Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 21, 2017 8:12:17 GMT -5
That would totally be the case if he didn't whine and moan about it, whether gimmick or not. Either work harder to change it or be happy about where you are. At the moment he wants to have his cake and eat it. Sure, but if WWE had THAT much of a problem with it, he wouldn’t be on TV, wouldn’t do interviews and wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the press. Which implies that maybe Dolph deserves a little bit more blame than you originally thought. He's constantly bitching about his spot the way Ryder used to, even though WWE throws him out there regardless. If Dolph really wanted to put in the effort to do anything different, he would have by now. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 21, 2017 8:16:07 GMT -5
Sure, but if WWE had THAT much of a problem with it, he wouldn’t be on TV, wouldn’t do interviews and wouldn’t be allowed to speak with the press. Which implies that maybe Dolph deserves a little bit more blame than you originally thought. He's constantly bitching about his spot the way Ryder used to, even though WWE throws him out there regardless. If Dolph really wanted to put in the effort to do anything I different, he would have by now. I wasn’t even saying he shouldn’t take any blame but if this was a big issue for WWE, he’d be off TV. People who have taken bigger opportunities were taken off TV in quicker time for much less. This whole thing is a bizarre push and pull when it feels like the answer is simpler: Take him off TV. The same BS was going on with Carlito for so long, the only difference being they didn’t want to piss off his Dad if he was off TV. |
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 21, 2017 11:30:58 GMT -5
The guy had one run on top, I'm not counting his feud with Edge because he lost every match then, against Del Rio, but unluckily Jack Swagger concussed Dolph, his standing was never the same with the company. Survivor Series should've been a huge boost for him but for mysterious reasons they never went with him. The problem is that he turned into a whiner both his character and in real life, his twitter feed became a pity party, he also was a bitch in interviews. One time even Mick Foley and Austin criticized him on the Stone Cold podcast, that whining about Cena was not the best thing he should do career wise. The guy just believes that he's better than he really is. I was almost got by Ziggler with that promo. IF HE MENTIONED SURVIVOR SERIES-- and incorporated how he beat "The Authority" when even Daniel Bryan and John Cena couldn't-- how even Daniel Bryan to this day is still struggling to beat The Authority (thus incorporating main event level storylines) and he's literally done it all in this business-- he would've had me completely on his side for the first time in all of this SRS HEEL malarky. But he stopped short. For whatever reason, it seems like a storyline Dolph wanted to do personality and he's been given lattitude to do what he wants, I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't pulled the trigger on Survivor Series, at his most over point in his career. THAT would make all of this worth it-- if somehow he can continue his booking from that point and if all of this is leading up to that I can still hold hope for this waste of time (thus far) of a storyline. When wrestlers are cornered against the wall and need to give the promo of their life they reach down and either deliver or not. Dolph didn't deliver, he didn't talked about Survivor Series, he just whined and moaned. He lacked anger. Austin had anger in the 3:16 promo. People seem to forget that McMahon told his inner circle that Steve Austin would never be a main eventer because of his Texan accent and that he didn't want to see Austin ever cut a promo. Bryan was told in real life that his opponent for wrestlemania 30 was gonna be f***ing Sheamus, instead of whining he cut the promo of his life and got in the main event. He didn't bitched that he was the best he asked the fans for their help. Punk was only meant to be Cena's raw feud, but he had enough and didn't whined, he told the truth and insulted management. He became a true star after that. Ziggler had an opportunity but failed to deliver a main event promo to vent his frustrations and be sincere about them. He failed he has phoned it in for years now. |
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 21, 2017 13:05:34 GMT -5
Maybe Dolph's new gimmick is that he is stagnant? “Tune in to Smackdown to watch a man who we have on TV even though people think he’s stale” isn’t exactly the best way to sell a show but I guess I heard worse. Remind me who's planned for the Mania main event this year? |
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,938
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 21, 2017 13:15:14 GMT -5
“Tune in to Smackdown to watch a man who we have on TV even though people think he’s stale” isn’t exactly the best way to sell a show but I guess I heard worse. Remind me who's planned for the Mania main event this year? MY CLIENT! THE BEEEEEEEEEEEAST! BUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHH-RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWK! LESNARRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! |
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Post by Crow Dust on Dec 21, 2017 13:26:34 GMT -5
Los Undrawables
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 21, 2017 13:31:54 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I feel bad for this cat now more than anything.
I don't care who you are, nobody deserves this horrendous character. Like I said, this is a, honest-to-god, all-time terrible heel act. As in, the kind of character you give someone when you want to kill their career.
