That Dolph Ziggler segment.

[trollrogue]

Dec 19, 2017 22:50:16 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Dec 19, 2017 22:42:16 GMT -5 Shai said:

Yeah let's be honest at one time Ziggler was the most over guy around. He was my favorite bar none until Seth showed up.

The guy had one run on top, I'm not counting his feud with Edge because he lost every match then, against Del Rio, but unluckily Jack Swagger concussed Dolph, his standing was never the same with the company.

Survivor Series should've been a huge boost for him but for mysterious reasons they never went with him.

The problem is that he turned into a whiner both his character and in real life, his twitter feed became a pity party, he also was a bitch in interviews. One time even Mick Foley and Austin criticized him on the Stone Cold podcast, that whining about Cena was not the best thing he should do career wise.

The guy just believes that he's better than he really is.

I was almost got by Ziggler with that promo. IF HE MENTIONED SURVIVOR SERIES-- and incorporated how he beat "The Authority" when even Daniel Bryan and John Cena couldn't-- how even Daniel Bryan to this day is still struggling to beat The Authority (thus incorporating main event level storylines) and he's literally done it all in this business-- he would've had me completely on his side for the first time in all of this SRS HEEL malarky. But he stopped short. For whatever reason, it seems like a storyline Dolph wanted to do personality and he's been given lattitude to do what he wants, I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't pulled the trigger on Survivor Series, at his most over point in his career. THAT would make all of this worth it-- if somehow he can continue his booking from that point and if all of this is leading up to that I can still hold hope for this waste of time (thus far) of a storyline.

[nate5054]

Dec 20, 2017 13:37:58 GMT -5 sunnytaker said:

the real important thing here is that VACANT HAS WON ANOTHER TITLE! (maybe)

Vacant is more entertaining. And a better draw.

[cjb01: Limited Edition Item!]

Dec 20, 2017 19:24:42 GMT -5 kingbookermark said:

Best Promo of 2017. Who did a better job than Dolph in 2017? I'm not joking. Show me!

... Were you watching the same promo as everyone else dude?

[BrodietheSlayer]

Dec 20, 2017 17:00:40 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

I'll never understand this, but there's certain characters that people just become marks about. That's not meant to be an insult, but I don't know what else to call it when people hate a specific guy as a result of a scripted promo they know perfectly well he didn't write.

Like, I agree people, it's a stupid character and a dumb storyline. But people are so, so motivated to blame him personally and it's like... it's bewildering.

It's not "being unable to make lemonade out of lemons" to be given a whiny character and promo and to then perform it whiny. That's just called doing your job.

Yeah, at times like this, I can see why the WWE arrogantly trudges on with certain pushes, even through the fan backlash. They know that despite what we like to think, we're still very much marks that can be swayed to support or turn on certain people, just by creating certain perceptions of those people. It works most of the time, and Dolph Ziggler is a perfect example of that. Here was a person that 2-3 years ago was beloved by most of the people on here, and yet WWE knew that if they booked him as a whiny loser long enough, that even Dolph's most vocal supporters would turn on him, and here we are. It's sad that wins and losses matter so much in an obviously fake contest (made even more fake by the fact that we're constantly reminded that it's fake. Take the ending of this last RAW for example), but it's true, and as I've said many times before, it's very much the reason we're all regarded as nothing more than marks by WWE/many in the wrestling business....because we act like it time and time again.

[schma]

Dec 21, 2017 4:23:03 GMT -5 BrodietheSlayer said:

Dec 20, 2017 17:00:40 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

I'll never understand this, but there's certain characters that people just become marks about. That's not meant to be an insult, but I don't know what else to call it when people hate a specific guy as a result of a scripted promo they know perfectly well he didn't write.

Like, I agree people, it's a stupid character and a dumb storyline. But people are so, so motivated to blame him personally and it's like... it's bewildering.

It's not "being unable to make lemonade out of lemons" to be given a whiny character and promo and to then perform it whiny. That's just called doing your job.

Yeah, at times like this, I can see why the WWE arrogantly trudges on with certain pushes, even through the fan backlash. They know that despite what we like to think, we're still very much marks that can be swayed to support or turn on certain people, just by creating certain perceptions of those people. It works most of the time, and Dolph Ziggler is a perfect example of that. Here was a person that 2-3 years ago was beloved by most of the people on here, and yet WWE knew that if they booked him as a whiny loser long enough, that even Dolph's most vocal supporters would turn on him, and here we are. It's sad that wins and losses matter so much in an obviously fake contest (made even more fake by the fact that we're constantly reminded that it's fake. Take the ending of this last RAW for example), but it's true, and as I've said many times before, it's very much the reason we're all regarded as nothing more than marks by WWE/many in the wrestling business....because we act like it time and time again.

