Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:41:33 GMT -5
I defend the WWE because it's really, really, REALLY fun right now. And it wasn't always like this. Even earlier this year, when this Authority angle started I was against it. You can find posts from me on this board talking about how I have no interest in another Triple H as Big Bad storyline in 2013. Thing is though: He's changed up his character and found unique ways to do things.
Daniel Bryan, one of my favorite wrestlers, is getting recognized in the absolute highest degree for his awesome talent and it warms my heart to see his success. Guys like The Shield have been made a super important element of the show and get to be booked like a smart, capable, dangerous unit (For me, "Sierra, Hotel, India..." interrupting a promo is STILL an 'Uh oh' moment). They've even made guys I'm not that into like Big Show, Randy Orton and Goldust become really interesting to me. There's a strong, focused top angle and lots of other things that play off that angle. I appreciate that.
Is everything perfect? Nah. I don't really like what CM Punk is doing. Stephanie kind of bugs me because I feel like there will be no comeuppance for her. So I don't defend those bits.
For me, becoming an internet wrestling fan and especially part of this board has enhanced the WWE experience tremendously. Hanging out in the Raw thread is awesome because there's such a variety of opinions and everyone is really respectful of everyone's views. There have been times where there are polar opposite opinions on stuff. Like, last week I didn't like that Cole didn't mention that a title match had been interrupted on commentary and another poster pointed out that it'd be hard to fit that in while Orton was off being terrifying. We disagreed on it but discussed it and I had a fun little aside with a few posters about the way I wish commentary was. Wrestling in 2013 is a real social thing for me, talking with random dude's and ladies on the internet about segments I both like and dislike.
Honestly, I haven't been having this much fun in years. Over on another board we're currently talking about our Match of the Year listing and we've already got over twenty picks. In OCTOBER. That's crazy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:46:47 GMT -5
Because it's just your damn opinion. Prince was better than MJ and Forrest Gump sucked. You hate Forrest Gump?!?!? You just made a powerful enemy for life!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:48:35 GMT -5
How can people defend WWE? Why, by learning these fabulous MMA moves by MMA legend Bas Rutten!!!
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Oct 20, 2013 15:50:13 GMT -5
The fact that it's pretty damn good now might have something to do with it. Just a guess.
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Post by slappy on Oct 20, 2013 15:50:55 GMT -5
Prince was better than MJ Woah woah, let's not say anything we'll regret later.
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Post by JTG Fan on Oct 20, 2013 15:56:31 GMT -5
Because it's just your damn opinion. Prince was better than MJ and Forrest Gump sucked. You hate Forrest Gump?!?!? You just made a powerful enemy for life!!! There are some amusing parts (Bubba, Lt. Dan) but overall the whole 'oh this special guy was there for all these historical moments' gag is repetitive and that's pretty much what all of the movie is. If I have to hear one more person quote the box of chocolates line without a hint of irony, I'll blow my brains out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 15:58:52 GMT -5
You hate Forrest Gump?!?!? You just made a powerful enemy for life!!! There are some amusing parts (Bubba, Lt. Dan) but overall the whole 'oh this special guy was there for all these historical moments' gag is repetitive and that's pretty much what all of the movie is. If I have to hear one more person quote the box of chocolates line without a hint of irony, I'll blow my brains out. I'm going to pretend I read all of that in a bad dream
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,787
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Post by Glitch on Oct 20, 2013 16:07:34 GMT -5
