Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Mar 26, 2019 12:20:08 GMT -5
These OP discussions are reaching self parody I feel... You just say that because mods are OP. You guys can ban people,delete threads and we cant do anything similar Mods should be nerfed. Wait until the next patch update.
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Post by Tenshigure on Mar 26, 2019 12:22:39 GMT -5
Okay, here we go...yet another thread that's going to try to take a current 'hot streak' and turn it into something it really isn't. From the top! Tonight's Beat the Clock may have been a meaningless series of matches, but the booking of her taking a Charlotte big boot beforehand but still easily beating Ronda's time (and Charlotte somehow still continuing her long losing streak even in this situation) it also really highlighted how incredibly strong and how protected Becky's booking has been for the last nine months. She beat Ronda's time by a whopping 7 seconds, at 1:18. Had she actually beaten Liv IN 7 seconds (ie dropped her and slapped on a Dis-Arm-Her instantaneously), you may have had an argument there. But no, she got knocked around a bit before that. Plus, let's not kid ourselves here, it wasn't Lynch that "looked OP" here, it was that the Riott Squad yet again looked like a bunch of goobers, all (save for Ruby herself, but who was likely going to tap) losing in under two minutes. Lesnar did the same back in '06, not an original event. They're trying to build her up as a legitimate main eventer, and they can't do that without having her on a hot streak of wins. If she came out and ran her mouth, but never won any of the matches thrown in her way as she was trying to establish her new "The Man" persona, it would've been booed out of the building. This was entirely within the storyline being told: she was getting too cocky for her own good, refused medical attention despite clearly needing it, and running off of pure adrenaline to get the best of her opponents. Had she been running to the ring and no-selling the injury you may have a point, but she was continually getting laid out or hobbled as a result of the knee (a little too much in some cases).
Charlotte did the same in response on multiple occasions to Lynch during this time. It was a mixed back-and-forth throughout this, but most of it was Charlotte running her mouth to antagonize Lynch into doing something stupid as a result. They're playing straight into the nepotism, but it's not as one-sided on the beatdowns as you're making it out to be. Hell, in the last three weeks it has been Ronda standing tall after beating down both Lynch and Charlotte.
You can't count house show matches, for all intents and purposes they run literally the exact same rehearsed match repeatedly save for maybe a spot or two/the outcomes are almost always the same including who wins and who takes the fall.
...she's literally the only female singles babyface on Raw right now. No seriously, with Sasha and Bayley busy with the tag division, there is NO other Raw female face on the show. Hell, matter of fact, there is only THREE total female babyfaces on Smackdown (Asuka, Becky, and Carmella) out of the 11 listed on the active roster.
I get that there should be even booking, but it's not like she's standing tall at the end of every segment (most of the time she's hunched over nursing her leg or laying in the corner lately). If she were dominant in those cases, I'd see where you were going with her supposed 'OP booking,' but there is vulnerability in all of those cases.
Also, Samoa Joe is the current United States Champion who has decisively held onto it for several weeks now (even defending it successfully on multiple occasions). While he certainly was booked poorly in the last year or so, "What have you done for me lately?" points to him doing pretty well for himself despite the fact.
I'd be curious to see how Becky's character was booked like a god to begin with. She hasn't had a decisive win in months, the last being her Evolution victory over 5 months ago. Her wins have either been as a result of flukes, DQs, or against jobbers who had established losing streaks as it is.
The booking in the WWE is terrible overall, but let's not suddenly think that a "win streak" is suddenly being OverPowered. If anything, it's more like OverBooked.
