WON: The 2 top matches at WM are...

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Jan 11, 2018 22:33:43 GMT -5 @kn said:

Jan 11, 2018 22:29:50 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

To be a clown because I know you not going to get all antsy me nitpicking one thing, didn't Strowman in kayfabe cause that injury to Roman?

I'm not positive but I think it happened when Strowman attacked Reigns during that ambulance flip thing? I think that's where he got injured but I'm not sure. I remember Reigns getting flipped and then next thing you know dude's walking out bandaged up at Payback lol.

Lol copy.

I mean my point to the question clarification because tho it's an "out" for Roman, the fact that Strowman caused the injury by whopping his ass and then proceeded to beat him during the match and after the match is more of a feather in the cap

Sure that muddies the water on the clean win argument in regards to if you cause the injury, would a subsequent victory still count as clean etc....

Anyway just my two cents...I have no argument for everything else

[bog]

I'm still interested in Cena/Taker despite the lack of a streak on the line, but the big Taker send off followed by him coming back the same time next year is getting Ric Flair levels of obnoxious

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Cena against Taker??? You saw ol fat fossil decrepit Mark Callaway in his last legs last year who in the hell wants to see a repeat of that?

[Milkman Norm]

No one. No one wants to see this.

[cjb01: Limited Edition Item!]

Jan 11, 2018 21:13:18 GMT -5 Gus Richlen: Ruffian said:

Jan 11, 2018 20:50:52 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Honestly, you’re both right to an extent. Here’s why:

Yes, they’ve given him a lot of accomplishments but some of those you mentioned, kn, have astrixes next to them. Like when you mentioned Roman eliminating Kane and Big Show. The reason he was able to eliminate them? Because they argued pointlessly. So Roman eliminated two big men who killed everyone else, sure, but only because of an utter fluke. It would have really benefited him to get rid of those two by himself and even after he did it, he needed his more famous blood relative to save him from a beat down.

On the other hand, it has never really seemed like WWE does things judging from fan reactions on that as much as you think. Sure, it might have influenced them but regardless of what happens to the guy, he’s always back to relevancy. He wins a title, he beats a threat, he wins a big match or gets a big win. He’s never had a cooldown period to let fans adjust to him. He’s there and even when he wasn’t near a belt, his stuff would he high on the card because that’s how they see him. I will agree that they never went full out regardless of those accomplishments but I put that down to booking incompetence rather than listening to fan reactions. Look at how easily told stories are put through the most overtly complex, over thought ringer every week. WWE hasn’t done a simple rivalry and not tried to act like they’re Game of Thrones for YEARS now.

The point I was trying to make, though, was how can he be called a failure when we really haven't seen anything to prove it? Comparing him to Hogan or Cena in terms of matches or promo work doesn't count, and neither do his accomplishments, whatever annotations or asterisks anyone wants to put next to him. Compared to a lot of other top guys he hasn't exactly had the sort of push where he's indisputably IT, as in a world championship run. In fact, someone had posted on the board a while ago how his attendance numbers stacked up to other people WWE had on top, and he was actually more in the middle because he really only had one run over a month. There needs to be solid evidence that he is any sort of failure, not just opinion.

I think a pretty good way to tell a character has failed is some of the stuff you've stated in this debate, and that is how much they've backtracked and tried to asterisk out, just the most recent example being Taker. 

Roman has tried to be WWE's Guy to the point they were trying to push THE GUY as their Top Catchphrase ever. Commentary plays extreme favoritism towards him and they almost seem like they care about him more than anyone else when he shows up. His Coronations and his wins, but to your point you bring up how is Roman a Failure? I'd say the proof is just how meaningless this has all felt. It's felt like four years of nothing happening. Roman wins, and wins, and doesn't progress, and for what? Nothing. You can say they haven't pushed him as IT, but they honestly really have. When Daniel Bryan went down, Roman became IT to them, whether that was the smart decision or not, doubling down on the Cena like super booking. As you said, a Wellness Violation was the only thing that actually slowed him down, and he shrugged that off. The amount of titles and accolades Roman has won that feel like nothing has actually happened is on Par with Del Rio or Sheamus. A laundry list of empty wins.

