered. There hasn't been one morality tale in history wherein the heroes were in a position of initial power over their adversaries. The babyfaces aren't bullies for doing what they did. And The Shield did deserve their beating. But how WWE got there was silly. It could have been crafted in a better way that accomplished all the same goals. WWE is a continuing story. I am not willing to just forget that the Shield has been beating down people in gang attacks all year. So for me at least there was nothing INITIAL about Monday's show. And before the Avengers went up against the Chitauri there were multiple Avengers against Loki.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 27, 2013 16:06:25 GMT -5
Wrestlers are not a police and it's not real life. It's a MORALITY tale. There are rules to writing. And people seem to constantly forget this. The agreed climax HAS to be that Shield get their comeuupance. That's not in question. But the initial match itself went against the first rule of writing. The villains began with a disadvantage. The crux of all hero stories is a man or men outnumbered or at least outpowered by a foe. 300 was the Spartans vs a million guys. Braveheart was a rag-tag Scottish army vs the potential full might of the English empire. Hell, even Avengers was a group of superdudes vastly outnumbered. There hasn't been one morality tale in history wherein the heroes were in a position of initial power over their adversaries. The babyfaces aren't bullies for doing what they did. And The Shield did deserve their beating. But how WWE got there was silly. It could have been crafted in a better way that accomplished all the same goals. WWE is a continuing story. I am not willing to just forget that the Shield has been beating down people in gang attacks all year. So for me at least there was nothing INITIAL about Monday's show. And before the Avengers went up against the Chitauri there were multiple Avengers against Loki. No, there are individual stories with beginnings and climaxes contained within the overall WWE Universe. And you're not supposed to forget about Shield beating people down. That was never the argument. I made sure to mention that. Justice however within the context of a morality tale is them being stopped from gang attacks and being thwarted straight up without their usual advantage. The larger arc is the unity that the just babyfaces have in preventing these attacks from here on in. But in writing, the heroes are supposed to take the moral high ground. You may not like it. But that's how it works. THERE ARE RULES TO WRITING. Every professor on earth will tell you this. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. I hate that I have to keep telling you this. It's like you don't possess a shred of rationality, or are somehow a robot set to permanent Asperger mode. And for the record, were every member of the Avengers fighting Loki at once? Were they pulverizing him in 6 on 1? Or did he still have an advantage over the two he was fighting? Yup. Stop arguing. You've lost.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bringer of Destruction and Maker of Doom
Posts: 16,332
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Post by Professor Chaos on Sept 27, 2013 16:44:59 GMT -5
Yes. In the end they'll all be #Heels and buried one by one by The King Of Kings, The Game, The Cerebral Assasain, The Greatest WWE Superstar of All Time Triple H.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2013 16:48:05 GMT -5
Why does everything here have to be so social justice-y and morally right all of a sudden? It's just pro wrestling.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,468
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Post by Dub H on Sept 27, 2013 17:31:37 GMT -5
Why does everything here have to be so social justice-y and morally right all of a sudden? It's just pro wrestling.
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Post by The Masked Heel WAS WRONG on Sept 27, 2013 18:16:18 GMT -5
Babyfaces should all run and cry instead of doing what they can to get payback.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 27, 2013 18:27:49 GMT -5
There are rules, but literary rules are made to be played with and even broken. That's how you get memorable stories. If these rules were all set in stone, then there'd be no point in telling stories, because every story would be the same. Sometimes, the villains are weaker and outnumbered but happen to be weaselly enough to avoid their ultimate comeuppance (in fact, that happens quite a bit in comic books). Sometimes, the narrator aren't reliable. Sometimes, the villain does lose because he pisses off way too many people and gets his comeuppance. We're not talking a medieval morality play, because even as short-sighted as WWE gets, it's still a longer-term story.
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PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,639
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Post by PKO on Sept 27, 2013 19:01:05 GMT -5
Why does everything here have to be so social justice-y and morally right all of a sudden? It's just pro wrestling. It has to be this way because of rules! RULES!!!