I'm not gonna pretend Ziggler is my favorite in the world or anything but he's not a BAD performer. He's got his flaws like any performer. Unfortunately for him, time and time again, his flaws have been highlighted and focused on.
Please, save this man, haha. He doesn't deserve this.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Dec 21, 2017 13:49:42 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I feel bad for this cat now more than anything. I don't care who you are, nobody deserves this horrendous character. Like I said, this is a, honest-to-god, all-time terrible heel act. As in, the kind of character you give someone when you want to kill their career. I'm not gonna pretend Ziggler is my favorite in the world or anything but he's not a BAD performer. He's got his flaws like any performer. Unfortunately for him, time and time again, his flaws have been highlighted and focused on. Please, save this man, haha. He doesn't deserve this. He needs to quit. I know he talked about it on E&Cs podcast, but his stock has severely gone down. Go somewhere else. Rebuild your credibility. Or just Let the stink wear off. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 21, 2017 14:17:19 GMT -5
I'm really confused about everyone saying Ziggler's character doesn't change. It changes all the time. He used to do the entrance thing. He was a ladies man. Now he's ditching a title. Those are all new things. They just all suck. But again, he didn't choose any of that.
And, they fit a character who thinks he's unappreciated. But that's GOOD, because he is the came character. There should be some kind of consistency.
And (this is most important) he loses all the time. I honestly can't understand people not admitting they're marks about this guy when they quote the big awesome Dean Ambrose comeback, "Yeah, but you always lose your matches."
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 21, 2017 14:23:21 GMT -5
I'm really confused about everyone saying Ziggler's character doesn't change. It changes all the time. He used to do the entrance thing. He was a ladies man. Now he's ditching a title. Those are all new things. They just all suck. But again, he didn't choose any of that. And, they fit a character who thinks he's unappreciated. But that's GOOD, because he is the came character. There should be some kind of consistency. And (this is most important) he loses all the time. I honestly can't understand people not admitting they're marks about this guy when they quote the big awesome Dean Ambrose comeback, "Yeah, but you always lose your matches." I'm a mark for this great business. |
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Dec 21, 2017 17:18:24 GMT -5
Yeah, at times like this, I can see why the WWE arrogantly trudges on with certain pushes, even through the fan backlash. They know that despite what we like to think, we're still very much marks that can be swayed to support or turn on certain people, just by creating certain perceptions of those people. It works most of the time, and Dolph Ziggler is a perfect example of that. Here was a person that 2-3 years ago was beloved by most of the people on here, and yet WWE knew that if they booked him as a whiny loser long enough, that even Dolph's most vocal supporters would turn on him, and here we are. It's sad that wins and losses matter so much in an obviously fake contest (made even more fake by the fact that we're constantly reminded that it's fake. Take the ending of this last RAW for example), but it's true, and as I've said many times before, it's very much the reason we're all regarded as nothing more than marks by WWE/many in the wrestling business....because we act like it time and time again. To be fair, taking 3 years to give up on a guy isn't like changing overnight. This took a concerted effort to get a lot of us to give up on him. That said who looks at someone who's that over and says, hey, let's sabotage him for the next few years. Plus his booking made zero sense with someone who is one of the most decorated stars on the roster whining like he never got opportunities or success. Anyways, I hardly think scoffing, what a 'bunch of marks' at people who gave up after 3 years and several hundred shows of terrible booking is fair. It is, because people need to understand that wins and losses aren't decided by anything more than a group of people in a room deciding who wins and who loses. That's it. The things we go gaga over on here are kind of irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. If Vince and the office likes you and decides that you're going to be portrayed as a winner, then you are. If not, well, look at Dolph Ziggler. They decided that he was going to be portrayed as a whiny loser that can never win "The Big One," and lo and behold, guess what he's perceived as now. The fact that the fans were turned against the guy so effectively based on nothing more than the office deciding that it would be so is the reason that the "M Word" is thrown around, because fans shouldn't be so easily manipulated by a competition that they know (or should know) by now is completely fictional. Wins and losses don't count. Hell, this year we've seen a career long jobber instantly turned into a world champion with a run that would make many "talented wrestlers'" runs look like flashes in the pan. That right there should say it all. Heck, the fact that Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, and Deputy Dewey from SCREAM are all former World Champions should have said it all years ago, and yet people still try to act like this is some sort of real competition. It isn't. |
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 21, 2017 17:24:54 GMT -5
