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Post by WoodStoner1 on Feb 10, 2019 11:45:06 GMT -5
Kurt Angle beating Samoa Joe when all the titles were on the line. Tna basically killed Joe's momentum and had a heel win. The one moment where you could tell that they didn't give a flying f*** about basic storytelling. You know how WWE's fault is not giving outsiders a chance because they're outsiders? TNA's was giving EVERY WWE castoff a chance over their own creations.
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Feb 10, 2019 11:47:09 GMT -5
Immediate instinct is the Sandman crucifixion for how thoroughly that bit ECW on the ass, but there's probably worse out there. Meh, Mass Transit and never going all the way with RVD (semi related, but Justin Credible: World Champion too) were just as bad if not worse for business. Depends on how much you think Kurt Angle would be a boon to the company.
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Feb 10, 2019 11:48:56 GMT -5
As for Austin's heel turn, I see what you meant, but it wasn't a total washout because he was so into the character.
Now, when the What? chants came....which would ruin promos upon promos for years to come....
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Feb 10, 2019 11:52:16 GMT -5
What makes people think that putting the AWA title on Hogan would have kept him around? Verne probably extended the life of his company by a year or two by virtue of not having his World Champion jump to the competition as would have inevitably happened.
The true downfall of WCW as a promotion that had a chance to come back and win the Wars again wasn't really the Fingerpoke, though that was certainly indefensible. It was the Hoga-Flair double turn a few months later. THAT'S where ratings, attendance, and buys really started to tank.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Feb 10, 2019 14:58:49 GMT -5
You can’t argue with Austin turning heel.
You can say whatever want about how good he was as a heel but the fact of the matter is that their hottest period ever was stopped dead in it’s tracks with this booking decision.
WWE never recovered. Hell, Wrestling never recovered.
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Post by chronocross on Feb 10, 2019 15:04:04 GMT -5
People seriously do not understand wrestling here. Starcade 97, while the finish of the match is kinda dumb, how is the NWO continuing one of the worst decisions ever? 98 was huge, people actually LIKED the NWO Wolfpac and even the feud with Warrior. Fingerpoke of doom: in no way is this the worst booking decision ever. The only people who say it is are ignorant. Again, they had higher ratings for the next few weeks as people WANTED to see this. Yes, people still in 99 wanted to see the NWO. As much as *you and all your friends* didn't, tons more did. Listen to the pop as the NWO beat down Goldberg. What was wrong was the FOLLOW-UP. This itself is not the worst booking position to be in. Austin turning heel.....I have argued this extensively in a recent thread, but again, I disagree I wasn't that bothered by the Starrcade match at the time, I was bothered more by the rematch the next night on Nitro which led to a schmozz-finish causing Sting to get stripped of the WCW title and having to fight for it two months later at Superbrawl 8.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 16:32:33 GMT -5
Probably not the worst as TNA is small potatoes compacted to legit big time promotions, but Superman Jeff Jarrett is some of the worst shit ever devised and likely destroyed TNA before it even started solely so a midcard guy could get to cosplay as a world champion.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on Feb 11, 2019 13:36:58 GMT -5
You can’t argue with Austin turning heel. You can say whatever want about how good he was as a heel but the fact of the matter is that their hottest period ever was stopped dead in it’s tracks with this booking decision. WWE never recovered. Hell, Wrestling never recovered. I still don't know if pro wrestling lost it's mojo BECAUSE of that Austin turn. I feel like pro wrestling, as the mainstream juggernaut it had been from 1997-2000, was already deflating by WM17 and was going to continue to lose in popularity no matter what WWF booked. It was almost a trend that had officially turned into 'a fad' as most trends do. That writing was on the wall, especially once WCW turned to bad TV, and then was subsequently cancelled. Also not helping things, I remember reading a dirtsheet (I think Figure Four Weekly) written at some point in spring 2001 claiming the WWF product had gotten stale (I forget the correct wording, it was something like how the writer of the dirtsheet was responding to a comment Steph made about declining TV ratings, claiming that weekly TV had turned stale which contributed to the downturn). I think that was a factor in the mainstream deflation. Yes the heel turn was far from perfect, but the Austin/Vince handshake did not single-handedly (nor dual-handedly ) kill the glory years.
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Feb 11, 2019 14:01:53 GMT -5
Turning Austin heel is - as JR said - like having John Wayne play a Nazi. Who wants to see that?
