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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 10, 2013 0:04:47 GMT -5
I truly hope that someday Cena gets the majority face pops he deserves for bringing it like this in big promos as well as (most) big matches. I don't know if that will ever happen, because let's not forget what got Seattle in that mood to begin with. That of course, being the farce that was Cena vs. Rock being Match of the Year. As long as he has to be the face of that, he ain't getting that majority cheer.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Dec 10, 2013 0:06:20 GMT -5
He gets far more praise than grief around here. People may hate the way he's booked, but he's not underrated by any means. Given the hate he gets from other fans elsewhere for daring to commit such unforgivable acts like breathing air, we're still an exception to the norm. People say he sounds too much like a politican at times, but if that promo was any indication, we'd probably be looking at President Cena if he were one. Of course, he'd probably wind up telling the wrong country to Come Get Some and then we'd all be dead a week after his inaguration, but still. Are you kidding? It's Cena!If he were America's president, America would outlast the planet.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Dec 10, 2013 0:07:07 GMT -5
It was good. Very good. I'm just numb to him at this point. I get that it was the smart thing to do to acknowledge the crowd and roll with it. But, he comes across like such a kiss-ass that I can't really respect his character, he's not someone I want to get behind and cheer for. As was said, he comes off like a politician, in this case even moreso than usual. He did a good job handling the crowd, but the problem is that the crowd is ALWAYS like that for him. Tonight he got them back into it and got through the segment, but in the long run it's not going to change anything. I'm so tired of him having to try and turn crowds. It's this constant battle that I'm tired of witnessing, it's not interesting at all at this point. To me, it wasn't about turning them to like Cena. It was about turning them for this match. The crowd crapped all over both Trips and Orton, who did just about everything they could to ignore what was going on, besides Trips' generic taunt, which basically blew up in his face. And I disagree about Cena being a politician here, because outside of also ignoring what was happening, there's nothing else he could have done. He didn't really even make it about him, as much as he made it about the match. He gave examples of people who "worked hard" and compared it to Orton. And if that was an audible...that was a damn good audible. He wasn't selling himself, he was selling the match. That still doesn't make me want to watch the PPV, but it at least amazes me that Cena could at least turn the corner on a segment, which may have otherwise continued to turn sour had he not done what he did.
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Post by Bear Skin Rug on Dec 10, 2013 0:10:20 GMT -5
Sorry for channeling my inner Del Rio and getting aggressive with you guys. Cena is a great performer and that should be obvious to everyone; it's much better that people here make sure to sing his praises than dismiss everything he does just because of who he is.
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Sparkybob
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Post by Sparkybob on Dec 10, 2013 0:14:48 GMT -5
He creates a white rapper gimmick that was suppose to be a joke and got himself mega over as a heel even when losing big matches. He earned his way to the top as much as somebody can in THIS BUZNESS. Bull f***ing shit. The guy has worked incredibly, incredibly hard, but "as much as somebody can"? He became a teflon WWE Champion five years into his wrestling career. Some guys have been handed more, but plenty have worked harder and been handed less. At a time when Batista was headlining the A show, they decided to market Cena as an invincible champion and hand him the keys to the company. A lot of people have been given much shittier gimmicks. He works hard, but saying that he's earned everything he has is just buying into his t-shirt slogans. How can you get to the top organically then? John Cena by all accounts was chosen by the fans to be their next top babyface. Have you seen his white rapper gimmick? That stuff is cringe-worthy but he got the fans to love him even thought he was a certified jobber to the stars. Don't believe me? He got buried by Undertaker at vengance 2003, in an angle he built by himself with Taker not being on screen and Taker squashed him. Then he didn't get booked for SS 2003! and then job clean again to Angle at the next PPV at No Mercy yet he was getting more over! They turned him because the fans were chanting for him even when he was jobbing clean and his slow rise to the top was all fan driven. I'll also ask how you "earn" your rise to the top in a predetermined sport. Did D-Bryan earn his spot because he wrestled a bunch on the indies? Did the Rock "earn" his rise to the top? Cena got an awful gimmick super over without the WWE handpicking him for that spot. It seems you wanted to punish Cena for not wrestling enough so instead of pushing him as a star, you will make him wrestle in the mid card for 5 more years so he can really earn that main event status.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 0:18:15 GMT -5
