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Post by Psy on May 2, 2018 10:55:18 GMT -5
DDP's was better, no doubt in my mind. Not saying Orton's isn't good, but DDP made it great.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 2, 2018 11:28:42 GMT -5
What I heard is he knocked himself loopy when he ran into the pole at full speed, so he kicked out at 2 because he was out of it. Could be I've heard completely wrong though. I think in either case whether Goldberg meant to kickout at 2.00 instead of 2.99 intentionally or not, it's a move that really should never be kicked out of for anybody BUT the Undefeated Goldberg. He as the WCW franchise wrestler in order to rise above DDP had to kickout, thankfully not until 2 at least to preserve the awesome underdog with a nuclear weapon gimmick DDP had going on tho. DDP did most of the work by delaying getting to the pincover after he did the counter, which was enough for me watching HHavok like to be irreversibly and perpetually impressed by both competitors in this match for this spot/match forever. Today's wrestlers can learn a lot from DDP protecting his finisher against the morons in booking, and similarly they can learn from how dependable a main eventer RKO is still over a decade after his WWE debut using just a sliver of Page's original gimmick, and keeping the RKO just as protected (not many, if any, have kicked out when Randy gets them outtanowhere like DDP used to.) Correct. The story is Goldberg did get knocked loopy and kicked out at 2 instead of 2.99 for that reason but Page was skeptical due to having to sell Goldberg on doing all these moves in the match because he just wanted to get his shit in and keep his aura.
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Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on May 2, 2018 11:37:03 GMT -5
I think Orton has done some cool ones that weren't just people "jumping at him". He did the Ziggler one where he countered the fameasser and threw him up in the air. He did the Del Rio one where he was going for the kick in the corner and kinda "fell" into an RKO. He did the best one ever when he countered the Curb Stomp and Mania and threw Seth in the air. Turned a chokeslam into one vs Taker ![](https://media.giphy.com/media/zUQj79dMY4Kg8/giphy.gif) Yea. Also part of the reason fans were excited about Orton vs Lesnar because it was assumed that man can do an RKO out of the F5. When you look at Orton, that looks far less impressive. Dude is on both feet, when almost all of the other times the Curb Stomp has been used, the dude on the receiving end has been on his knees, and Rollins basically sets himself up to get RKO'ed. It just looks so contrived, and in Kayfabe, Rollins looks like a doofus for not seeing that Orton isn't actually in position to have his skull driven into the mat.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on May 2, 2018 19:04:24 GMT -5
I love DDP, but I wonder if it annoys the shit out of Johnny Ace that he invented the move and a bunch of variations, only for DDP to adopt the move and those variations, and get lavished praise for it. Wow I had no idea Laurenitis did something that will probably outlive him and everyone else living today, excuse me while I go search online for videos of him using the move! Speaking of YT videos, DDP's story about Macho Man taking the Diamond Cutter is pretty awesome. His MM impersonation is spot on as well!
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 2, 2018 19:18:20 GMT -5
I love DDP, but I wonder if it annoys the shit out of Johnny Ace that he invented the move and a bunch of variations, only for DDP to adopt the move and those variations, and get lavished praise for it. Johnny Ace's move was more like a Stone Cold Stunner. I've seen him do it a few times and what was interesting was that he didn't use it just as a finisher but as a move he would do all throughout his matches. In one match he used like 6 or 7 of this move. It depended, sometimes he seemed to land more like a stunner, sometimes it was definitely more like Page's. Bodypressing into it, top rope, on the apron, etc. Though, kinda strangely, he'd call other moves crushers, too, like the Rocker Dropper, he'd do as the Ace Crusher II, or a Rude Awakening-style neckbreaker, he'd also call an Ace Crusher variation. I guess they all kinda targeted the neck and head, so thematically it fit.
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schma
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Post by schma on May 2, 2018 23:23:52 GMT -5
![](https://media.giphy.com/media/zUQj79dMY4Kg8/giphy.gif) Yea. Also part of the reason fans were excited about Orton vs Lesnar because it was assumed that man can do an RKO out of the F5. When you look at Orton, that looks far less impressive. Dude is on both feet, when almost all of the other times the Curb Stomp has been used, the dude on the receiving end has been on his knees, and Rollins basically sets himself up to get RKO'ed. It just looks so contrived, and in Kayfabe, Rollins looks like a doofus for not seeing that Orton isn't actually in position to have his skull driven into the mat. Definitely seeing it in a gif where you can examine it more closely takes away from it. When I was watching the match I was genuinely impressed but the more I see it, the less it gets me. Still although the spot was clearly planned and worked out it was a good one.