To be fair, taking 3 years to give up on a guy isn't like changing overnight. This took a concerted effort to get a lot of us to give up on him. That said who looks at someone who's that over and says, hey, let's sabotage him for the next few years. Plus his booking made zero sense with someone who is one of the most decorated stars on the roster whining like he never got opportunities or success. Anyways, I hardly think scoffing, what a 'bunch of marks' at people who gave up after 3 years and several hundred shows of terrible booking is fair. It is, because people need to understand that wins and losses aren't decided by anything more than a group of people in a room deciding who wins and who loses. That's it. The things we go gaga over on here are kind of irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. If Vince and the office likes you and decides that you're going to be portrayed as a winner, then you are. If not, well, look at Dolph Ziggler. They decided that he was going to be portrayed as a whiny loser that can never win "The Big One," and lo and behold, guess what he's perceived as now. The fact that the fans were turned against the guy so effectively based on nothing more than the office deciding that it would be so is the reason that the "M Word" is thrown around, because fans shouldn't be so easily manipulated by a competition that they know (or should know) by now is completely fictional. Wins and losses don't count. Hell, this year we've seen a career long jobber instantly turned into a world champion with a run that would make many "talented wrestlers'" runs look like flashes in the pan. That right there should say it all. Heck, the fact that Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, and Deputy Dewey from SCREAM are all former World Champions should have said it all years ago, and yet people still try to act like this is some sort of real competition. It isn't. Vince and Road Dogg didn't book Dolph's stand-up "comedy" to be rancid jenkem. |
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Dec 21, 2017 17:34:55 GMT -5
It is, because people need to understand that wins and losses aren't decided by anything more than a group of people in a room deciding who wins and who loses. That's it. The things we go gaga over on here are kind of irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. If Vince and the office likes you and decides that you're going to be portrayed as a winner, then you are. If not, well, look at Dolph Ziggler. They decided that he was going to be portrayed as a whiny loser that can never win "The Big One," and lo and behold, guess what he's perceived as now. The fact that the fans were turned against the guy so effectively based on nothing more than the office deciding that it would be so is the reason that the "M Word" is thrown around, because fans shouldn't be so easily manipulated by a competition that they know (or should know) by now is completely fictional. Wins and losses don't count. Hell, this year we've seen a career long jobber instantly turned into a world champion with a run that would make many "talented wrestlers'" runs look like flashes in the pan. That right there should say it all. Heck, the fact that Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, and Deputy Dewey from SCREAM are all former World Champions should have said it all years ago, and yet people still try to act like this is some sort of real competition. It isn't. Vince and Road Dogg didn't book Dolph's stand-up "comedy" to be rancid jenkem. So he's a shitty stand up. There are a lot of shitty stand up comics out there. Still no reason to hate someone with the fiery passion many on here hate the dude with. It's just silly. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 3:33:43 GMT -5
The main takeaway I'm getting from this thread is apparently you can't ever have a problem with anything without it being the company intending you to feel that way.
Like, look. I recognize Dolph is talented - I've been a fan of him for years. I recognize this problem isn't entirely on him booking this shit. But he's still had a ton of boring-as-hell matches, he's still a complete dead-end of a character, he's still had dozens of segments this year of just him wasting your f***ing time with no payoff in sight, and he still can't cut a promo to save his life and yet keeps getting 15 minute bitchfests.
It doesn't make me want to see him lose. It doesn't make me want to see him get redemption. It makes me want him to get the hell off my TV because his obnoxious screaming of every single word gives me a splitting headache.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 4:56:49 GMT -5
Apparently Mojo's gonna get some sort of push due to how great his random Twitter promo was. Honestly, if Mojo gets pushed because of something like that then most of Ziggler's issues I'm not going to say "well it's all on the company" because it's like I've said repeatedly: this guy gets more chances than anyone at his level. If Mojo can get pushed off some random promo then Ziggler needs to head to social media, start campaigning, whatever. At the end of the day this guy's not doing what others have done when they were being overlooked...and yet this man STILL won the US Title and tossed it, he's on a higher level than the belt? You mean to tell me this man with a boring character and crappy promos is above the US Title and people are saying he deserves more? Yoooooooooooooooooooooooo, nah son. NAH. You have guys out there with no belts killing it better than Ziggler and yet this dude is the one who can say "f*** a title, yall don-", I mean, what? Enough is enough.