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bog
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Post by bog on Mar 26, 2019 12:28:04 GMT -5
I think they have a good balance with her. The whole apologizing to the authority thing, tapping to Asuka, having Ronda save her from the Flair match...that kind of stuff is remembered by fans. Beating Liv Morgan in under a minute might not be lol. I see where you're coming from with her winning clean after taking beatdowns, but I think that's more giving fans what they want than making her OP. Now, if she wins the belt and "overcomes the odds" every title defense for months? Then we can talk about her booking getting a little wonky
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Post by abjordans on Mar 26, 2019 12:29:01 GMT -5
I feel people are far too focused on the power levels of various wrestlers just generally. Some users on this forum especially have some weird issue with someone being booked extremely strong. It's really odd. It's a far cry from years ago when this forum was mainly people complaining about 50/50 booking. It can work if written well which Lynch, for the most part, has been. Okada was OP during his title reigns and it led to the greatest title reign I've ever seen. Austin was OP at the height of his run. Hogan, Goldberg, etc. It comes down to the character and the writing but it can work and work extremely well. This is the way you made a star years ago and this is the way you can still make them now. There's a disconnect here. The "wrestler is OP" comments are more than "this guy is booked too strong", it all goes back to how it makes the other opponents look. If the opponents looked great while someone was booked crazy strong, the first wrestler wouldn't be called OP. A guy winning all the time doesn't mean someone is OP. For example, Strowman. Hypothetically let's say that there's a Strowman/Rush feud where Strowman's doing all of the big bully stuff he was doing. Ripping things down, destroying cars, flipping ambulances, that stuff. Say he's doing all of that to get Lio and the entire time Lio's running through the arena, cutting promos saying he's afraid, he's doing all of that, say it goes on for a month or so. Strowman eventually catches him and Lio let's out a big scream before Strowman punches him once and then Lio's stretchered out. In this case, Strowman's strength doesn't do anything negative to Lio. Strowman's this big monster but Lio gets over this way given he's showing his athleticism, promo and character skills, this helps him. This is how you work these type of stars. Both guys look great, it's successful. It's a feud done to benefit both guys not just one. Now say you did the Strowman/Lio feud where Lio didn't do any of that, it was just Strowman beating him down repeatedly with no offense from Lio, no promos, no escaping, nothing from him, ends with a whimper. That doesn't help anyone besides Strowman out. This is a feud built solely for Strowman only, Lio's just there. Now imagine that happening with everyone Strowman faced, guys where they looked bad when they entered a Strowman feud and only Strowman benefited from it. At that point you wouldn't want said wrestler to interact with Strowman because he makes the others look like crap given he's booked as too OP. He's got the big bully stuff he's doing but nobody benefits from his feud except him and they look worse afterwards. That's Strowman being "too OP" because his wins, strength, booking as a whole completely overpowers the other wrestlers for no point other than himself. You mentioned other wrestlers but I can point to you at least something they looked great in those times when these big names (Okada, Austin and such) did their thing.
When we say "someone is too OP" we're looking at every wrestler as a whole. We want every wrestler regardless of the feud to look great to some degree whether it's strength, promos, just something where every wrestler gets something off. They don't have to win every match but they have to at least bring something to the table. When they bring nothing to the table, what point should they be in that spot other than a jobber?
Okada's reign is someone who's booked mega-strong done right. He made his opponents look great. He's not receiving any of these comments. Austin, Austin made Vince look great, Rock made other look great, Hogan was from a different era and I don't remember much of his stuff, Goldberg's "this guy is OP guys" thing was part of his entire character so that's different entirely.
At the end of the day the "wrestler is OP" comments come down to one central thing: how does the opponent look?
So, who is Becky making look bad? Liv Morgan? Shouldn’t she squash Liv Morgan on the way to main eventing WM? Becky has matches with Charlotte, Asuka, etc and those women looked great in those matches. I just don’t get it and am genuinely confused what Lynch should be doing.
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Fundertaker
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Post by Fundertaker on Mar 26, 2019 12:36:41 GMT -5
Rather she be OP than "THE ODDS!" the John Cena curbstomped every other month.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 12:55:53 GMT -5
A few things.
Okay, here we go...yet another thread that's going to try to take a current 'hot streak' and turn it into something it really isn't. From the top! Alright, we gotta stop doing this "ok, here we go again-" thing when it comes to this stuff. The whole point of these threads are to benefit all wrestlers. Acting that way, that's trying to dismiss it without actually combating what people's points and opinions are. There's a lot of joke, anger and silly threads on this forum so these threads are some of the only ones that people have some legit discussions in. I get that people disagree but all the "well here we go-" and jokes about it, it looks as though as rather than commenting on posts people just can't so they go to something else. There's joke threads for jokes but when it comes to people wanting to see wrestlers doing well what's funny about that? We love these wrestlers and want them to do as well as possible.