You only have to hear the Austin pops at WM17 and even at Invasion before the second heel turn to know it was the wrong time. So much money lost and also what we have to blame for Cena and Reigns not turning when they blatantly should have. WWE is feart to pull the trigger on their top star as a heel because of what happened with Austin - even when it is staring them in the face as the obvious decision.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 14:06:16 GMT -5
The Invasion
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Post by WoodStoner1 on Feb 11, 2019 14:20:15 GMT -5
You can’t argue with Austin turning heel. You can say whatever want about how good he was as a heel but the fact of the matter is that their hottest period ever was stopped dead in it’s tracks with this booking decision. WWE never recovered. Hell, Wrestling never recovered. I am still torn on this. There is that, but the lack of competition/botching the InVasion would have killed the boom period off anyway too. Where else would they have gone with a face Austin? I'd say at the time it was getting old and needed to be mixed up, but then again, who am I to doubt buyrates, etc.? Let me ask you...did it save business when they turned him back? (I'd actually say post-InVasion, nay, post-2003 comeback Austin was REALLY stale. We complain about Steph never getting comeuppance, but Sheriff Austin was almost as much a one-sided character)
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Feb 11, 2019 14:30:56 GMT -5
I can't have Hogan in the AWA on such a list. Once Vince and New York came calling, he was gone. In some ways, *not* putting the belt on him probably extended the life of Verne's company. And that single decision cost Verne everything. Greg wanted to give Hogan a bigger deal and the belt but Verne didn’t because he was a cheap f***, he also stole Hogan’s merch money.
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sebulba
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Post by sebulba on Feb 12, 2019 8:44:21 GMT -5
It’s more like a top 5 than the single worst, but HHH going over Booker in the fashion he did at WM was the summation of a lot of really uncomfortable aspects of the industry, in particular ego and racism. Hell yes! Add to that HHH killing the momentum of RVD and Goldberg at Elimination Chamber.....
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Feb 12, 2019 18:25:54 GMT -5
Verne Gagne not putting the belt on Hulk Hogan and riding the Hulkamania craze, which forced Hogan to go to WWF and put them on the map. I'm going with this right here.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Feb 12, 2019 18:31:01 GMT -5
Going through with Crown Jewel.
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TGM
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Post by TGM on Feb 12, 2019 19:40:02 GMT -5
Look at Steve Austin in 2002. If not for the heel turn we would have had thar a year earlier. Putting the blame on the declining viewership directly on a single heel turn is ignoring a ton of other factors.
1) HHH and The Rock who had carried WWF in 2000, both leave within months of each other. Rock doesn't return until July and HHH until January next year. These were two very popular wrestlers.
2) The Invasion begins and either A) a lot of WCW fans refuse to watch WWF. B) WCW fans dislike the way their wrestlers are being portrayed (look at DDP and Booker T) and switch off. C) WWF fans just plain don't want to see WCW jobbers on their shows and switch off. D) a combination of the above.
3) McMahon family all over the product and shoe-horned into everything. This has been going on since 1999. Who cares anymore?
4) A ton of upper midcard wrestlers who were knocking it out of the park in 2000 disappeared in 2001. Mick Foley (for the most part), Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko, Chyna, Edge and Christian (as a team) Rikishi etc were all big stars who weren't around anymore.
Blaming everything on the Austin heel turn is a convenient and lazy answer.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Feb 12, 2019 19:43:41 GMT -5
The one-two punch of the Austin heel turn and the inVasion angle threw bucket of ice water on the company at a time when it had never been hotter.
As far as individual booking decisions go, not having Punk involved with Rock/Cena 2 gets my vote. Wrestling may look very different today if that would have happened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 20:08:06 GMT -5
Making the Invasion Angle all about the McMahon’s.
“A McMahon owns every company!”, just a year after WM16 when they did that whole “A McMahon in every corner!” garbage.
Any storyline where the McMahons or HHH decide to stick their Orr in when it’s not wanted. Summer of Punk, Becky Lynch, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 20:35:19 GMT -5
The Invasion angle 100%. That should have been the biggest wrestling storyline in history but Vince couldn’t get out of his own way.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Feb 12, 2019 20:41:19 GMT -5
The Invasion angle 100%. That should have been the biggest wrestling storyline in history but Vince couldn’t get out of his own way. Some of that was out of their hands. Some of the top talent wanted to ride out their contracts, and Vince wanted to shop out WCW like they did with ECW on Sci-Fi, but no one wanted it. ECW at least had a cache to it, but WCW was too bogged down in loser stink by then.
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