Ziggler has been damaged by the company but with that said this guy's done damage to himself. I'm done blaming it on the company. It's on him right now especially given the company gave him a damn belt and yet he's still boring, still not promoting himself like others and etc. I'm done with dude. People need to stop giving this guy passes because the company's f***ed up. Yeah they screwed up his push but not only have they screwed up others, you have other dudes back then digging themselves out of the hole while Ziggler's on podcasts whining and shit still.
Dude is like the ex-girlfriend who was dumped. Instead of improving and working on his future dude's out there still whining and shit about something that happened years ago. Nobody wants someone like that and that includes us fans.
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Post by Aboutreika18 on Dec 22, 2017 5:48:09 GMT -5
I honestly have absolutely no idea what the hell the point of it is. He's a heel who comes out and bitches and moans about how he's not there to entertain you and really gives you a splitting headache do it, then he bitches and moans about how no one takes him seriously, then 90% of the time he loses. When he loses, whatever, you beat this pathetic has-been no one cares about, when he wins, you lost to the doofus. It's not entertaining, it's not good for heat, it doesn't build him up to lose to someone later, it doesn't do anything to build up a face coming after him. It's just a headache-inducing waste of time. Holy Moly, I just realized. Dolph Ziggler is the wrestling equivalent of the Milan Football Club right now. Except AC Milan have a long and prestigous history in the past, actually not even that long ago. The Milan comparison would be more like Undertaker bitching and whining like Ziggler. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 24, 2017 3:01:19 GMT -5
To be fair, taking 3 years to give up on a guy isn't like changing overnight. This took a concerted effort to get a lot of us to give up on him. That said who looks at someone who's that over and says, hey, let's sabotage him for the next few years. Plus his booking made zero sense with someone who is one of the most decorated stars on the roster whining like he never got opportunities or success. Anyways, I hardly think scoffing, what a 'bunch of marks' at people who gave up after 3 years and several hundred shows of terrible booking is fair. It is, because people need to understand that wins and losses aren't decided by anything more than a group of people in a room deciding who wins and who loses. That's it. The things we go gaga over on here are kind of irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. If Vince and the office likes you and decides that you're going to be portrayed as a winner, then you are. If not, well, look at Dolph Ziggler. They decided that he was going to be portrayed as a whiny loser that can never win "The Big One," and lo and behold, guess what he's perceived as now. The fact that the fans were turned against the guy so effectively based on nothing more than the office deciding that it would be so is the reason that the "M Word" is thrown around, because fans shouldn't be so easily manipulated by a competition that they know (or should know) by now is completely fictional. Wins and losses don't count. Hell, this year we've seen a career long jobber instantly turned into a world champion with a run that would make many "talented wrestlers'" runs look like flashes in the pan. That right there should say it all. Heck, the fact that Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, and Deputy Dewey from SCREAM are all former World Champions should have said it all years ago, and yet people still try to act like this is some sort of real competition. It isn't. Sorry for the late reply to this but I have been meaning to say something to this for a while and haven’t gotten around to it. I feel like you have a point but honestly, this stuff isn’t that different from how other fictional universes work. Let’s take Dragon Ball as a franchise in general, for example. Sure, Dragon Ball in general reached western shores later on but that was a show that gave investment, character growth and development to various human characters that people loved like Krillen, Bulma, Yamcha etc along with the main protagonist Goku. Whether they were fierce fighters or cocky blowhards, there felt like people you could want to see where they go and develop. When Dragonball Z came along and the wider universe opened up, those characters were shoved to the wayside for people who could kick their ass in a minute and even with minor bits of development here and there, they never really recovered from it. Krillen became the “strongest human” which might as well be a non-prize, Bulma became an anime wife, Yamcha was the joke of a joke etc. Sure, not everyone was going to get a push or Development compared to the Saiyins but the problem people had was that their creator just forgot about them and what they could do. Super’s done quite a bit to remedy this in some ways and not so much in others but there are people the community and fanbase really like almost as much as the powerhouse draws the show relies on. Wrestling’s a bit different in that crowd reactions are instant. You’re literally watching a story play out in real time instead of seeing news of it being filmed or animated and waiting for a release date. The crowd sees someone they like, they push them and reap the money even if it’s not so much as the main event guys. It’s not so much wins and losses but those wins and losses tying into an overall show’s narrative. If a guy loses a lot, this is them telling you, as a viewer, that this person doesn’t matter. Stop cheering them and go somewhere else which for a fan can be demoralising to watch. Jinder is a good example of the opposite version of that where they rush someone on top without giving us a reason to boo the guy and expect us to boo anyway regardless. Wins and losses are a storytelling tool in wrestling. If done well, you get Kota Ibushi/Shinsuke Nakamura from Wrestle Kingdom 9 where Ibushi lost but look great. If done wrong, you get Dean Ambrose/Dolph Ziggler where you tell the audience this guy has a history of being a loser and then loses. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 24, 2017 3:22:24 GMT -5
