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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 18:57:06 GMT -5
Eh, I like them. They're a fun tag team, their theme is a nonstop party, and Torito is all sorts of fun.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Oct 31, 2013 19:01:50 GMT -5
It's weird.
On one hand, I actually find their matches to be pretty good. Primo, Epico and Mascarita Dorada are tremendous talents and that's pretty much the only redeeming quality of the group.
However, I've brought this up in other threads, and I listened to a podcast on racist Halloween costumes and heard of the term cultural appropriation, and I feel that's what WWE is doing with Los Matadores. They are taking something from the Spanish/Mexican culture and throwing it on two Puerto Ricans. I will say I learned about these differences from Konnan, and there's the obvious deal of not all hispanic people being the same thing, which I don't think WWE realizes. Basically, they see this Puerto Rican tag team and are like, they're hispanic, so is bullfighting, so therefore, they're bullfighters. It goes back to when Alberto Del Rio was trying to get over as this baby face and they were writing this garbage for him, like that skit where Del Rio and Ricardo mocked Uncle Zeb and Jack Swagger by parodying them. You could tell that was written by people who have no idea about any hispanic culture, so they just do this typical wrestling parody skit and make jokes about tacos.
So I think that's the biggest issue with Los Matadores. It's not their fault. They're trying their best, and I feel they're at least doing a decent job with the in ring. They have been given an albatross of a gimmick which really shows how inept WWE is when it comes to booking for something other then white people.
I go back to Konnan and some people may not like his opinions or think he's racist or whatever, and his homophobic stuff isn't really good on his show. But I feel that when it comes to booking for a culture, he understands that if he doesn't get the culture or he's not apart of it, he'll find somebody who is. This is why we had Lord Tensai this year, who is dressed as this emperor. Instead of bringing him in as this monster who honed his craft in Japan and just have him steamroll over everyone, they gave him this elaborate costume. Or with the Divas, and how the heels and babyfaces generally have the same gimmick of "happy go lucky" and "mean bitch". Plus all they talk about is looks and boys. Or you have Jerry Lawler slut shaming AJ. I will say that due to WWE's huge handicap with women, that AJ being such a big star is really a credit to how talented she is, that she could get over in an environment that really holds down on air female talent. Because of that, I'd say she has more talent and charisma then a good chunk of the roster, based on the fact she's a woman in WWE and she's overcome that handicap.
But yeah, it is really a shame. One more thing that Konnan brought up which was interesting. He said that people of different races and ethnic backgrounds won't cheer somebody simply because they're of the same ethnic background. But, if he's presented as "the guy", then they'll really get behind him, which I think is why WWE did that back in the day with Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales. And I think that if they are really established stars, it will be easier for them to get over with different people, as with Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio, who had good reputations coming in from WCW and just built upon that. It's not secret that the hispanic audience was huge when Eddie was on top or close to it.
And I guess it's a shame that guys like Primo and Epico can't get over in today's WWE. I posted a comment in the gifs thread about Carlito and how jacked he was when he debuted. I kinda feel if Primo and Epico were as jacked as Carlito (and like, he looked bigger then John Cena), they probably would have gotten the big push. But that's a whole different issue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 19:21:41 GMT -5
Gimmicks like that make me wish the WWE just went ahead and did a kiddies division where those silly characters are only seen on weekend mornings. If I want to see a midget in a bull costume gore a racist old man in the ass, I'd go to a bar in West Texas. I thought I had my "post of the day" gif on that account but apparently not, instead of finding a new one, here's the Sin Cara point of approval.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Oct 31, 2013 19:23:39 GMT -5
Carlito had charisma in spades. Primo y Epico don't have enough to get a serious singles or tag team push. And people focus on Puerto Ricans playing Mexcian matadores but forget that a number of wrestlers played similar roles. Yokozuna was a Samoan playing a Japanese sumo wrestler. Muhammad Hussan was Italian. So was Chief Jay Strongbow. Ivan Koloff was born in Canada. Santino is a Canadian citizen not Italian. You would be surprised at the number of ethnic wrestlers who weren't the real deal.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Oct 31, 2013 19:32:35 GMT -5
Primo and Epico were fantastic, they just never had feuds or much mic time at all. I liked that they didn't have a silly gimmick, that they were just Puerto Rican cousins who grew up together that could have exciting matches on any given night. Vince doesn't get subtlety, so they never really had much of a chance to do anything. They did keep the tag belts for awhile, but the tag division was an embarrassment while they were champions, so it was almost by default. I think the last thing of note they did was lose to the New Age Outlaws. I'm willing to give El Primos a chance, but so far all these 3MB matches are killing them where they stand. The bull is sort of amusing, and it might be the only chance they have at getting this gimmick to get over with a younger demo. It's better than Rosa, at least. they've also faced the Real Americans
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Oct 31, 2013 19:39:05 GMT -5
It's weird. And I guess it's a shame that guys like Primo and Epico can't get over in today's WWE. I posted a comment in the gifs thread about Carlito and how jacked he was when he debuted. I kinda feel if Primo and Epico were as jacked as Carlito (and like, he looked bigger then John Cena), they probably would have gotten the big push. But that's a whole different issue. what? Carlito was flat out scrawny. His debut was against Cena and he certainly didn't look bigger than him
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 31, 2013 19:41:22 GMT -5
It's weird. And I guess it's a shame that guys like Primo and Epico can't get over in today's WWE. I posted a comment in the gifs thread about Carlito and how jacked he was when he debuted. I kinda feel if Primo and Epico were as jacked as Carlito (and like, he looked bigger then John Cena), they probably would have gotten the big push. But that's a whole different issue. what? Carlito was flat out scrawny. His debut was against Cena and he certainly didn't look bigger than him And Cena was a big dude too. Never in a million years would I call Carlito "scrawny" in his debut match against Cena. He only slimmed down as time went by and he, presumably, got off the gas.