The buyrates and such declining steadily have shown a stagnation in the product, sure that's not all on Reigns but as you even said, he's not helping move a needle, so why keep having him either win win and win some more and never lose clean. And while he's lost yes, he NEVER. LOSES. CLEAN. His last clean loss is pushing Two Years Ago now to Balor. No Injury, no Shenanigans, just lost straight up. You don't get pushed and protected this much if WWE isn't trying to push you like a monster. Braun hasn't even been protected this much in two years... 

My bottom line is I get you ride or die with Roman for life, but I feel like your stance that Roman isn't a failure or that he was never being pushed as IT when he is going for a FOURTH STRAIGHT MANIA MAIN EVENT, is ridiculous. You need to own what he is if you're a fan of him, and what he is, is just not what WWE wants him to be, and again, that's their fault, for not growing Roman correctly, giving him actual obstacles and build, building his character like the rest of the Shield grew, or making anything seem organic or wanted, and especially the Cena Feud where he just looked like complete trash. 

If Roman isn't a Failure, he's Failing at the very least, and winning at Mania again isn't gonna help him, it didn't help him the first three times, and considering they just keep retconning what he's been doing to stars like Taker, it just makes you wonder what's the point of it all? Nothing has helped Roman in almost every single step of the way. It's seriously a push to be studied and dissected for how much bad can be done with the intent of forcing so much percieved good into something at once...

[Perd]

Yep, too late on the Cena/Taker front. The Dead Man now wrestles like an actual dead man.

And when it comes to Roman, I’m like parents who’ve caught their kids drinking. I’m not mad, I’m disappointed.

[Deleted]

It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Rumble and Lesnar thing worked years ago. Say it worked, Reigns got over and so on and so forth. How do you think Roman's accolades would have changed and where do you think this WM would be? Would we be worse off since we'll still be dealing with this shit or will they have finally started to move on?

I don't know but what I do know is that unlike with many top guys, Roman's past few years sort of blended together. It was difficult for me to write down all those accomplishments because I had to put years beside them and I was getting them mixed up. I can't say the same for Ambrose and Rollins given their years don't blend like that.

[xxshoyuweeniexx]

You know one major thing I noticed about WWE going “all in” on Roman? Despite the accomplIshments, the Michael Cole dickriding, etc..the show, the main flagship show...is rarely about “him” or his narrative.

They seem to want him to be “The Guy”, they call him “The Guy”..but the only time he was acting “The Guy” was post Mania 32 for about two months vs AJ before his wellness violation. Ever since he came back from that? Not really “The Guy”. Sure, he's had accomplishments, winning matches and Michael Cole creaming his dad jeans over the dude, but as I’ve been DVRing Raw for a while, very rarely has this show been about him. He might open the show, but a lot of times he just kinda bounces by 10 o clock. Cena never did that while on top, no “The Guy” did.

That’s why I kinda want Roman to win and we can finally see if he really sinks or swims. If the show becomes 100 percent his and it fails spectacularly? Then yeah, I’d say he’s failed. But if WWE and Roman can make his rivals and stories interesting as the main narrative? It might, maaaybe work. They just CANNOT pussy out once Roman beats Brock, they HAVE to stay the course to see if this will work or it won’t.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Jan 12, 2018 0:00:32 GMT -5 xxshoyuweeniexx said:

They seem to want him to be “The Guy”, they call him “The Guy”..but the only time he was acting “The Guy” was post Mania 32 for about two months vs AJ before his wellness violation. Ever since he came back from that? Not really “The Guy”. Sure, he's had accomplishments, winning matches and Michael Cole creaming his dad jeans over the dude, but as I’ve been DVRing Raw for a while, very rarely has this show been about him. He might open the show, but a lot of times he just kinda bounces by 10 o clock. Cena never did that while on top, no “The Guy” did.