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 19:22:20 GMT -5
WWE is a continuing story. I am not willing to just forget that the Shield has been beating down people in gang attacks all year. So for me at least there was nothing INITIAL about Monday's show. And before the Avengers went up against the Chitauri there were multiple Avengers against Loki. No, there are individual stories with beginnings and climaxes contained within the overall WWE Universe. And you're not supposed to forget about Shield beating people down. That was never the argument. I made sure to mention that. Justice however within the context of a morality tale is them being stopped from gang attacks and being thwarted straight up without their usual advantage. The larger arc is the unity that the just babyfaces have in preventing these attacks from here on in. But in writing, the heroes are supposed to take the moral high ground. You may not like it. But that's how it works. THERE ARE RULES TO WRITING. Every professor on earth will tell you this. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. I hate that I have to keep telling you this. It's like you don't possess a shred of rationality, or are somehow a robot set to permanent Asperger mode. And for the record, were every member of the Avengers fighting Loki at once? Were they pulverizing him in 6 on 1? Or did he still have an advantage over the two he was fighting? Yup. Stop arguing. You've lost. you know you've really got to stop with the whole declaring yourself the winner of an arguement and telling people to stop arguing. Because it's not going to make me think that those complaining about this aren't full of it. I've read plenty of the comics that movies like the Avengers are based on and there's been plenty of times seven or eight or more heroes have dogpiled one guy. And I've seen movies like Predator. And frankly I think "spend too much time screwing people over and they will unite and stomp you" is actually a pretty decent moral I've also seen enough WWE matches made by heels not to rule anything out.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 27, 2013 19:58:16 GMT -5
No, there are individual stories with beginnings and climaxes contained within the overall WWE Universe. And you're not supposed to forget about Shield beating people down. That was never the argument. I made sure to mention that. Justice however within the context of a morality tale is them being stopped from gang attacks and being thwarted straight up without their usual advantage. The larger arc is the unity that the just babyfaces have in preventing these attacks from here on in. But in writing, the heroes are supposed to take the moral high ground. You may not like it. But that's how it works. THERE ARE RULES TO WRITING. Every professor on earth will tell you this. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. I hate that I have to keep telling you this. It's like you don't possess a shred of rationality, or are somehow a robot set to permanent Asperger mode. And for the record, were every member of the Avengers fighting Loki at once? Were they pulverizing him in 6 on 1? Or did he still have an advantage over the two he was fighting? Yup. Stop arguing. You've lost. you know you've really got to stop with the whole declaring yourself the winner of an arguement and telling people to stop arguing. Because it's not going to make me think that those complaining about this aren't full of it. I've read plenty of the comics that movies like the Avengers are based on and there's been plenty of times seven or eight or more heroes have dogpiled one guy. And I've seen movies like Predator. And frankly I think "spend too much time screwing people over and they will unite and stomp you" is actually a pretty decent moral I've also seen enough WWE matches made by heels not to rule anything out. I only say it to you, and you alone, because you seem to have an inability to even consider, even momentarily, that you might be wrong about something. In your entire post history, not one time have you ever conceded despite people in some cases providing mountains of proof that completely negate your stance. I think I just want, one time, to see you entertain the idea that you might be incorrect. We all are, after all. You're easily the most irrational stubborn person I've ever seen in my life --to the point where I think you're either purposely playing contrarian, or are actually clinically insane. That said, I'm glad you saw Predator. Then you'd know that the Alien with the high tech weapons, whose invisible, and who the majority of the platoon doesn't even know exist, had the complete advantage. It's one man, Arnold, that takes him down once he negates those advantages.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 20:04:37 GMT -5
you know you've really got to stop with the whole declaring yourself the winner of an arguement and telling people to stop arguing. Because it's not going to make me think that those complaining about this aren't full of it. I've read plenty of the comics that movies like the Avengers are based on and there's been plenty of times seven or eight or more heroes have dogpiled one guy. And I've seen movies like Predator. And frankly I think "spend too much time screwing people over and they will unite and stomp you" is actually a pretty decent moral I've also seen enough WWE matches made by heels not to rule anything out. I only say it to you, and you alone, because you seem to have an inability to even consider, even momentarily, that you might be wrong about something. In your entire post history, not one time have you ever conceded despite people in some cases providing mountains of proof that completely negate your stance. I think I just want, one time, to see you entertain the idea that you might be incorrect. We all are, after all. You're easily the most irrational stubborn person I've ever seen in my life --to the point where I think you're either purposely playing contrarian, or are actually clinically insane. That said, I'm glad you saw Predator. Then you'd know that the Alien with the high tech weapons, whose invisible, and who the majority of the platoon doesn't even know exist, had the complete advantage. It's one man, Arnold, that takes him down once he negates those advantages. so the smaller number can have the advantage. The smaller number on this side had a history of getting numbers on their side, had injured opponents, a guy who'd never been pinned, several moves good for one shotting opponents and authority on their side.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 27, 2013 20:12:18 GMT -5
