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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 7, 2023 23:54:49 GMT -5
Now I always had the impression he had little to do with Nemesis? I remember him giving interviews after it came out expressing his disappointment. He didn't have as much to do with it as Spiner, who more or less came up with the story while starring in a production of 1776 on Broadway. He met with John Logan at that time and after brainstorming with Rick Berman, Berman gave them the go-ahead to work on a screenplay. Then they ran it by Stewart who gave them his suggestions, and then finally Stuart Baird. Depending on who you ask, Spiner added the dune buggy scene as a "midlife crisis" rib on Stewart, who had taken up a number of extreme sports in his 60s, or Stewart and Baird added it because they wanted a first act action sequence. Baird turned out to be the biggest issue with the movie, at least creatively. He had no love nor knowledge of Star Trek as a franchise, and chose to stay ignorant because he didn't want it to feel like a Star Trek movie. Infamously he didn't even learn the cast's names, calling LeVar Burton "Laverne" and referring to Michael Dorn and Marina Sirtis by their character names. Of course, everybody distanced themselves from it post-release. Sirtis, who had been threatened with being replaced with Jeri Ryan if she didn't drop her salary demands (until it was pointed out that Ryan would have been the more expensive option), has gone on some truly epic rants against Baird and the movie itself over the years. |
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Post by Feyrhausen on May 8, 2023 4:53:28 GMT -5
Now I always had the impression he had little to do with Nemesis? I remember him giving interviews after it came out expressing his disappointment. He didn't have as much to do with it as Spiner, who more or less came up with the story while starring in a production of 1776 on Broadway. He met with John Logan at that time and after brainstorming with Rick Berman, Berman gave them the go-ahead to work on a screenplay. Then they ran it by Stewart who gave them his suggestions, and then finally Stuart Baird. Depending on who you ask, Spiner added the dune buggy scene as a "midlife crisis" rib on Stewart, who had taken up a number of extreme sports in his 60s, or Stewart and Baird added it because they wanted a first act action sequence. Baird turned out to be the biggest issue with the movie, at least creatively. He had no love nor knowledge of Star Trek as a franchise, and chose to stay ignorant because he didn't want it to feel like a Star Trek movie. Infamously he didn't even learn the cast's names, calling LeVar Burton "Laverne" and referring to Michael Dorn and Marina Sirtis by their character names. Of course, everybody distanced themselves from it post-release. Sirtis, who had been threatened with being replaced with Jeri Ryan if she didn't drop her salary demands (until it was pointed out that Ryan would have been the more expensive option), has gone on some truly epic rants against Baird and the movie itself over the years. It might have been salvageable but they apparently gave Baird creative control and final cut as well. Edit. Checking again it seems the writer had a no rewrites clause. |
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
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Post by schma on May 8, 2023 8:20:33 GMT -5
He didn't have as much to do with it as Spiner, who more or less came up with the story while starring in a production of 1776 on Broadway. He met with John Logan at that time and after brainstorming with Rick Berman, Berman gave them the go-ahead to work on a screenplay. Then they ran it by Stewart who gave them his suggestions, and then finally Stuart Baird. Depending on who you ask, Spiner added the dune buggy scene as a "midlife crisis" rib on Stewart, who had taken up a number of extreme sports in his 60s, or Stewart and Baird added it because they wanted a first act action sequence. Baird turned out to be the biggest issue with the movie, at least creatively. He had no love nor knowledge of Star Trek as a franchise, and chose to stay ignorant because he didn't want it to feel like a Star Trek movie. Infamously he didn't even learn the cast's names, calling LeVar Burton "Laverne" and referring to Michael Dorn and Marina Sirtis by their character names. Of course, everybody distanced themselves from it post-release. Sirtis, who had been threatened with being replaced with Jeri Ryan if she didn't drop her salary demands (until it was pointed out that Ryan would have been the more expensive option), has gone on some truly epic rants against Baird and the movie itself over the years. It might have been salvageable but they apparently gave Baird creative control and final cut as well. Edit. Checking again it seems the writer had a no rewrites clause. I didn't realize writers could even get a clause like that. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 8, 2023 8:35:02 GMT -5
I decided to start watching after the word of mouth was so good. I'm up to season 4. It's actually genuinely good!
I hated the first season but stuck it out. I gave the second season a shot, but despised it to the point that I stopped watching it. halfway through.