Opponents looking like jokes goes hand to hand with guys being OP. As I said previously, had wrestlers looked great in their matches nobody would be saying someone is "OP." I think a large amount of this boils down to people not knowing what that term means. Someone winning all the time (and losing quickly) doesn't mean said wrestler is OP. When someone wins all the time and nobody else benefits from that wrestler doing that to the point where everyone always looks like goobers? We gotta talk about it. The purpose of a match and feud is to make everyone look good to do a degree. If you're not consistent with that then there's an issue.
Brock Lesnar is the number one OP guy on the roster. He's the first guy that we mentioned when we said "hey this guy is OP." I see what you're saying here but the question I have is, when will this stop with Becky? How long is too long because honestly right now no one on the roster can reasonable beat her. She's to a level that I can't even see Ronda beating her.
Nah, gotta disagree with this. If Becky's opponents can't beat her up when she's injured what chance do they have when she's fully healed?
The whole point of a wrestler being injured is for the heel to use their injury to their advantage to put more sympathy on the injured face. If you don't have that then you don't need the injury.
Here's what we're talking about when it comes with issues revolving about Becky. The fact Becky does all of this while being injured at times, don't you see that just shouldn't happen? If they want her to be sympathetic then yeah do the injury angle but if they want her to be a monster than just don't make her injured. Like, if you see an injured dude beat the crap out of a guy who's not injured, how strong do you think the first guy is when he's fully healed? There's no way that's a contest. Even if Becky's hunched over it's just bad booking. We don't need to be seeing that. There's a reason why Reigns and Ambrose from 2014-2018 rarely lose and when they did lose they were wearing bandages or tape most times. They have to find a way to have the heel get over on them hence why they bandaged them up. People forget that Reigns lost to Strowman that one time due to Reigns being injured prior. What happened afterwards is Strowman attacked Reigns backstage, ran into an ambulance door and took off so they overlooked Roman's lost. Point is, the bandages, injuries, they happen for a reason.
With Becky, the only thing her injury angle did was keep her out of matches. During interactions she was on top most of the time.
That's just, nah man. That's bad.
Charlotte's in a worse position as Charlotte hasn't had a single's win since November and that was against one of the IIconics, prior to that was September against Sonya. Becky's in a way better position than Charlotte and as for Ronda, we know what it is for her. Becky won the Rumble after having a match. That's crazy from a booking standpoint when you factor everything else, you gotta admit that. If you solely look at her feats, durability, stuff like that as a whole, man it's wild.
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Post by sunnytaker on Mar 26, 2019 13:04:58 GMT -5
Not seeing it. In her last two important matches, she’s tapped clean and gotten her ass kicked until Ronda bailed her out. She also had to swallow her pride and apologize to Steph and Trips. Not to mention hobbling around like a gimpy goober for months. And tonight is just a poor example. She got a roll-up bictorybiver Liv Morgan. It’s Liv Morgan for god’s sake. I want Becky to bring back some of her goofiness. But I think the idea that her Becky booked strong, is going to lead to a fan backlash, is just plain wrong. I think the goofiness will start coming back post mania if only because 1) she will have beaten rousey whose sense of humor appears to be microscopic unless she's making the jokes- so goofy becky going up against the BWOTP isn't the right fit for this feud. 2) becky can not keep the smile off her face whenever the crowd goes nuts for her so there's no way she is going to pull off the serious badlass nonstop and 3) becky can't help but be a goof, it's too much a part of her nature- her and Daniel bryan should have a corpse-off one of these days, first one who doesn't wins
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:06:44 GMT -5
So, who is Becky making look bad? Liv Morgan? Shouldn’t she squash Liv Morgan on the way to main eventing WM? Becky has matches with Charlotte, Asuka, etc and those women looked great in those matches. I just don’t get it and am genuinely confused what Lynch should be doing. I didn't even see Raw so I don't know what happened with her and Liv Morgan, I do know that everyone makes the Riott Squad look like jokes so I've got no comment on that. For the past 8 months Becky's made Charlotte look bad, she's made Ronda look bad on promos, anyone she interacts with just looked worse than her to a degree that there's no benefiting to those who aren't Becky. Like, when I read the "Charlotte is here OMG" and "OMG Charlotte might win" comments do you know what I think? I think "Bruh, she hasn't won in suuuuuuuuuuccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhh a long time, yall are paranoid. " You're saying that Charlotte looks great against Becky but nah, I disagree, Charlotte hasn't won a match since November and prior to that September and it was against some jobbers. Charlotte's keeping up in this storyline purely due to her character work. Her match ratio these past 8 months has been shitty. But me personally, as a major fan of Becky, I was able to overlook that.