To be fair, taking 3 years to give up on a guy isn't like changing overnight.  This took a concerted effort to get a lot of us to give up on him.  That said who looks at someone who's that over and says, hey, let's sabotage him for the next few years.  Plus his booking made zero sense with someone who is one of the most decorated stars on the roster whining like he never got opportunities or success. 

Anyways, I hardly think scoffing, what a 'bunch of marks' at people who gave up after 3 years and several hundred shows of terrible booking is fair.

[The Ichi]

People didn't sour on Dolph just for being whiny. Punk was whiny, but he was able to get fans behind him by being as good as he claimed to be (YMMV). Dolph combines whinyness WITH not being anything special besides being athletic. Compare him from 2010 to now. Can you honestly give me any major evolvement he's done to his character?

"It's WWE's fault!". No, it's partly their fault. Generally when someone is mega talented and doesn't give up, they do...SOMETHING. Anything. Dolph just brings nothing to the table besides being pretty good in the ring (not exactly a rare trait these days).

He's the problem and deserves the flak he gets.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Plenty of people got their heat killed off and had their pushes messed up with. Cesaro really had something going and the company derailed him,m then had the owner go onto Steve Austin's show and claim he hadn't connected with the crowd to begin with. Cesaro also never let that stop him and went on to get over in two different tag teams, with his first partner retiring partway through due to spinal injuries and his current partner possibly going the same route. In spite of having his hopes squashed, dude still works his ass off to put on great matches and doesn't slack off when he's on the mic. He's someone who's made the best of where he's at in spite of the company killing his heat, and he's not let it stop him from working himself back up from the bottom twice. Dolph's been cutting the same promo the same way for years, and his matches aren't really anything spectacular. No he's not given great material, but he also doesn't really do anything special.

I feel like this argument comes up every time a Dolph thread goes longer than a page, where people have to explain there's more to why they dislike Dolph than just being "worked" by WWE booking him poorly, and that we can't tell his bad material from his bad execution of said material. And every time it's at least a little insulting to peoples' intelligence.

[Feargus McReddit]

Dec 21, 2017 4:47:09 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

People didn't sour on Dolph just for being whiny. Punk was whiny, but he was able to get fans behind him by being as good as he claimed to be (YMMV). Dolph combines whinyness WITH not being anything special besides being athletic. Compare him from 2010 to now. Can you honestly give me any major evolvement he's done to his character?

"It's WWE's fault!". No, it's partly their fault. Generally when someone is mega talented and doesn't give up, they do...SOMETHING. Anything. Dolph just brings nothing to the table besides being pretty good in the ring (not exactly a rare trait these days).

He's the problem and deserves the flak he gets.

Here’s the key problem with what you said: Everything goes through Vince. Everything. Every potential gimmick change, every storyline idea, even your hairstyle and facial hair (Ask Rusev).

If this was a super indie or ROH or somewhere like that and he was stagnant with no change then sure, I’d mostly put the blame on him. The problem is that WWE has a tonne of control over people’s characters, their perception, how they’re used etc. They write scripts for people for crying out loud, then we moan at them for not memorising scripts word for word when that isn’t something they’ve been used to for most of their careers.

Do you think people suddenly decided Bray Wyatt was a nobody now? No, they BOOKED him to lose all the time and booked him to look like a goober. So people think he’s a goober now. Same with Bayley, same with Mike Kanellis, same with pretty much 95% of the roster in 2017. The roster’s full of non-stars because WWE doesn’t want those people to be stars at all.

Now, do I think Dolph should have fought more and tried to get something interesting and better for himself? Sure, but nobody here knows if he’s actually done that and if he has, it probably wasn’t a success. But then again, they’re STILL booking him against guys regardless and still being in storylines so in his mind, why should he bother? Whether we like it or not, if WWE didn’t see SOMETHING in him, he’d not be on TV never mind recently be offered a new contract to sign. And Dolph probably reckons he wouldn’t last long in the indies which is why he’d sign.

I’m not saying he’s blameless. I’m saying that from everything we know of WWE in 2017, it’s bizarre to think anything else but WWE having most of the blame.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2017 5:08:05 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Dec 21, 2017 4:47:09 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

People didn't sour on Dolph just for being whiny. Punk was whiny, but he was able to get fans behind him by being as good as he claimed to be (YMMV). Dolph combines whinyness WITH not being anything special besides being athletic. Compare him from 2010 to now. Can you honestly give me any major evolvement he's done to his character?