It was good. Very good. I'm just numb to him at this point. I get that it was the smart thing to do to acknowledge the crowd and roll with it. But, he comes across like such a kiss-ass that I can't really respect his character, he's not someone I want to get behind and cheer for. As was said, he comes off like a politician, in this case even moreso than usual. He did a good job handling the crowd, but the problem is that the crowd is ALWAYS like that for him. Tonight he got them back into it and got through the segment, but in the long run it's not going to change anything. I'm so tired of him having to try and turn crowds. It's this constant battle that I'm tired of witnessing, it's not interesting at all at this point. To me, it wasn't about turning them to like Cena. It was about turning them for this match. The crowd crapped all over both Trips and Orton, who did just about everything they could to ignore what was going on, besides Trips' generic taunt, which basically blew up in his face. And I disagree about Cena being a politician here, because outside of also ignoring what was happening, there's nothing else he could have done. He didn't really even make it about him, as much as he made it about the match. He gave examples of people who "worked hard" and compared it to Orton. And if that was an audible...that was a damn good audible. He wasn't selling himself, he was selling the match. That still doesn't make me want to watch the PPV, but it at least amazes me that Cena could at least turn the corner on a segment, which may have otherwise continued to turn sour had he not done what he did. The thing is, a big reason why fans are crapping on the match is because John Cena is involved. There's a large segment of the crowd that is sick of him, and it is not going to change. I think he turned them for the segment, but the basic idea of Orton vs. Cena for the Undisputed title is still not an appealing one, and his promo didn't do anything to change that. He did the smart thing in acknowledging the guy who's name was getting chanted over the segment, but the fact that it was happening is the problem. I give the guy credit, but as I said, I'm just over it. The problem with Cena has never been quality, so quality work isn't going to make things better.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Dec 10, 2013 0:35:26 GMT -5
The thing is, a big reason why fans are crapping on the match is because John Cena is involved. There's a large segment of the crowd that is sick of him, and it is not going to change. I think he turned them for the segment, but the basic idea of Orton vs. Cena for the Undisputed title is still not an appealing one, and his promo didn't do anything to change that. He did the smart thing in acknowledging the guy who's name was getting chanted over the segment, but the fact that it was happening is the problem. I give the guy credit, but as I said, I'm just over it. The problem with Cena has never been quality, so quality work isn't going to make things better. I won't deny that people are never going to universally like Cena. I'm pretty indecisive myself simply because him still being an active wrestle may be a large part of why several others aren't pushed as hard. However, I can't fault the guy for existing. I think moreso is the fact that the fans are crapping all over this match and the competitors in general. You would think WWE would have learned their lesson back in 2009 that people weren't that into Cena/Orton. The fact that they're bringing it back now, and not only hyping it on a lesser PPV, but also pretty much guaranteeing that we will once again get a match that ends with a screwy finish. In that case, I'm completely with the fans. The only thing I'm giving credit to here is Cena's ingenuity in the hope of saving a sinking angle. He did his part. And he did it well. WWE and everyone else involved in this angle completely and totally failed hard. I think Cena is the only guy who saw the problem they faced and did something about it. I can't fault him for that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 0:48:50 GMT -5
The thing is, a big reason why fans are crapping on the match is because John Cena is involved. There's a large segment of the crowd that is sick of him, and it is not going to change. I think he turned them for the segment, but the basic idea of Orton vs. Cena for the Undisputed title is still not an appealing one, and his promo didn't do anything to change that. He did the smart thing in acknowledging the guy who's name was getting chanted over the segment, but the fact that it was happening is the problem. I give the guy credit, but as I said, I'm just over it. The problem with Cena has never been quality, so quality work isn't going to make things better. I won't deny that people are never going to universally like Cena. I'm pretty indecisive myself simply because him still being an active wrestle may be a large part of why several others aren't pushed as hard. However, I can't fault the guy for existing. I think moreso is the fact that the fans are crapping all over this match and the competitors in general. You would think WWE would have learned their lesson back in 2009 that people weren't that into Cena/Orton. The fact that they're bringing it back now, and not only hyping it on a lesser PPV, but also pretty much guaranteeing that we will once again get a match that ends with a screwy finish. In that case, I'm completely with the fans. The only thing I'm giving credit to here is Cena's ingenuity in the hope of saving a sinking angle. He did his part. And he did it well. WWE and everyone else involved in this angle completely and totally failed hard. I think Cena is the only guy who saw the problem they faced and did something about it. I can't fault him for that. I think we're on the same page here. At least the same chapter. Cena's trying. He's just put in a terrible position all the time. He has to be that politcian that I don't like, becaase he's supposed to be the "good guy" and he gets booed all the time. I'd respect his character a hell of a lot more if he said "f*** you people, I don't care if you boo me." That would be so much more relateable than him trying to figure out a way every single week to milk a few cheers out of a crowd that doesn't like him by using more unanimously popular stars or cancer, or putting on that smile and going "huh, looks like there's a lotta energy in here tonight" or what have you. At the end of the day, Daniel Bryan was taken out of the title picture when he was crazy over and only going upward, in favor of a Cena/Orton program, and the fans have revolted against it. Cena acknowledging it was pretty cool, if I'm talking about John Cena, the man. I'm trying to watch this from a character standpoint, though. And that acknowledgement was warm and fuzzy, but it still doesn't change the fact that he was removed from the title picture. Tonight was just putting a bandage on it to get through the night, it didn't really fix anything.