I don't care about people's opinions about WWE's product, But what I will NEVER understand is how people can defend WWE's business practices. Especially those of Vince and his circle of goons and yes-men. They're the most successful wrestling company in history, and it's not remotely close. None of these other smaller wrestling companies that are apparently filled with booking geniuses can make any money at all. Even when Ring of Honor was at its best, they couldn't move the needle into relevance. Everyone on the internet or who is associated with an indie is a booking and wrestling business genius, everybody in the WWE is stupid, and yet somehow the WWE is the only company who can make any money at all, let alone revenues of hundreds of millions every year, and turning a profit almost every year even in a weak economy. Just once I want to see one of these "brilliant wrestling minds" that apparently only exist outside the WWE actually make signficant money in the wrestling industry. But would the wwe still be able to do the same if they weren't back by millions? They can get away with pushing certain guys because their audience will bitch but will still continue to watch. You can't really do that in an indy fed. When Vince bought the company from his dad, it wasn't exactly some no name indy(and it was a different time as well). He had a little bit of room already to work with, versus an indy fed today who has to fight through astronomical odds for any attention. Likewise, if millions of dollars and a tv deal fell on PWG's lap, would they still not grow? You make it sound as if all indy companies are small because they are buffoons who have no idea what they are doing.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Oct 20, 2013 16:14:57 GMT -5
Ok this thread start, first off you clearly seemed to more and more want a reaction then anything. Your question was how anybody can defend the WWE when in your opinion is horrible. You clearly answered you own question because everyone as a different opinion and view of the WWE. Some people like it, some don't. The in ring stuff isn't any worst then it ever was. because like they ALWAYS have they have the same mixer of styles.
We had Hogan not we got Cena. We had Bret Hart and HBK now we have Bryan and Punk. Ok the angles at times do suck or may not be booked the way I want to see it or others do. But that's the same deal at any era at anytime. The WWE is still drawing more money and fans then any other wrestling company in the worst. So you tell me how broken they are when on a business sense they turn profit and can expand. Unlike TNA or anybody else who can't. That why people defend the WWE because they enjoy what they see. You see these days there is NO right or wrong with the WWE product because it mainly a matter of opinions. I mean yeah people hate John Cena but I can say I'm not a big fan of him either but I do understand the reasons why he in the spot he is. The man does so much positive publicity its amazing. The make of wish and everything he does outside the ring for the WWE is crazy. He is the type of guy you want as your face of the company. Like him or not.
People all want Attitude and that fine but that will never happen because the WWE is a public traded company as they where not at the time. Which was that a good idea, IMO not really. But that how it is. But I find a lot of what Attitude was a lot of it was Overrated. Don't get me wrong there was a lot of good in it but the way make it out as the perfect times in wrestling on the other hand it wasn't. But again that's my opinion. I'm not right or wrong when it comes to it.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Oct 20, 2013 16:17:32 GMT -5
It's because they're such a deficit of exciting ideas, the 'E latch onto an overbook it as there's nothing else on the show. The whole model has been based around that for the last 11 years, where everything else on the show is considered superfluous to that 'one, big angle.'
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,787
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Post by Glitch on Oct 20, 2013 16:19:13 GMT -5
Specifically it's done like this.