I was able to overlook a lot of her booking...until the injury angle hit.
I never want to see an injured wrestler end up coming out on top most segments against fully healed wrestlers. At all. At that point it's like "man, you're too good because it's obvious you'll win when healed, where's the suspense" to me. When I saw Becky beating up Charlotte when Becky's injured, when I saw Becky standing on top most segments when she's injured and can barely stand (pun intended)? I threw up my hands, that doesn't make any sense. You're too good at that point, you're too good because the injuries are there to give the heel an opening so that when you're not injured, you can beat them and it'll make sense.
What they should have done is this...with Becky injured, just have Becky on the losing end of things, just taking all the damage, not coming out on top, just showing that even when injured Becky can take a beating and when she's fully healed she can beat ass. Then when Becky's healed? She can let loose and it'll be crazy. She can be injured as the crowd's chanting her name and she's standing up ready to fight again but still injured. She can do that without having to do this whole injury thing, without having a match. It's simple storytelling because that's what happens with most babyfaces when injured.
The injury angle just shouldn't have happened and if it did it could have been done far different because now my perspective isn't "Becky's that woman who can beat ass and even when times are bad for her, she can do it", it's "Becky's too damn good because they can't even beat her up when she's injured."
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 13:14:44 GMT -5
In the end I'd be ok with that, if they write it correctly which is just been WWE's big weakness lately the writing and the booking. But I don't want to see world beaters of course, not Kofi, not Becky. But I don't think Becky is OP at all just yet. I think she has a ways to go... I hope she doesn't get there at all tbh, as that would suck. These next 4 months for her are going to be important because it doesn't take much for this company to destroy someone's booking. Se could be HBK in terms of making her opponents look god tier or she could be Cena in a "wow, guy faced Cena and well they were trash."
The major difference is who people like. People give passes for those they like because they like them. It's like the Strowman thread where people gave passes for everything Strowman did because they were fans of his even though Strowman's booking made guys like Owens look horrible. Like how I gave passes to AJ during his one year run lol
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Mar 26, 2019 13:17:58 GMT -5
Look, I’m ok with people thinking Becky is overpowered. But god help you if you try to say she’s overly punny.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:18:39 GMT -5
These next 4 months for her are going to be important because it doesn't take much for this company to destroy someone's booking. Se could be HBK in terms of making her opponents look god tier or she could be Cena in a "wow, guy faced Cena and well they were trash."
The major difference is who people like. People give passes for those they like because they like them. It's like the Strowman thread where people gave passes for everything Strowman did because they were fans of his even though Strowman's booking made guys like Owens look horrible. Like how I gave passes to AJ during his one year run lol You admitted it, you see what we were saying because you see it happening with others lol. Like people think we suddenly don't like wrestlers when we bring up some of this stuff and that's not true. I'm a HUGE Becky fan but I'm a fan of most wrestlers. I don't want Becky to be having some of the bad booking that others have gotten, I want these wrestlers to have great booking, I want them all to look great at something. Even these lame dudes with bad booking like McIntyre, Corbin and Lashley I wish looked way better than they do. These threads are pro-wrestlers rather than being against them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:19:17 GMT -5
Lynch tapped clean months ago. If you cannot see her being beaten clean now then I think that's on you rather than the company.
Look overall I agree with you that Lynch has been pushed extremely strong recently. So has Kingston. Hell Balor beat ridiculous odds this week to get to Mania. Having an op wrestler is fine if the writing supports it.