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Post by knightrider01 on Dec 10, 2013 0:56:24 GMT -5
You know I haven't always been a Cena fan, but for how he handles himself I will always have respect. Any one else and I think it would have broke them. Cena on the other hand just tries to feed on it and try to make the best out of a bad situation. I think the moment I realized this was One Night Stand 06.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Dec 10, 2013 1:03:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't go that far. I think it'd be more accurate to say that WWE's search to find another superstar that hits all of the checkmarks Cena eventually did (in ring ability, promo skill, look, marketability, crowd response volume, extreme commitment to the company, will always stay out of trouble) is why others aren't pushed as hard as he is.
And speaking as someone who thinks that Bryan and Punk meet almost all of those credentials, I think it's safe to assume they probably don't match the level of "commitment" WWE looks for, or at least have with John. Is that healthy for Cena, or any top star? Perhaps not, and fans are of course hungry for a change now, but I at least understand where WWE is coming from (though I still suspect most of Cena's overwork and returning early from injuries is his call as opposed to the company's, but that's another topic).
I guess I'm saying that if WWE has to keep going back to a well, even if they shouldn't be doing that anyway, he's the best well out there.
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Crimson
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Post by Crimson on Dec 10, 2013 1:15:33 GMT -5
He creates a white rapper gimmick that was suppose to be a joke and got himself mega over as a heel even when losing big matches. He earned his way to the top as much as somebody can in THIS BUZNESS. Bull f***ing shit. The guy has worked incredibly, incredibly hard, but "as much as somebody can"? He became a teflon WWE Champion five years into his wrestling career. Some guys have been handed more, but plenty have worked harder and been handed less. At a time when Batista was headlining the A show, they decided to market Cena as an invincible champion and hand him the keys to the company. A lot of people have been given much shittier gimmicks. He works hard, but saying that he's earned everything he has is just buying into his t-shirt slogans. So did CM Punk and Daniel Bryan.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
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Post by mizerable on Dec 10, 2013 1:19:50 GMT -5
And speaking as someone who thinks that Bryan and Punk meet almost all of those credentials, I think it's safe to assume they probably don't match the level of "commitment" WWE looks for, or at least have with John. But no one does. It's really hard for me to come up with anyone else on the roster who can come close. As much as we joke about Cena always winning or playing smiling babyface, I think that anyone else in the same situation would have buckled and insisted on turning heel. Then again, the idea of playing good guy by almost being the sacrificial lamb is pretty cunning in itself. That doesn't mean I have to like it. But again, Cena is a special case. And in a way, I think that MAY be part of WWE's problem. They've been able to at least ride this wave of hostility for nearly a decade without ever having his character shun the people who boo him (outside of Hershey, PA...but that hurt him in the longrun) or ever giving an inch in terms of his integrity. I guess WWE sees this as a victory, and maybe they have a point there. We might see it as "same ol' shit" and perhaps it is. But there IS a part of me that does get engaged in what Cena gives and he's definitely a part of what made Edge's, RVD's, Punk's, and Bryan's title wins so special. But as I said, this kind of "hard way" booking they've had with Cena has probably hurt them elsewhere. I don't think that Orton nor Del Rio HAS lived up to their expectations they were given. I don't think they handled Nexus, Christian's title win, the summer of Punk, or Bryan's push in the best manner. A lot of it comes down to WWE's hardheaded booking of doing what they feel is best for the audience instead of giving the audience what we want. Cena turning heel? Okay, WWE is maybe right. I think it would backfire with Cena getting cheered. It's especially redundant now with them missing about two thousand better chances to go that route. But everything else? It's almost as if they're saying "we were right about this, so we must be right about everything else" which the audience has continually been defiant of, to which again falls on WWE's deaf ears.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Dec 10, 2013 1:20:14 GMT -5