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Post by -Lithium- on May 3, 2018 1:04:27 GMT -5
And, of course, the greatest Diamond Cutter of them all. ![](https://i.imgur.com/EYbHK7D.gif) Should have been it. Maybe DDP an even bigger star and World Champ back when it meant a bit more. Even though 6 months or whatever wasn't long, by the time it came in April 99, the prestige had plummeted. Also, it makes since that this would be the thing that ends it. Something out of no where that you can't prepare for. One of the reasons Nash putting up such a fight and eventually winning was stupid because like...what does Nash have to offer that no one else does? Oh, hes a big guy! Hes strong! Thats it? Just raw power? It's so dumb. Goldberg beat the f***ing Giant in like 2 minutes. Something like the Diamond Cutter being the one thing Goldberg couldn't neutralize made sense as an ending to the streak. Also, I prefer the RKO.
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Post by benstudd on May 4, 2018 4:39:15 GMT -5
And, of course, the greatest Diamond Cutter of them all. ![](https://i.imgur.com/EYbHK7D.gif) Should have been it. Maybe DDP an even bigger star and World Champ back when it meant a bit more. Even though 6 months or whatever wasn't long, by the time it came in April 99, the prestige had plummeted. Also, it makes since that this would be the thing that ends it. Something out of no where that you can't prepare for. One of the reasons Nash putting up such a fight and eventually winning was stupid because like...what does Nash have to offer that no one else does? Oh, hes a big guy! Hes strong! Thats it? Just raw power? It's so dumb. Goldberg beat the f***ing Giant in like 2 minutes. Something like the Diamond Cutter being the one thing Goldberg couldn't neutralize made sense as an ending to the streak. Also, I prefer the RKO. The thing is though, the Cutter may have been the biggest devastating move but at the end of the day, DDP was DDP and Goldberg was Goldberg. Goldberg was at the top of the food chain.
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on May 4, 2018 15:17:18 GMT -5
That is perhaps the best use of a face vs face match, to get a guy who will most likely be the big midcard face to elevate a guy like Goldberg who is on his way straight to the top in the main event. It's really hard to pull off with a clean finish (obviously since they're both faces) and not making the midcard (DDP) guy look like he was outclassed.
DDP earned a moral victory like nobody else in the WCW did (he had Goldberg prone on the mat and got a nearfall pincover attempt which arguably could've been a 3-count if he was faster to cover) which protected his status, and Goldberg's "Who's Next?!" gimmick remains intact despite the hardfought victory dinging his untarnished undefeated armour a bit (makes him more human aka more susceptible to losing a match which makes all his matches must-see while he remains undefeated since this was a close one).
They have nearly done this same type of booking with Seth Rollins and the IC title, only it's at the expense of The Miz who I feel would've done more with it against Daniel Bryan on SDLive (who had to relinquish it so huge storyline potential there with Miz) but I would definitely peg Rollins as a Page-like face in terms of having that same electricity around him to elevate anybody WWE Creative wants in the main event, while holding down the midcard division at the same time. Hell he had the IC/WWEWHC titles at the same time at one point.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 4, 2018 16:30:57 GMT -5
Yeah they used the Diamond Cutter as an explanation of "Why is this jobber so damn good all of a sudden?". They would talk about how the Diamond Cutter had become DDPs equalizer and Tenay would talk about all the training he'd done to learn how to apply the Cutter from anywhere. It was pretty well done. Works a lot better than Cole telling us that this guy is a very different guy than we remember from a few years ago as the only explanation for why someone isn't a jobber anymore.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 16:50:12 GMT -5
I remember one time DDP did a top rope Diamond Cutter and the announcers called it the "Diamond Death Cutter", like if that hit, you were dead. It was so cool back then to see someone's main move having so many variations.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on May 4, 2018 19:10:02 GMT -5
I think Orton has done some cool ones that weren't just people "jumping at him". He did the Ziggler one where he countered the fameasser and threw him up in the air. He did the Del Rio one where he was going for the kick in the corner and kinda "fell" into an RKO. He did the best one ever when he countered the Curb Stomp and Mania and threw Seth in the air. Turned a chokeslam into one vs Taker. My favourite one is Cena trying to AA him turning into an RKO.