"It's WWE's fault!". No, it's partly their fault. Generally when someone is mega talented and doesn't give up, they do...SOMETHING. Anything. Dolph just brings nothing to the table besides being pretty good in the ring (not exactly a rare trait these days).

He's the problem and deserves the flak he gets.

Here’s the key problem with what you said: Everything goes through Vince. Everything. Every potential gimmick change, every storyline idea, even your hairstyle and facial hair (Ask Rusev).

If this was a super indie or ROH or somewhere like that and he was stagnant with no change then sure, I’d mostly put the blame on him. The problem is that WWE has a tonne of control over people’s characters, their perception, how they’re used etc. They write scripts for people for crying out loud, then we moan at them for not memorising scripts word for word when that isn’t something they’ve been used to for most of their careers.

Do you think people suddenly decided Bray Wyatt was a nobody now? No, they BOOKED him to lose all the time and booked him to look like a goober. So people think he’s a goober now. Same with Bayley, same with Mike Kanellis, same with pretty much 95% of the roster in 2017. The roster’s full of non-stars because WWE doesn’t want those people to be stars at all.

Now, do I think Dolph should have fought more and tried to get something interesting and better for himself? Sure, but nobody here knows if he’s actually done that and if he has, it probably wasn’t a success. But then again, they’re STILL booking him against guys regardless and still being in storylines so in his mind, why should he bother? Whether we like it or not, if WWE didn’t see SOMETHING in him, he’d not be on TV never mind recently be offered a new contract to sign. And Dolph probably reckons he wouldn’t last long in the indies which is why he’d sign.

I’m not saying he’s blameless. I’m saying that from everything we know of WWE in 2017, it’s bizarre to think anything else but WWE having most of the blame.

You're right but lots of other guys go through this too and they keep trying, keep their heads down and work their nuts off in the hope of grabbing the next opportunity when Vince's mood next changes with the wind.

Miz got treated this way post world title run, and floundered for a while. Other than his PR and mic skills, to the outside observer he has far less upside than Ziggler but he worked and worked and worked and tried different things, embraced all the different things they gave him, teams with R-Truth, face turns that booked him as a heel etc, he kept trying until he found something that got momentum and is back on top of the world again.

Dolph hasn't done any of that.

[Feargus McReddit]

Dec 21, 2017 5:32:16 GMT -5 @returnofthestryker said:

Dec 21, 2017 5:08:05 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Here’s the key problem with what you said: Everything goes through Vince. Everything. Every potential gimmick change, every storyline idea, even your hairstyle and facial hair (Ask Rusev).

If this was a super indie or ROH or somewhere like that and he was stagnant with no change then sure, I’d mostly put the blame on him. The problem is that WWE has a tonne of control over people’s characters, their perception, how they’re used etc. They write scripts for people for crying out loud, then we moan at them for not memorising scripts word for word when that isn’t something they’ve been used to for most of their careers.

Do you think people suddenly decided Bray Wyatt was a nobody now? No, they BOOKED him to lose all the time and booked him to look like a goober. So people think he’s a goober now. Same with Bayley, same with Mike Kanellis, same with pretty much 95% of the roster in 2017. The roster’s full of non-stars because WWE doesn’t want those people to be stars at all.

Now, do I think Dolph should have fought more and tried to get something interesting and better for himself? Sure, but nobody here knows if he’s actually done that and if he has, it probably wasn’t a success. But then again, they’re STILL booking him against guys regardless and still being in storylines so in his mind, why should he bother? Whether we like it or not, if WWE didn’t see SOMETHING in him, he’d not be on TV never mind recently be offered a new contract to sign. And Dolph probably reckons he wouldn’t last long in the indies which is why he’d sign.

I’m not saying he’s blameless. I’m saying that from everything we know of WWE in 2017, it’s bizarre to think anything else but WWE having most of the blame.

You're right but lots of other guys go through this too and they keep trying, keep their heads down and work their nuts off in the hope of grabbing the next opportunity when Vince's mood next changes with the wind.

Miz got treated this way post world title run, and floundered for a while. Other than his PR and mic skills, to the outside observer he has far less upside than Ziggler but he worked and worked and worked and tried different things, embraced all the different things they gave him, teams with R-Truth, face turns that booked him as a heel etc, he kept trying until he found something that got momentum and is back on top of the world again.

Dolph hasn't done any of that.