It is, because people need to understand that wins and losses aren't decided by anything more than a group of people in a room deciding who wins and who loses. That's it. The things we go gaga over on here are kind of irrelevant in the larger scheme of things. If Vince and the office likes you and decides that you're going to be portrayed as a winner, then you are. If not, well, look at Dolph Ziggler. They decided that he was going to be portrayed as a whiny loser that can never win "The Big One," and lo and behold, guess what he's perceived as now. The fact that the fans were turned against the guy so effectively based on nothing more than the office deciding that it would be so is the reason that the "M Word" is thrown around, because fans shouldn't be so easily manipulated by a competition that they know (or should know) by now is completely fictional. Wins and losses don't count. Hell, this year we've seen a career long jobber instantly turned into a world champion with a run that would make many "talented wrestlers'" runs look like flashes in the pan. That right there should say it all. Heck, the fact that Vince McMahon, Vince Russo, and Deputy Dewey from SCREAM are all former World Champions should have said it all years ago, and yet people still try to act like this is some sort of real competition. It isn't. Sorry for the late reply to this but I have been meaning to say something to this for a while and haven’t gotten around to it. I feel like you have a point but honestly, this stuff isn’t that different from how other fictional universes work. Let’s take Dragon Ball as a franchise in general, for example. Sure, Dragon Ball in general reached western shores later on but that was a show that gave investment, character growth and development to various human characters that people loved like Krillen, Bulma, Yamcha etc along with the main protagonist Goku. Whether they were fierce fighters or cocky blowhards, there felt like people you could want to see where they go and develop. When Dragonball Z came along and the wider universe opened up, those characters were shoved to the wayside for people who could kick their ass in a minute and even with minor bits of development here and there, they never really recovered from it. Krillen became the “strongest human” which might as well be a non-prize, Bulma became an anime wife, Yamcha was the joke of a joke etc. Sure, not everyone was going to get a push or Development compared to the Saiyins but the problem people had was that their creator just forgot about them and what they could do. Super’s done quite a bit to remedy this in some ways and not so much in others but there are people the community and fanbase really like almost as much as the powerhouse draws the show relies on. Wrestling’s a bit different in that crowd reactions are instant. You’re literally watching a story play out in real time instead of seeing news of it being filmed or animated and waiting for a release date. The crowd sees someone they like, they push them and reap the money even if it’s not so much as the main event guys. It’s not so much wins and losses but those wins and losses tying into an overall show’s narrative. If a guy loses a lot, this is them telling you, as a viewer, that this person doesn’t matter. Stop cheering them and go somewhere else which for a fan can be demoralising to watch. Jinder is a good example of the opposite version of that where they rush someone on top without giving us a reason to boo the guy and expect us to boo anyway regardless. Wins and losses are a storytelling tool in wrestling. If done well, you get Kota Ibushi/Shinsuke Nakamura from Wrestle Kingdom 9 where Ibushi lost but look great. If done wrong, you get Dean Ambrose/Dolph Ziggler where you tell the audience this guy has a history of being a loser and then loses. And instead of using that as a point of character advancement... just keeps on keeping on completely unchanged giving the crowd no reason to care about him because he's a loser. But the WWE something no other show has and they would absolutely kill for... instant fan response. They can tell what is working and what is not immediately... they can see who the fans attach to and instead of needing to wait for next season to fix it they can course correct the next day. |
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AlexaBliss4Life
Unicron
Alexa Bliss is the Queen the wrestling world needs!
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Post by AlexaBliss4Life on Dec 24, 2017 14:46:10 GMT -5
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Taking the World title off Ziggler in 2013 was a mistake. Del Rio was entirely heatless and imagine the pop if Dolph despite the pain of repeatedly getting his head kicked in, having double-turned with ADR successfully retained? Place would've gone crazy. It's sad us fans can book better than the multi-million dollar company.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 24, 2017 15:26:42 GMT -5
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Taking the World title off Ziggler in 2013 was a mistake. Del Rio was entirely heatless and imagine the pop if Dolph despite the pain of repeatedly getting his head kicked in, having double-turned with ADR successfully retained? Place would've gone crazy. It's sad us fans can book better than the multi-million dollar company. He got concussed so he had to vacate the belt. Bad luck Ziggler. |
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