Season 3 is really like a completely different show. If you're on the fence after the first 2 seasons being ass check it out. And if you haven't watched the first 2 seasons just skip them entirely and maybe read a summary.
If I have one complaint so far, I still don't like swearing in my Star Trek. But even with that it never feels as gratuitous as it did in past seasons.
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
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Post by CMWaters on May 8, 2023 8:55:42 GMT -5
If I have one complaint so far, I still don't like swearing in my Star Trek. But even with that it never feels as gratuitous as it did in past seasons. See, I never got this argument. While the goal-posts have shifted over time, swearing has been a thing since the original series (first thing I can think of is Kirk saying "Let's get the hell out of here" at the end of City on the Edge of Forever, which in 1960s TV unless used in the biblical sense was a very iffy thing to put on regular TV. Here's a list from the wiki "Memory Alpha" about various uses of profanity throughout Star Trek (admittedly imbalanced to post-Nemesis created stuff, but there are earlier examples too): memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Profanity |
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Post by Feyrhausen on May 8, 2023 9:17:40 GMT -5
It might have been salvageable but they apparently gave Baird creative control and final cut as well. Edit. Checking again it seems the writer had a no rewrites clause. I didn't realize writers could even get a clause like that. Apparently it is something often asked for but almost never granted. I dont know why the writer got it, but the director got the job at Paramounts insistence because his editing saved Tomb Raider. So maybe the writer did something similar. But either way no one could rewrite or edit the script, and the director didnt care to insist on anything as he had no knowledge of Trek. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 8, 2023 11:18:05 GMT -5
If I have one complaint so far, I still don't like swearing in my Star Trek. But even with that it never feels as gratuitous as it did in past seasons. See, I never got this argument. While the goal-posts have shifted over time, swearing has been a thing since the original series (first thing I can think of is Kirk saying "Let's get the hell out of here" at the end of City on the Edge of Forever, which in 1960s TV unless used in the biblical sense was a very iffy thing to put on regular TV. Here's a list from the wiki "Memory Alpha" about various uses of profanity throughout Star Trek (admittedly imbalanced to post-Nemesis created stuff, but there are earlier examples too): memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/ProfanityI mainly had f*** in mind when writing that, which is definitely a modern Trek thing. Shit too, to a lesser extent. I'm not bothered by swearing generally, but those two in particular just rarely feel right for Star Trek. Looking it over the ENT writers apparently loved "son of a bitch" |
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Post by Hit Girl on May 8, 2023 11:54:02 GMT -5
"F***" in Trek is just lazy, shitty writing, along with all the contemporary social media type slang and phrases and pretentious pseudo poetry they shove into dialogue.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on May 8, 2023 13:20:03 GMT -5
I never really cared if there was cursing in Star Trek. Doesn't make sense that strong curses would go away just because it's the future.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 8, 2023 13:57:42 GMT -5
Apparently it is something often asked for but almost never granted. I dont know why the writer got it, but the director got the job at Paramounts insistence because his editing saved Tomb Raider. So maybe the writer did something similar. But either way no one could rewrite or edit the script, and the director didnt care to insist on anything as he had no knowledge of Trek. Logan was fresh off an Oscar win for Gladiator and an Emmy nom for RKO 281, so he'd gotten himself some clout. He won two further Oscars, a Golden Globe, and a Tony in the following years as well. |
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on May 8, 2023 14:05:16 GMT -5
I way prefer people just saying "f***" in Star Trek over all of the awkward tapdancing around OHOHOHTHISEPISODEISABOUTSEXBUTWEARENTGOINGTOSAYIT that the TNG era shows were fond of.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on May 8, 2023 14:21:51 GMT -5
I way prefer people just saying "f***" in Star Trek over all of the awkward tapdancing around OHOHOHTHISEPISODEISABOUTSEXBUTWEARENTGOINGTOSAYIT that the TNG era shows were fond of. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 8, 2023 14:36:35 GMT -5
I never really cared if there was cursing in Star Trek. Doesn't make sense that strong curses would go away just because it's the future. "f***" has been part of the English language for 700+ years. Profanity has been part of human language for thousands of years. The idea that it would simply go away because we become a spacefaring race and turn Earth into a post-scarcity society is almost asinine, especially when you've got crazy captains, shady admirals, Section 31, smugglers, and pirates running around. And that's not even mentioning the Klingons, who absolutely love cussing. |
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Post by The Captain on May 8, 2023 14:47:06 GMT -5
Colorful metaphors have been part of Trek for ages, especially among Humans and Klingons. I could see Vulcans being above it just because profanity usually indicates an emotional response (see: Spock's awkward usage of it in The Voyage Home lol). Data saying "Oh shit!" in Generations was wonderful on that note. Granted, I imagine some phrases fall out of favor as the years and vernacular go by, like "dumbass" (see also: The Voyage Home). But the reason there probably wasn't as much cursing in Trek to begin with is not wanting to incur FCC fines or people with double standards where all sorts of violence (fantasy or real) is fine, but "shit" makes them cry.