On the other hand, it’s not like he’s not on TV being only on house shows to get squashed, he’s (for reasons that nobody knows outside of creative) still on TV, still somewhat treated with credibility, doing the same stuff he’s done before and heck, they literally just gave him the US belt and doing this wacky storyline with him and it’s going to at least have people talking about it for a while until the (inevitably lacklustre) payoff.

Do I think he should be more motivated and do the stuff he’s said? Sure. The problem is they’re still doing stuff with him anyway, whether we like it or not, so why should he improve in his mind? Why is he on TV more than the people who are actually trying to do different things?

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2017 5:40:31 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Dec 21, 2017 5:32:16 GMT -5 @returnofthestryker said:

You're right but lots of other guys go through this too and they keep trying, keep their heads down and work their nuts off in the hope of grabbing the next opportunity when Vince's mood next changes with the wind.

Miz got treated this way post world title run, and floundered for a while. Other than his PR and mic skills, to the outside observer he has far less upside than Ziggler but he worked and worked and worked and tried different things, embraced all the different things they gave him, teams with R-Truth, face turns that booked him as a heel etc, he kept trying until he found something that got momentum and is back on top of the world again.

Dolph hasn't done any of that.

On the other hand, it’s not like he’s not on TV being only on house shows to get squashed, he’s (for reasons that nobody knows outside of creative) still on TV, still somewhat treated with credibility, doing the same stuff he’s done before and heck, they literally just gave him the US belt and doing this wacky storyline with him and it’s going to at least have people talking about it for a while until the (inevitably lacklustre) payoff.

Do I think he should be more motivated and do the stuff he’s said? Sure. The problem is they’re still doing stuff with him anyway, whether we like it or not, so why should he improve in his mind? Why is he on TV more than the people who are actually trying to do different things?

That would totally be the case if he didn't whine and moan about it, whether gimmick or not. Either work harder to change it or be happy about where you are. At the moment he wants to have his cake and eat it.

[The Ichi]

Dec 21, 2017 5:08:05 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Dec 21, 2017 4:47:09 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

People didn't sour on Dolph just for being whiny. Punk was whiny, but he was able to get fans behind him by being as good as he claimed to be (YMMV). Dolph combines whinyness WITH not being anything special besides being athletic. Compare him from 2010 to now. Can you honestly give me any major evolvement he's done to his character?

"It's WWE's fault!". No, it's partly their fault. Generally when someone is mega talented and doesn't give up, they do...SOMETHING. Anything. Dolph just brings nothing to the table besides being pretty good in the ring (not exactly a rare trait these days).

He's the problem and deserves the flak he gets.

Here’s the key problem with what you said: Everything goes through Vince. Everything. Every potential gimmick change, every storyline idea, even your hairstyle and facial hair (Ask Rusev).

If this was a super indie or ROH or somewhere like that and he was stagnant with no change then sure, I’d mostly put the blame on him. The problem is that WWE has a tonne of control over people’s characters, their perception, how they’re used etc. They write scripts for people for crying out loud, then we moan at them for not memorising scripts word for word when that isn’t something they’ve been used to for most of their careers.

Do you think people suddenly decided Bray Wyatt was a nobody now? No, they BOOKED him to lose all the time and booked him to look like a goober. So people think he’s a goober now. Same with Bayley, same with Mike Kanellis, same with pretty much 95% of the roster in 2017. The roster’s full of non-stars because WWE doesn’t want those people to be stars at all.

Now, do I think Dolph should have fought more and tried to get something interesting and better for himself? Sure, but nobody here knows if he’s actually done that and if he has, it probably wasn’t a success. But then again, they’re STILL booking him against guys regardless and still being in storylines so in his mind, why should he bother? Whether we like it or not, if WWE didn’t see SOMETHING in him, he’d not be on TV never mind recently be offered a new contract to sign. And Dolph probably reckons he wouldn’t last long in the indies which is why he’d sign.

I’m not saying he’s blameless. I’m saying that from everything we know of WWE in 2017, it’s bizarre to think anything else but WWE having most of the blame.

WWE are run by a tone-deaf, out of touch old fart. It's why I stopped watching. Dolph though literally hasn't evolved in almost ten years. He started as a cocky heel, then he'd be either a cocky heel whining about his spot, or the same thing but as a face. Compare him to two other guys that have been in the company for around the same time - Miz and Kofi. Kofi was even staler than Dolph, but then New Day happened. And I don't even have to explain how well Miz has done with his character.

Not even Vince has these guys on a leash all the time. If Dolph had something new to offer, we'd have seen it by now. It would have come out naturally eventually.