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Shark
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Post by Shark on May 4, 2018 19:42:28 GMT -5
Should have been it. Maybe DDP an even bigger star and World Champ back when it meant a bit more. Even though 6 months or whatever wasn't long, by the time it came in April 99, the prestige had plummeted. Also, it makes since that this would be the thing that ends it. Something out of no where that you can't prepare for. One of the reasons Nash putting up such a fight and eventually winning was stupid because like...what does Nash have to offer that no one else does? Oh, hes a big guy! Hes strong! Thats it? Just raw power? It's so dumb. Goldberg beat the f***ing Giant in like 2 minutes. Something like the Diamond Cutter being the one thing Goldberg couldn't neutralize made sense as an ending to the streak. Also, I prefer the RKO. The thing is though, the Cutter may have been the biggest devastating move but at the end of the day, DDP was DDP and Goldberg was Goldberg. Goldberg was at the top of the food chain. DDP was at his peak at that point though. He's feuded with Hogan most of the summer. Had a lot of mainstream appeal thanks to doing the angles with Karl Malone and Jay Leno. It would have been taking the title off a guy super hot in Goldberg to a guy who is also hot in DDP. Could've even had Goldberg win the title back at Starrcade. Have him dominate the WW3 battle royal and he wins it back in December. Goldberg wouldn't have lost any of his aura by losing.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on May 4, 2018 20:24:46 GMT -5
Should have been it. Maybe DDP an even bigger star and World Champ back when it meant a bit more. Even though 6 months or whatever wasn't long, by the time it came in April 99, the prestige had plummeted. Had they not illogically turned DDP heel and brought him back at the exact same time as both Sting and Savage with no buildup, I'm convinced the fans would have gone for it. DDP was only hurt due to the absolutely inane booking decisions of WCW in the spring and summer of 1999, but at least no WCW main eventer escaped that period unscathed.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 5, 2018 14:22:34 GMT -5
And, of course, the greatest Diamond Cutter of them all. ![](https://i.imgur.com/EYbHK7D.gif) Should have been it. Maybe DDP an even bigger star and World Champ back when it meant a bit more. Even though 6 months or whatever wasn't long, by the time it came in April 99, the prestige had plummeted. Also, it makes since that this would be the thing that ends it. Something out of no where that you can't prepare for. One of the reasons Nash putting up such a fight and eventually winning was stupid because like...what does Nash have to offer that no one else does? Oh, hes a big guy! Hes strong! Thats it? Just raw power? It's so dumb. Goldberg beat the f***ing Giant in like 2 minutes. Something like the Diamond Cutter being the one thing Goldberg couldn't neutralize made sense as an ending to the streak. Also, I prefer the RKO. I wouldn't have minded DDP winning one bit, but Nash made sense too (just not the way they did it). By fall 1998 he was probably the most over babyface in the company and was probably second only to Steve Austin in all of wrestling (with the possible exception of that short period when The Rock was a face). I think people sometimes forget or ignore how big of a star he was as the leader of the Wolfpac.
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SAJ Forth
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Post by SAJ Forth on May 6, 2018 4:41:18 GMT -5
The Diamond Cutter did seem like it could come from out of nowhere. The RKO is pretty much limited to "guy jumping in Orton's direction." Definitely.
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on May 6, 2018 7:03:02 GMT -5
The coolest outta nowhere move for me will always be HBK's superkick.
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Post by héad.casé on May 6, 2018 9:03:18 GMT -5
Definitely prefer the Diamond Cutter. As you can see from the gif where he does it to Eddie in this thread, DDP would work to apply it from moves that looked like they were setting up something else. I love the RKO, but you'd think after so many years, people would stop springboarding and jumping off the ropes in matches with him knowing he could hit it.
I do love the Curb Stomp reversal one though, just for Orton marking out so hard that he pulled it off (apparently they'd been practicing that all day and could not hit it before show time) and completely forgetting to cover Seth for a few seconds.
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Post by benstudd on May 6, 2018 20:48:23 GMT -5
The thing is though, the Cutter may have been the biggest devastating move but at the end of the day, DDP was DDP and Goldberg was Goldberg. Goldberg was at the top of the food chain. DDP was at his peak at that point though. He's feuded with Hogan most of the summer. Had a lot of mainstream appeal thanks to doing the angles with Karl Malone and Jay Leno. It would have been taking the title off a guy super hot in Goldberg to a guy who is also hot in DDP. Could've even had Goldberg win the title back at Starrcade. Have him dominate the WW3 battle royal and he wins it back in December. Goldberg wouldn't have lost any of his aura by losing. I agree that DDP was at his peek and I would not have minded DDP winning there. That being said, I have never bought DDP as a top guy. He always felt like an imposter to me.
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Post by evilone on May 6, 2018 21:07:38 GMT -5
The coolest outta nowhere move for me will always be HBK's superkick. Meh, Shawn was way too talented to have such an unwrestling and unmemorable finisher. Never understood the need to throw in fist punching and kicks into wrestling matches, I think they detract from the match actually. BTW this thread needs more Kanyon gifs
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