Basically, I agree 100% with the likes of Lewis Black and Jim Jefferies when it comes to so-called curse words.
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on May 8, 2023 15:29:35 GMT -5
Colorful metaphors have been part of Trek for ages, especially among Humans and Klingons. I could see Vulcans being above it just because profanity usually indicates an emotional response (see: Spock's awkward usage of it in The Voyage Home lol). Data saying "Oh shit!" in Generations was wonderful on that note. Granted, I imagine some phrases fall out of favor as the years and vernacular go by, like "dumbass" (see also: The Voyage Home). But the reason there probably wasn't as much cursing in Trek to begin with is not wanting to incur FCC fines or people with double standards where all sorts of violence (fantasy or real) is fine, but "shit" makes them cry. Basically, I agree 100% with the likes of Lewis Black and Jim Jefferies when it comes to so-called curse words.
And even in the TNG era they got around that by having Picard say "merde", which is pretty much the French version of shit. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 8, 2023 15:57:58 GMT -5
Colorful metaphors have been part of Trek for ages, especially among Humans and Klingons. I could see Vulcans being above it just because profanity usually indicates an emotional response (see: Spock's awkward usage of it in The Voyage Home lol). Data saying "Oh shit!" in Generations was wonderful on that note. Most profanity is a result of emotion. Humans are an emotional species, so Roddenberry's idea that humans no longer curse because they've evolved beyond it is the same kind of pie in the sky thinking that gave us "crewmates have no interpersonal conflicts" in TNG's early seasons. So yeah, when Data gains the ability to feel emotions in Generations of course one of the first things he does is swear in a moment of high stress, and it's a great moment. It's why I never had any issue with Admiral Hubris swearing in the first season of Picard. Here's a pompous, self-righteous guy who walked away from Starfleet and then went on the 24th century equivalent of CNN to publicly denounce the organisation a couple of days before strolling into Starfleet Headquarters demanding to be temporarily reinstated and given command of a ship? Sheer f***ing hubris indeed. Discovery's use of profanity was less earned. I get Tilly's an easily excitable character and all, but that did feel like "We're no longer beholden to network rules, so we're gonna swear like big boys." |
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Post by Feyrhausen on May 8, 2023 16:48:26 GMT -5
So did this occur to anyone?
There have been 9 ships named Enterprise. 7 of those ships have had a prefix (A through G). Jeri Ryans character is now captain of Enterprise 7 of 9.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 8, 2023 17:18:50 GMT -5
Colorful metaphors have been part of Trek for ages, especially among Humans and Klingons. I could see Vulcans being above it just because profanity usually indicates an emotional response (see: Spock's awkward usage of it in The Voyage Home lol). Data saying "Oh shit!" in Generations was wonderful on that note. Granted, I imagine some phrases fall out of favor as the years and vernacular go by, like "dumbass" (see also: The Voyage Home). But the reason there probably wasn't as much cursing in Trek to begin with is not wanting to incur FCC fines or people with double standards where all sorts of violence (fantasy or real) is fine, but "shit" makes them cry. Basically, I agree 100% with the likes of Lewis Black and Jim Jefferies when it comes to so-called curse words.
And even in the TNG era they got around that by having Picard say "merde", which is pretty much the French version of shit. That’s just classy |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on May 8, 2023 17:28:50 GMT -5
And even in the TNG era they got around that by having Picard say "merde", which is pretty much the French version of shit. That’s just classy Doubly so when you consider that canonically French is a dead language in the 24th century. |
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Post by The Captain on May 8, 2023 17:48:21 GMT -5
Picard is fluent in French and while it is considered an archaic language, the TNG episode that idea mostly comes from is the infamous "Code of Honor."
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