There are rules, but literary rules are made to be played with and even broken. That's how you get memorable stories. If these rules were all set in stone, then there'd be no point in telling stories, because every story would be the same. Sometimes, the villains are weaker and outnumbered but happen to be weaselly enough to avoid their ultimate comeuppance (in fact, that happens quite a bit in comic books). Sometimes, the narrator aren't reliable. Sometimes, the villain does lose because he pisses off way too many people and gets his comeuppance. We're not talking a medieval morality play, because even as short-sighted as WWE gets, it's still a longer-term story. I love your posts. Always thought provoking, even in the cases wherein I sometimes disagree. That said, while I do agree that a story's ending can be plied and manipulated, you will find that 99% of all hero stories are structured from the position of moral high ground. Human beings identify more with a hero (or heroes) overcoming odds themselves to win. When the roles are reversed it's not as satisfying. We're just wired to want to side with an underdog. And WWE's entire booking philosophy has always been written in that classic, as you put it, medieval morality play. Austin for example fought the Corporation by himself for the most part (although others did as well, it wasn't ever with Austin as part of the group.). Hulk Hogan didn't have a larger group of babyfaces to stamp out the Heenan Family. It was basically Sting, DDP and Luger against the whole nWo. We pulled for heroes to find a way to overcome these insurmountable odds, but they still maintained a set of core, heroic ethics in doing so -- even if no one would have blamed them for fighting dirty or returning the same brutality. That's what a hero is. He's not us. He's not the guy who fights fire with fire. He's better than us. He fights with a code that is more difficult to win with, but more satisfying when he finds a way to win.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 27, 2013 20:16:35 GMT -5
I only say it to you, and you alone, because you seem to have an inability to even consider, even momentarily, that you might be wrong about something. In your entire post history, not one time have you ever conceded despite people in some cases providing mountains of proof that completely negate your stance. I think I just want, one time, to see you entertain the idea that you might be incorrect. We all are, after all. You're easily the most irrational stubborn person I've ever seen in my life --to the point where I think you're either purposely playing contrarian, or are actually clinically insane. That said, I'm glad you saw Predator. Then you'd know that the Alien with the high tech weapons, whose invisible, and who the majority of the platoon doesn't even know exist, had the complete advantage. It's one man, Arnold, that takes him down once he negates those advantages. so the smaller number can have the advantage. The smaller number on this side had a history of getting numbers on their side, had injured opponents, a guy who'd never been pinned, several moves good for one shotting opponents and authority on their side. The Shield having that advantage is supposed to conjure those angry emotions in you. You want to see them get beat. But good storytelling is giving you that same result without conflicting a hero's values or having them sink to the same exact level as the villain.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Sept 27, 2013 20:28:36 GMT -5
I don't think this one match should really be held against Bryan or his supporting allies (for too long, anyway), because as a failed plan of Triple H (It had to be a plan, right? Sow seeds of discontent, weaken the stronger guys... easy pickings), I don't think there will ever be a situation where the good guys have the massive numbers advantage for the rest of this storyline.
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wisdomwizard
King Koopa
Too Salty
Watching you.
Posts: 11,087
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Post by wisdomwizard on Sept 27, 2013 20:32:52 GMT -5
WWE is a continuing story. I am not willing to just forget that the Shield has been beating down people in gang attacks all year. So for me at least there was nothing INITIAL about Monday's show. And before the Avengers went up against the Chitauri there were multiple Avengers against Loki. No, there are individual stories with beginnings and climaxes contained within the overall WWE Universe. And you're not supposed to forget about Shield beating people down. That was never the argument. I made sure to mention that. Justice however within the context of a morality tale is them being stopped from gang attacks and being thwarted straight up without their usual advantage. The larger arc is the unity that the just babyfaces have in preventing these attacks from here on in. But in writing, the heroes are supposed to take the moral high ground. You may not like it. But that's how it works. THERE ARE RULES TO WRITING. Every professor on earth will tell you this. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. I hate that I have to keep telling you this. It's like you don't possess a shred of rationality, or are somehow a robot set to permanent Asperger mode. And for the record, were every member of the Avengers fighting Loki at once? Were they pulverizing him in 6 on 1? Or did he still have an advantage over the two he was fighting? Yup.
Stop arguing. You've lost.No actually, YOU have lost. Rather than just continue your debate in a respectful manner you decided to throw a whiny temper-tantrum that a five-year-old would say. If you didn't want to continue the argument, you could have just you agree to disagree. But no, you had to lower yourself like that. Which isn't quite even the first time you've done this. It's like I said a bit ago, kindergarten-level logic. EDIT: And I don't know Mrjl well enough to know if he has Asperger's, but I do. And quite frankly, I am very offended.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 27, 2013 20:39:47 GMT -5
so the smaller number can have the advantage. The smaller number on this side had a history of getting numbers on their side, had injured opponents, a guy who'd never been pinned, several moves good for one shotting opponents and authority on their side. The Shield having that advantage is supposed to conjure those angry emotions in you. You want to see them get beat. But good storytelling is giving you that same result without conflicting a hero's values or having them sink to the same exact level as the villain. there's plenty of heroes out there that say turnabout is fair play. As to values, faces frequently agree to Survivor Series and War Games matches. so maybe in most cases storytelling has them fall behind in the numbers game. But there's nothing in the rules that requires that. That means every time Dusty Rhodes or Sting or Hulk Hogan or the Ultimate Warrior led a team down to the ring they were hoping to be able to beat down their opponents on the opposite side of the ring with the numbers game they just didn't usually get their wish. And I'd like to add the Shield had a better shot than managers who used to have to get in the ring with faces for five minutes if their clients lost. Common stip in the 80s
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