I've said my favorite matches involving Cena is when he loses. Not because I like seeing him lose, but because I find that he seems more motivated in those matches (RVD at ONS, Punk at MitB, Bryan at SS off the top of my head) to make that moment seem meaningful. His promo work is no different. When he's motivated, he's on another level. Only Punk can be compared on the mic for his ability to convey the right tone and utilize the crowd to convey his message effortlessly. I know he gets a lot of grief around here, but he's where he's at for a very good reason and deservedly so. My criticisms regarding Cena has always been with the company books him. He's got the it factor and anyone who doesn't see it, I'm sorry, is just wrong. He is this generation's Hogan. It's weird because I've noticed the same thing.. The more motivated Cena seems on the mic, the more likely he is trying his best to put that person over, not only there...but in the match. And that's why I don't think Cena is the politician some people make him out to be. I truly think he goes out there and does everything he can to help those who really earned the rub; Ziggler, Punk, Bryan. The problem is, he can only do so much. Blame Vince McMahon's shortsightedness on falling back on going back to tradition. People hate when Cena wins, and sometimes the hate is justified. But I don't doubt that if left up to Cena, he'd probably go out there and give the fans what they want if he could. Hell, I'd almost prefer if he was the rightful heir to the WWE throne instead of a couple of people who always do anything they can to get the last word or win. Yeah, it's so consistent it's almost become a part of his character now, like he is so used to winning he legitimately gets happy when someone finally beats him. I wish he cut a borderline insane promo on how he's superman and he has no true challengers left, so he does whatever he can to push people to his level because the throne he sits at gets lonely sometimes.
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DZ: WF Legacy
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Post by DZ: WF Legacy on Dec 10, 2013 1:23:22 GMT -5
I quite liked Cena tonight, because he was saying a lot of real shit. Just watched the promo again, and I really like that he turned to crowd in his favor.
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BigBadZ
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Post by BigBadZ on Dec 10, 2013 1:57:40 GMT -5
People say he sounds too much like a politican at times, but if that promo was any indication, we'd probably be looking at President Cena if he were one. Of course, he'd probably wind up telling the wrong country to Come Get Some and then we'd all be dead a week after his inaguration, but still. Cena would tell all terrorists and their sympathizers "they can't see America" in his southern black preacher voice. This would set off all those countries to aim their nuclear weapons at us and threaten to blow up the United States. Is this a potentially bad idea?? Of course, but this is John Cena and the odds of us surviving are microscopic. Therefore, I'll happily stand with the guy in jorts and a t-shirt that says "THE PREZ IS HERE" with an arrow pointing to the seal of the President of the United States of America.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2013 1:59:19 GMT -5
He definitely did a great job using Bryan to pander to the crowd.
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Post by Germansuplex on Dec 10, 2013 2:14:00 GMT -5
Cena: "It's funny...I couldn't help but notice you said the word "work"".
*continues to work the audience and gets the cheapest pop ever by using Bryan*
And the funniest thing to me is how the oh-so-smarky-we're-too-cool-for-WWE crowd ate it up like the little marks they are.
Edit: His promo also made as little sense as the week before, up to kissing Triple H's ass. It was a perfect heel promo.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 10, 2013 2:52:05 GMT -5
Also, as if nothing has been 'handed' to Cena? Unlike Orton, Cena earned his spot by impressing the brass. Orton was picked as the golden child from day one while Cena was on his way to getting the axe and then left to rot in a comedy jobber gimmick that he somehow managed to "rise above". Cena might have things handed to him NOW, but he EARNED that status.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 10, 2013 3:03:47 GMT -5
Also, as if nothing has been 'handed' to Cena? You do realize this isn't real, right? Like, in the storyline we have now, Orton is champion only because Triple H and Stephanie so will it. And then he tied it back to Evolution, where right out of the gate he was vetted for greatness. It doesn't matter what real life this, he was selling a match and selling a story. In kayfabe, John Cena has genuinely worked for every title he has been given.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 10, 2013 3:46:47 GMT -5
The only reason it was a "good" promo, is because he was allowed go beyond the usual bland and generic catchphrases and insults to use real-life issues that Orton has had. If Orton was allowed to retort in kind and had said "Cena, it's a little rich to accuse me of being favoured by management when no one is a bigger corporate puppet than you", then Orton's promo would have been considered good too.
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