The reason for the backlash I feel is that these threads seem to go in circles for pages on end where people repeat the same point and it gets tiresome for some people. This thread in particular felt like self-parody when I first saw it.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 13:27:29 GMT -5
Like how I gave passes to AJ during his one year run lol You admitted it, you see what we were saying because you see it happening with others lol. Like people think we suddenly don't like wrestlers when we bring up some of this stuff and that's not true. I'm a HUGE Becky fan but I'm a fan of most wrestlers. I don't want Becky to be having some of the bad booking that others have gotten, I want these wrestlers to have great booking, I want them all to look great at something. Even these lame dudes with bad booking like McIntyre, Corbin and Lashley I wish looked way better than they do. These threads are pro-wrestlers rather than being against them. Yea, I will openly admit I don't mind AJ run as champ because I like the guy and think he deserves it. That's my own bias but I can admit his feuds dragged way too long and when he did take L's they were flukes but he always proved superior in the end.
I like a lot of wrestlers but when discussing them I will put personal bias to the side whether I like them or dislike them if the discussion needs to be had. This is never an attack against them, more so looking at what they been doing, what they will do in the future and how that shit is going to play out. As I said Becky is not OP yet but if this continued through the summer she would be but in discussing her now she's def a notch above the rest as she should be BUT you have roll your eye moments at her. She was going to kick the dead carcass of Ronda on Social Media until the cops came to arrest her, the injury has done absolutely nothing to hamper her, shit like that is what's being seen
People shouldn't take it personal, it's a matter of discussion. If said person is your favorite wrestler, cool but be straight up because if you are being straight up you can see the facts in the discussion as opposed to saying nah you hate this person
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 13:29:55 GMT -5
These next 4 months for her are going to be important because it doesn't take much for this company to destroy someone's booking. Se could be HBK in terms of making her opponents look god tier or she could be Cena in a "wow, guy faced Cena and well they were trash."
The major difference is who people like. People give passes for those they like because they like them. It's like the Strowman thread where people gave passes for everything Strowman did because they were fans of his even though Strowman's booking made guys like Owens look horrible. Like how I gave passes to AJ during his one year run lol My issue with AJ is not even that he won a lot.That is fine. But is that he won 4 times in a row against the same guys. At one point it becomes less "AJ Is a Strong Champ" and more "These guys are chumps"
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 13:31:32 GMT -5
Lynch tapped clean months ago. If you cannot see her being beaten clean now then I think that's on you rather than the company. Look overall I agree with you that Lynch has been pushed extremely strong recently. So has Kingston. Hell Balor beat ridiculous odds this week to get to Mania. Having an op wrestler is fine if the writing supports it. Does the clean tap mean anything tho? Who is the company focused on more Becky or Asuka? This is a matter of perspective tho because you can get on creative for not hyping up Asuka or congratulate them for keeping Becky with her momentum despite the tap. Imo they clearly focused on Becky and the tap was minor in regards to her big story
Also yes, Kofi has been strong but that's been for a month. When talking OP, we are talking 6,8,12 months and further of the same "dominate" booking they have given said wrestler. If Kofi was whooping ass in gauntlets every month for 6 months he'd be called out on it.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 13:33:27 GMT -5
Like how I gave passes to AJ during his one year run lol My issue with AJ is not even that he won a lot.That is fine. But is that he won 4 times in a row against the same guys. At one point it becomes less "AJ Is a Strong Champ" and more "These guys are chumps" He essentially spent like 6 months feuding with the same 2 people and guys who you could make a case should been champ. They got AJ angry, he got pissed off and got himself DQ'd
AJ weakness is anger but in the end, they'd get fluke wins on AJ while AJ picks up a few dominate ones to close that chapter
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 13:35:22 GMT -5
My issue with AJ is not even that he won a lot.That is fine. But is that he won 4 times in a row against the same guys. At one point it becomes less "AJ Is a Strong Champ" and more "These guys are chumps" He essentially spent like 6 months feuding with the same 2 people and guys who you could make a case should been champ. They got AJ angry, he got pissed off and got himself DQ'd AJ weakness is anger but in the end, they'd get fluke wins on AJ while AJ picks up a few dominate ones to close that chapter