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Post by Brickstone Kid on Oct 31, 2013 19:42:33 GMT -5
They're absolutely awful, and I say this as one of the people who was really excited for their debut following their hype videos. As I've said before, they have four major problems holding them back:
1. The Theme Music - GET RID OF THIS S***! I refuse to believe there is any human on the planet (living or dead) who could enjoy this song. Sadly, the song they used in their vignettes was awesome, but for some reason they refuse to use it.
2. Cut down the Entrance - Sort of goes along with the theme being so awful, but the whole prolonged entrance with the bull running up and down the ramp is just retarded (the smoke effect with the bull on the titantron is cool, though). The Usos have the same problem with their dumb Samoan chant. Cut these entrances down!
3. New outfits - For the love of God, can they put a little effort into the costumes? I could put together a better Matador outfit just by going down to the Halloween store. Doesn't the WWE employ any competent wardrobe personnel? Where's that black lady from Total Divas?
4. New finisher - They already tried this once but their new finisher is just as bad as the old one. I'm all for tag team finishes, but lets see some f***ing creativity. Having an exotic setup (that stupid "spin" thing they do before they lift their opponent) is NOT creative; it's just a bunch of fluff that tries (unsuccessfully) to mask the fact that the move itself is lame and has hardly any impact.
If they take my advice on the above, they might have a shot. But I'm sure they'll just continue to be abysmal.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Oct 31, 2013 19:47:32 GMT -5
It's weird. And I guess it's a shame that guys like Primo and Epico can't get over in today's WWE. I posted a comment in the gifs thread about Carlito and how jacked he was when he debuted. I kinda feel if Primo and Epico were as jacked as Carlito (and like, he looked bigger then John Cena), they probably would have gotten the big push. But that's a whole different issue. what? Carlito was flat out scrawny. His debut was against Cena and he certainly didn't look bigger than him officialfan.proboards.com/thread/481731/pics-gifs-thread-pirate-bryan?page=72&scrollTo=10087388Carlito looks like he ate steroids for breakfast and shit out pure testosterone.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 31, 2013 19:49:08 GMT -5
They're not terrible, but it's not a gimmick that's built for anything long-term really.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Oct 31, 2013 19:51:41 GMT -5
what? Carlito was flat out scrawny. His debut was against Cena and he certainly didn't look bigger than him And Cena was a big dude too. Never in a million years would I call Carlito "scrawny" in his debut match against Cena. He only slimmed down as time went by and he, presumably, got off the gas. I meant he as in Carlito did not look bigger than him as in Cena. Sorry, Carlito just doesn't look big to me. Like I said, I just went back and checked out his debut match, to me he looks scrawny
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 19:53:55 GMT -5
Carlito wasn't as big as Cena, but he was big (early on)
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Oct 31, 2013 19:55:36 GMT -5
Finisher is fine. Most finishers are a soft unimpressive slam anyway. hatehatehate the theme music. As has been mentioned, their vignette theme was miles better. Their entrance will be cut down in some time. All lengthy entrances are.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Oct 31, 2013 19:56:13 GMT -5
El Torito is the shit.
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543Y2J
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Post by 543Y2J on Oct 31, 2013 19:57:16 GMT -5
El Torito is f***ing amazing, but yeah...I think I agree with you on everything else. Gimmicks are only as interesting as you play them, and I don't feel that Primo and Epico are fully embracing them. Fandango as an example Curtis has fully invested in, developed character and seems to have a damn good time playing him. I wasn't sure at the beginning with FDG, but the more week by week you could see the character taking over him, the more I enjoyed watching him (while his ring work is/was improving over the same amount of time). I don't get that same feeling with Los Matadores.
I would even like a bit more of Vince's insane mid to late 80's/early 90's gimmicks and characters on the midcard, when it works (see above) they are incredibly fun and can round out a card well when you have hard hitting/serious storylines going otherwise, but only if the one's playing them are fully invested and seem to have a good time playing them.
If it does all fall apart I just beg them to keep Torito.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Oct 31, 2013 19:58:44 GMT -5
I don't really have any problems with Primco not being Mexican and doing a seem-ling Mexican gimmick. There have been plenty example in the past where the WWE has done this and so do television productions.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 31, 2013 20:02:09 GMT -5
It was a lame and dated gimmick when Tito did it twenty years ago.
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Oct 31, 2013 20:05:15 GMT -5
The gimmick runs the risk of going the way of Brodus, it was fun at first but the gimmick was given no depth or development and the sparkle was quickly dulled. The only time Primo was ever really entertaining was when he was a pervert on NXT, he just needs to do that, be a perverted matador. Epico..... has never really impressed me, I could go without.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Oct 31, 2013 20:06:35 GMT -5
El Torito heel turn at the RR after he eliminates Cena.
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Paco
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Post by Paco on Oct 31, 2013 20:13:00 GMT -5
They exist solely to give Mascarita Dorada purpose.
If El Torito is over, then it's working. Primo & Epico are probably just lucky to still be employed (sad to say as I am a fan of them just not as Los Matadores...they wrestle differently).
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