[Feargus McReddit]

Dec 21, 2017 6:00:59 GMT -5 @returnofthestryker said:

Dec 21, 2017 5:40:31 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

On the other hand, it’s not like he’s not on TV being only on house shows to get squashed, he’s (for reasons that nobody knows outside of creative) still on TV, still somewhat treated with credibility, doing the same stuff he’s done before and heck, they literally just gave him the US belt and doing this wacky storyline with him and it’s going to at least have people talking about it for a while until the (inevitably lacklustre) payoff.

Do I think he should be more motivated and do the stuff he’s said? Sure. The problem is they’re still doing stuff with him anyway, whether we like it or not, so why should he improve in his mind? Why is he on TV more than the people who are actually trying to do different things?

That would totally be the case if he didn't whine and moan about it, whether gimmick or not. Either work harder to change it or be happy about where you are. At the moment he wants to have his cake and eat it.

Sure, but if WWE had THAT much of a problem with it, he wouldn’t be on TV, wouldn’t do interviews and wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the press.

[Deleted]

Maybe Dolph's new gimmick is that he is stagnant?

[Feargus McReddit]

Dec 21, 2017 6:05:19 GMT -5 @axiv said:

Maybe Dolph's new gimmick is that he is stagnant?

“Tune in to Smackdown to watch a man who we have on TV even though people think he’s stale” isn’t exactly the best way to sell a show but I guess I heard worse.

[The Ichi]

f***, even Matt bloody Hardy struck gold eventually. Maybe Dolph should invent a character and post videos on his Twitter or whatever. He might be told to scrap it immediately, but fans might see it and nag WWE for it until they give in.

[Dub H]

Dec 20, 2017 20:16:43 GMT -5 OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 said:

Dec 20, 2017 19:07:57 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Like that is fine "he is a whiny bitch" sure.

But then people start to nitpick and revise everything. it got to the point of ridiculous.

People were saying Miz carried him throught their feud when Miz title run was SHIT until Ziggler stepped up.

He was icnresdibly over at moments this very year.

He is liked backstage.

Yet people try to insult him and make him like the worst human being at every opportunity,it got really silly.

I'm sorry, I disagree with you.

Miz's ic run picked up after he cut that promo on Bryan during Talking Smack, Ziggler didn't step up on anything during that feud with Miz, he suffered humiliation after humiliation.

What moments was he over this year or last year? I remember him bragging that he was the best in the company and then losing every single time.

Y

This si what i'm talking about.Did you SEE hsi reaction after he beat Miz and his promos,even his matches with the f***ing spirit squad?

Crowd was hot for him.

When he was savage beating up Apoll and Kalisto,people cheered for him.

He completely stepped up in the Miz feud and got a emotional victory that people loved,so WWE had to go and make it meaningless.

You can't just pretend it wasn't over.

[Dub H]

Dec 21, 2017 6:10:26 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

f***, even Matt bloody Hardy struck gold eventually. Maybe Dolph should invent a character and post videos on his Twitter or whatever. He might be told to scrap it immediately, but fans might see it and nag WWE for it until they give in.

Ziggler has hit gold in the past,and had it removed from him.Same wasy Hardy had his broken gimmick taken away,nobody gave a shit about him then.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2017 6:03:43 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Dec 21, 2017 6:00:59 GMT -5 @returnofthestryker said:

That would totally be the case if he didn't whine and moan about it, whether gimmick or not. Either work harder to change it or be happy about where you are. At the moment he wants to have his cake and eat it.

Sure, but if WWE had THAT much of a problem with it, he wouldn’t be on TV, wouldn’t do interviews and wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the press.

I don't think I made my point very well sorry. WWE clearly doesn't have an issue with it, but he does.

He's unhappy with how he's used right? Well he can do one of two things. Try harder and try different things and maybe catch fire again. Or he can keep doing the same thing, in which case he's obviously not that unhappy and should stop whining because it's killing public goodwill in the places he was once seen as a real undersung hero.

That's what I mean by wanting to have his cake and eat it. He wants to complain about his position but doesn't do anything to change it.

WWE not caring about him having these complaints should light a fire under him to be honest, because it shows how little things have changed. Instead he's happy to sit there and talk a lot without doing anything.

[The Ichi]

Dec 21, 2017 6:16:05 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Dec 21, 2017 6:10:26 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

f***, even Matt bloody Hardy struck gold eventually. Maybe Dolph should invent a character and post videos on his Twitter or whatever. He might be told to scrap it immediately, but fans might see it and nag WWE for it until they give in.

Ziggler has hit gold in the past,and had it removed from him.Same wasy Hardy had his broken gimmick taken away,nobody gave a shit about him then.

What did he do that was fresh and exciting?