Pretty much it was my issue with his run , both stories seemed to be building for the heel to win ,except they lost again. It kinda bummed me
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Mar 26, 2019 13:35:48 GMT -5
The aces SHOULD be OP. That's the point. Like Futurama's whole thing when Bender became a wrestler where the promoter explained the most popular wrestler gets booked to win the most. This is what ypu do. Character gets hot. You have them win to make fans happy. Move on to a new babyface when needed or as the story dictates to have more top guys. I seriously would have hated for this mentality to be around when Austin was on the come-up. "Well, he's stunning guys up and down the roster, and the crowds are NUCLEAR for him, but man....he needs to lose more, look like a fool more, he needs to be on a level plane with all the other guys, otherwise, well, it looks like no one can beat him". It's a ridiculous, ludicrous mentality.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:37:00 GMT -5
The Becky who lost to Asuka isn't the same Becky who's beating down Charlotte and Ronda while she's injured. They changed her character some, added the injury angle, added the McMahons and we get "main event Becky." It is what it is. Yea, I will openly admit I don't mind AJ run as champ because I like the guy and think he deserves it. That's my own bias but I can admit his feuds dragged way too long and when he did take L's they were flukes but he always proved superior in the end.
I like a lot of wrestlers but when discussing them I will put personal bias to the side whether I like them or dislike them if the discussion needs to be had. This is never an attack against them, more so looking at what they been doing, what they will do in the future and how that shit is going to play out. As I said Becky is not OP yet but if this continued through the summer she would be but in discussing her now she's def a notch above the rest as she should be BUT you have roll your eye moments at her. She was going to kick the dead carcass of Ronda on Social Media until the cops came to arrest her, the injury has done absolutely nothing to hamper her, shit like that is what's being seen People shouldn't take it personal, it's a matter of discussion. If said person is your favorite wrestler, cool but be straight up because if you are being straight up you can see the facts in the discussion as opposed to saying nah you hate this person
Yeah that's what I'm saying. Like right now to me Becky's at the position where Strowman was before he faced the tag division. Just doing these crazy outrageous things where I think "uh, really?" but I roll with it because I'm seeing where it's going. She hasn't completely crossed over to where we need to have a major serious discussion yet but she's done things that you can bring up to where people say "well yeah, that did happen" so it's a crucial moment with her. Becky's done some stuff and right now we'll see how it shakes with her because these next 4 months will be something. If they're smart it'll work out but mind you, these people just did an injury angle with her. Who knows how it'll be. Me I don't put my personal feelings towards wrestlers into this because it's just an opinion. If a guy beats 10 dudes it doesn't matter how I feel about the guy because his feat translates to everyone else. That's what I mean by posting clips, quotes, facts because at the end of the day you can't dispute some pin or a feat. You can talk about your feelings but hell, it's not important to the grand scheme of things. Shit I'm a Becky fan but I'm debating against some of her booking. That says everything. I was propping Becky up against the Alexa Bliss fans on this forum lol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:39:08 GMT -5
I find it weird when this criticism comes up for presently popular characters. Like, maybe the strength of their booking is helping bolster their popularity. Why is that a bad thing? It was the same thing with Braun, he was most popular when he was crushing everything around him. Now he's just some generic Big Show expy. I have to agree. When they’re booked to lose, they’re automatically the biggest dumb dumb bitches on the planet, despite that being the norm for both faces and heels since the 80s, moreso the heels. The heels are supposed to look like dumb dumbs when they lose. But, if the faces are booked to actually win and show cunning, they’re automatically going to be turned on and become too powerful. (Which is actually the case 99% of the time for some weird ass reason honestly.) You then have this weird cycle of top guys and gals being booed because they win, which leads to the fans wanting a heel turn despite loving them in the first place, which then leads to some fans questioning Vince and his state of mind and ears, which leads to disinterest in that top guy/gal. It always happens, and it’s a weirdddd cycle when you see it happen. That’s just my take on it at least.
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