I wouldn't put too much stock in where Reigns's segments are placed. Raw has such a dramatic drop off in viewership in the third hour that they've stopped putting the really important stuff there. This week the show closed with Balor Club vs. Roman, Seth, and Jordan which seems like it should be the main event, but the transition between the 2nd and 3rd hour featured Strowman and his grappling hook, and that's what would have closed Raw back in the 2 hour era.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Jan 12, 2018 0:00:32 GMT -5 xxshoyuweeniexx said:

You know one major thing I noticed about WWE going “all in” on Roman? Despite the accomplIshments, the Michael Cole dickriding, etc..the show, the main flagship show...is rarely about “him” or his narrative.

They seem to want him to be “The Guy”, they call him “The Guy”..but the only time he was acting “The Guy” was post Mania 32 for about two months vs AJ before his wellness violation. Ever since he came back from that? Not really “The Guy”. Sure, he's had accomplishments, winning matches and Michael Cole creaming his dad jeans over the dude, but as I’ve been DVRing Raw for a while, very rarely has this show been about him. He might open the show, but a lot of times he just kinda bounces by 10 o clock. Cena never did that while on top, no “The Guy” did.

That’s why I kinda want Roman to win and we can finally see if he really sinks or swims. If the show becomes 100 percent his and it fails spectacularly? Then yeah, I’d say he’s failed. But if WWE and Roman can make his rivals and stories interesting as the main narrative? It might, maaaybe work. They just CANNOT pussy out once Roman beats Brock, they HAVE to stay the course to see if this will work or it won’t.

Yea, pretty much he has to be given the ball and run with it at this point

It's sink or swim for him because if he doesn't make it than you go with the next option as THE GUY

Does that mean Roman gets downgraded to midcard, hell no but it does mean the time of things sort of revolving around him is done

They have no Rollins MITB excuse to fall back on, Roman defeats Brock and you see whether he can hang or not as his "legit chance" to make it work

[thegame415]

Can we just get Undertaker vs Kane in both guys last match?

[Jonathan Michaels]

I will only be satisfied if Taker comes back on his motorcycle as Rollin' plays.

[lionelp]

I have a feeling that we're getting Biker Taker.

'One last ride' on the leaked poster, looked conspicious.

[BD Punk AKA SUSPENDED!]

Jan 12, 2018 6:27:18 GMT -5 lionelp said:

I have a feeling that we're getting Biker Taker.

'One last ride' on the leaked poster, looked conspicious.

Me too. After Taker loses, he leaves his bike in the ring

[The Heartbreak TWERK]

Jan 12, 2018 2:21:58 GMT -5 thegame415 said:

Can we just get Undertaker vs Kane in both guys last match?

That sounds like garbage in-ring and Kane doesn't deserve the high profile.

[KofiMania]

Jan 12, 2018 6:27:18 GMT -5 lionelp said:

I have a feeling that we're getting Biker Taker.

'One last ride' on the leaked poster, looked conspicious.

That was a fan-made poster.

[KofiMania]

Bruce Prichard said he saw Undertaker around the holidays and he looked the best he had in 10 years and Taker told him he feels the best he has in 10 year, too.

[Feargus McReddit]

Jan 12, 2018 12:52:25 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Bruce Prichard said he saw Undertaker around the holidays and he looked the best he had in 10 years and Taker told him he feels the best he has in 10 year, too.

No disrespect but I'd rather believe someone else besides a man who is known to be highly biased for Vince and most of the ideas he's had.

Also, considering the next time he'll wrestle again is a year after his last match where he looked broken, he'll still most likely look bad because he'll be nowhere near ring shape for it.

[Deleted]

I also don't believe that "they said Taker looks great" thing either because this happens like every year. If he ends up looking better than ever than that'll be the first time it's happened in a great while.

[KofiMania]

Jan 12, 2018 13:32:04 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Jan 12, 2018 12:52:25 GMT -5 KofiMania said:

Bruce Prichard said he saw Undertaker around the holidays and he looked the best he had in 10 years and Taker told him he feels the best he has in 10 year, too.

No disrespect but I'd rather believe someone else besides a man who is known to be highly biased for Vince and most of the ideas he's had.

Also, considering the next time he'll wrestle again is a year after his last match where he looked broken, he'll still most likely look bad because he'll be nowhere near ring shape for it.

Maybe the hip problem had made it harder for him to work out and now he's in better shape after the hip surgery. And a year is a looong time to change your appearance.