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Post by molson5 on Oct 20, 2013 16:27:01 GMT -5
They're the most successful wrestling company in history, and it's not remotely close. None of these other smaller wrestling companies that are apparently filled with booking geniuses can make any money at all. Even when Ring of Honor was at its best, they couldn't move the needle into relevance. Everyone on the internet or who is associated with an indie is a booking and wrestling business genius, everybody in the WWE is stupid, and yet somehow the WWE is the only company who can make any money at all, let alone revenues of hundreds of millions every year, and turning a profit almost every year even in a weak economy. Just once I want to see one of these "brilliant wrestling minds" that apparently only exist outside the WWE actually make signficant money in the wrestling industry. But would the wwe still be able to do the same if they weren't back by millions? They can get away with pushing certain guys because their audience will bitch but will still continue to watch. You can't really do that in an indy fed. When Vince bought the company from his dad, it wasn't exactly some no name indy(and it was a different time as well). He had a little bit of room already to work with, versus an indy fed today who has to fight through astronomical odds for any attention. Likewise, if millions of dollars and a tv deal fell on PWG's lap, would they still not grow? You make it sound as if all indy companies are small because they are buffoons who have no idea what they are doing. Where did they get the millions? Wasn't it from running this "terrible" wrestling product? Many, many wrestling promotions have died off in the last 30 years. A few, like WCW, had some success and made a lot of money. That's no guarantee of being around forever. As WCW learned, it's no guarantee of being around another year or two. If you subscribe to the general cynical view, the WWE was terrible in the mid-90s, had a few good years in the late 90s, and then have been terrible ever since. Generally in the entertainment industry or business generally, a couple of good years more than a decade ago doesn't guarantee your survival forever. They're clearly doing something right. How long do we have to wait for another company to be relevant? I hear so often on this board about how stupid the WWE is, about how they miss the "obvious" booking that the indies would always get right. If the wrestling business is so easy to succeed in, if message board posters are smarter than the WWE, why can nobody make money at this? And I'm definitely not saying all indy companies are buffons, they obviously do stuff that entertains their fans, which is great. I just think in 2013, it's just about impossible to make significant money with a wrestling company, and somehow, the WWE does it year after year, and they've been the only one who has for close to 15 years now, and they deserve at least some credit for that. I think the "indy smugness" that some have, isn't really warranted (and I don't think most indy fans, or most working for indy promotions have that smugness, I think the majority of those fans just prefer that kind of product, which is great....but I see no evidence in the bottom line that the WWE business plan is terrible, that they're a bunch of bafoons, and that all the real wrestling geniuses are out in the indies - if that was the case, at SOME point there's going to be some kind of real-life market correction). Ring of Honor or whoever can have the greatest booking, most exciting matches, best character development, but that formula does not, and has not ever, equaled actual real world business success, which is what the WWE's motive is (and which they've been successful at for many years).
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Oct 20, 2013 17:18:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I wasn't at ALL talking about booking, or anything like that. I was talking about things like the way writers are treated by Stephanie and others, the way J.R. was treated by Vince and his cronies for years, the way they pretend that it's squeaky clean when they (re)built WWE on what was pretty much smut. Things like THAT.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,734
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Post by Rican on Oct 20, 2013 17:21:55 GMT -5
I recently really started watching WWE again, and I actually really enjoy it. I had basically taken a two year hiatus. I was still following what was happening and occasionally checking in or watching stuff on Youtube, but I didn't watch all of RAW every week for a long time. I think that break did some good because things seem really fresh now.
I think overall WWE has a good product. I really enjoy watching Punk, Bryan, The Shield, The Rhodes, Fandango, The Usos, Los Matadores, and a few others here and there.
I think it's easier for people to get burned out on the product because there aren't seasons like there are in sports or even other episodic TV shows. It's constant, so I think self-made breaks help a lot.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Oct 20, 2013 17:27:07 GMT -5
You underestimate the power of opinions. People can defend anything if they really want to. There are fans of pretty much everything out there that can make a pretty good argument about them too, at that. Whether it's Twilight, Nickelback, or any one of the other "massively hated" things around, there will always be a few fans out there willing to defend it. I'd be the last one to proclaim that the WWE's booking right now is superb right now, but it's not even close to the worst stuff I've seen. Like you said, at least the in-ring product is very good right now, albeit mainly because Daniel Bryan and The Shield are in the main event mix. Hey, hey, hey, it's impossible to make a 'pretty good argument' on Twilight. That's one absolute I will never concede.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 20, 2013 17:34:57 GMT -5
People are more apt to defend what they enjoy. If people enjoy WWE's product right now, they have every right to voice that opinion and go on enjoying it. If, like the OP, they do not enjoy it, they have every right to not watch it and voice their opinion stating their preference.
Neither opinion is any more valid, I think we can all agree on that basic fact.
However, if the true point is not to voice an opinion in one direction or the other, but to strong-arm someone into changing their opinion or to place them on the defensive for having said opinion, then we're crossing lines.
Personally, I enjoy many of the performers within WWE, and will gladly tune in to watch them do what they do. If an angle is not my taste, or I find myself taken out of that suspension of disbelief into the area of "well, damn I already know where this is going, and have no desire to watch it play out", then I will turn the channel, as I do frequently.
It doesn't mean I hate the product. I may walk out of a movie because it's predictable to the point that I'm not having any fun with it, but it doesn't mean I am going to rail against the production company or director for "forcing" me to watch the product. I gave it a chance, then I spoke with my wallet. If I am in the minority, so what? It doesn't invalidate my opinion.
Conversely, if I go to a movie, sit and watch it and think it's the greatest thing I've ever seen, it matters not if I'm the only one in the theater. I got my money's worth. So when I tell people that I loved the movie and thought it was vastly underrated, my opinion is valid. So is theirs if they say it was awful.
I do not, and never have, agreed with everything WWE does. I doubt any of us have been that much of a homer for the company. I may love a peformer's work, but if they turn in a bad performance, I will say as much. If an angle just sits badly with me, I'll say it. Joe Universe sitting next to me might see the angle as pure gold and be planning to make it rain at the merch table.
We can both be right, since it's all personal taste.
Main event storyline, for example. Some love it, some hate it, some are in the "wait and see" place. Personally, I love D-Bry as a performer, and I will gladly pay to watch him wrestle. However, if I look at it and say "The main players are ones I am familiar with, and when they have played this type of character in storylines, here is how the storylines have resolved themselves" then it makes me less likely to spend money.
I can watch two movies where the villainous character somehow wins in the end and be fine with it. However, when the same actor, playing the same role, wins as the villain in both movies, and the plot line follows the same pattern in each, as a movie goer I will be less likely to shell out the cash. If someone who is a fan of the actor sees it coming out and says "Oh it's just like that other movie he was in, I loved that movie" then they will be more likely to spend money.
Again, neither is wrong.
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Post by willywonka666 on Oct 20, 2013 17:37:47 GMT -5
That's why I watch the old stuff. I haven't watched Raw religiously in 7 and 1/2 years. I sure as hell won't defend it either. I think my time has passed as far as enjoying it.
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theryno665
Grimlock
wants a title underneath the stars
Kinda Homeless
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Post by theryno665 on Oct 20, 2013 17:40:09 GMT -5
I don't get the point of this thread. Watch it if you want to or don't, if that's what you want.
Personally speaking, I used to watch Raw weekly until like 2002. Sometimes I have periods where I'll get into it for a few months (for me, it was the ECW Revival then the Summer of Punk) but I end up falling out of it. Why? I think, especially now, it's kinda a chore to watch a 3 hour Raw for what might be a good segment or two when I could just pop in a DVD of something else whenever I want. I'll watch the important PPVs with friends but that's about it.
But do I hate WWE? Far from it. In fact, if anything I should like it more than ever with guys like Punk and Bryan on top and storylines being fairly interesting at the moment. I just kinda find it hard to take the time out and sit down and watch it. But other people do.
Other people do lots of things: Listen to Miley Cyrus, smoke meth, fart in pillows to save it for later. As long as they're not hurting anybody, just let them do what they want.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 17:40:28 GMT -5
People use the "Just change the channel" argument a lot, but I mean...people suffering through bad times on a show they don't like in the hopes it will get better or because they're attached to the characters anyway isn't unique to us. How many fans suffered through bad seasons of Dexter or sub-par seasons of Scrubs because of the heights of the show? Heck, I love Community and I didn't really like the last season but it's part of my routine now so I watch it anyway. I feel like people who just say "change the channel" think that people who don't like the show are far more invested in disliking it than the are, it doesn't take much to post about your displeasure on the internet after all.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
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Post by Lancers on Oct 20, 2013 17:41:30 GMT -5
My college thesis was a dissertation defending the musical merits of early 2000s nu-metal mainstay Adema.
As you might expect, I didn't pass medical school.
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