Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 13:39:16 GMT -5
The aces SHOULD be OP. That's the point. Like Futurama's whole thing when Bender became a wrestler where the promoter explained the most popular wrestler gets booked to win the most. This is what ypu do. Character gets hot. You have them win to make fans happy. Move on to a new babyface when needed or as the story dictates to have more top guys. I seriously would have hated for this mentality to be around when Austin was on the come-up. "Well, he's stunning guys up and down the roster, and the crowds are NUCLEAR for him, but man....he needs to lose more, look like a fool more, he needs to be on a level plane with all the other guys, otherwise, well, it looks like no one can beat him". It's a ridiculous, ludicrous mentality. I think it helps both Rock and Steve Austin had short runs. Reigns and especially Cena were much worse and much longer "offenders".
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 13:39:54 GMT -5
The Becky who lost to Asuka isn't the same Becky who's beating down Charlotte and Ronda while she's injured. They changed her character some, added the injury angle, added the McMahons and we get "main event Becky." It is what it is. Yea, I will openly admit I don't mind AJ run as champ because I like the guy and think he deserves it. That's my own bias but I can admit his feuds dragged way too long and when he did take L's they were flukes but he always proved superior in the end.
I like a lot of wrestlers but when discussing them I will put personal bias to the side whether I like them or dislike them if the discussion needs to be had. This is never an attack against them, more so looking at what they been doing, what they will do in the future and how that shit is going to play out. As I said Becky is not OP yet but if this continued through the summer she would be but in discussing her now she's def a notch above the rest as she should be BUT you have roll your eye moments at her. She was going to kick the dead carcass of Ronda on Social Media until the cops came to arrest her, the injury has done absolutely nothing to hamper her, shit like that is what's being seen People shouldn't take it personal, it's a matter of discussion. If said person is your favorite wrestler, cool but be straight up because if you are being straight up you can see the facts in the discussion as opposed to saying nah you hate this person
Yeah that's what I'm saying. Like right now to me Becky's at the position where Strowman was before he faced the tag division. Just doing these crazy outrageous things where I think "uh, really?" but I roll with it because I'm seeing where it's going. She hasn't completely crossed over to where we need to have a major serious discussion yet but she's done things that you can bring up to where people say "well yeah, that did happen" so it's a crucial moment with her. Becky's done some stuff and right now we'll see how it shakes with her because these next 4 months will be something. If they're smart it'll work out but mind you, these people just did an injury angle with her. Who knows how it'll be. Me I don't put my personal feelings towards wrestlers into this because it's just an opinion. If a guy beats 10 dudes it doesn't matter how I feel about the guy because his feat translates to everyone else. That's what I mean by posting clips, quotes, facts because at the end of the day you can't dispute some pin or a feat. You can talk about your feelings but hell, it's not important to the grand scheme of things. Shit I'm a Becky fan but I'm debating against some of her booking. That says everything. I was propping Becky up against the Alexa Bliss fans on this forum lol. At the end of the day people take offense to it instead of actually debating it
This is one of the only times there can be a real discussion instead of a pissing match but it doesn't seem to be that way lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:45:27 GMT -5
At the end of the day people take offense to it instead of actually debating it
This is one of the only times there can be a real discussion instead of a pissing match but it doesn't seem to be that way lol
Yep, it's easy to post your opinion than debate by you disagree.
Either way I'll take an actual discussion over an "angry thread" any day. Seems like after every event there's at least 6 threads towards how angry people are what happened unless it's NXT. People can do those but nah, that's not me. I get nothing from those threads. These though? I can see others point of views and I can see how and why people agree or disagree with what's said and as an overall experience it's better as a learning tool.
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repomark
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Post by repomark on Mar 26, 2019 13:50:53 GMT -5
I actually think she has been underpushed (to a certain extent) to be honest. Given just how over she is, losing to Asuka was odd (and potentially genius if they play it right) and the perpetual limp hurt her in the run in. But I will be with the 70,000 cheering when she makes Ronnie tap.
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Post by Cela on Mar 26, 2019 13:52:08 GMT -5
She's the face in a build to mania. She has lost or been weak at times. Yes, the crutch beat downs were incredibly dumb, but otherwise she's been a relatively normal face building to the main event of mania.
It's not like she's beating 5 people back to back in a gauntlet. She rolled up Liv Morgan. The Eric Rowan of the Riott Squad.
Hell, she got the hell kicked out of her by Charlotte in the one legged match before Ronda did a weird posture run in before walking backstage like she was attempting to hold a piece of paper between her butt cheeks. Ronda walks weird.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 13:53:27 GMT -5
I actually think she has been underpushed to be honest. Given just how over she is, losing to Asuka was odd (and potentially genius if they play it right) and the perpetual limp hurt her in the run in. But I will be with the 70,000 cheering when she makes Ronnie tap. To be fair, if she hadn’t lost to asuka, there would for sure be backlash against her as Asuka’s fan base is just as passionate for her as they are for Becky.
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Post by abjordans on Mar 26, 2019 14:00:42 GMT -5
The aces SHOULD be OP. That's the point. Like Futurama's whole thing when Bender became a wrestler where the promoter explained the most popular wrestler gets booked to win the most. This is what ypu do. Character gets hot. You have them win to make fans happy. Move on to a new babyface when needed or as the story dictates to have more top guys. I seriously would have hated for this mentality to be around when Austin was on the come-up. "Well, he's stunning guys up and down the roster, and the crowds are NUCLEAR for him, but man....he needs to lose more, look like a fool more, he needs to be on a level plane with all the other guys, otherwise, well, it looks like no one can beat him". It's a ridiculous, ludicrous mentality. This right here. Otherwise you are on a damn hamster wheel.
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Post by Cela on Mar 26, 2019 14:00:48 GMT -5
I actually think she has been underpushed to be honest. Given just how over she is, losing to Asuka was odd (and potentially genius if they play it right) and the perpetual limp hurt her in the run in. But I will be with the 70,000 cheering when she makes Ronnie tap. To be fair, if she hadn’t lost to asuka, there would for sure be backlash against her as Asuka’s fan base is just as passionate for her as they are for Becky. And if anything, Asuka is extremely OP. The only times she looks close to vulnerable are against Charlotte Reigns and people using James Ellsworth as a pokemon.
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Post by abjordans on Mar 26, 2019 14:06:53 GMT -5
So, who is Becky making look bad? Liv Morgan? Shouldn’t she squash Liv Morgan on the way to main eventing WM? Becky has matches with Charlotte, Asuka, etc and those women looked great in those matches. I just don’t get it and am genuinely confused what Lynch should be doing. I didn't even see Raw so I don't know what happened with her and Liv Morgan, I do know that everyone makes the Riott Squad look like jokes so I've got no comment on that. For the past 8 months Becky's made Charlotte look bad, she's made Ronda look bad on promos, anyone she interacts with just looked worse than her to a degree that there's no benefiting to those who aren't Becky. Like, when I read the "Charlotte is here OMG" and "OMG Charlotte might win" comments do you know what I think? I think "Bruh, she hasn't won in suuuuuuuuuuccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhh a long time, yall are paranoid. " You're saying that Charlotte looks great against Becky but nah, I disagree, Charlotte hasn't won a match since November and prior to that September and it was against some jobbers. Charlotte's keeping up in this storyline purely due to her character work. Her match ratio these past 8 months has been shitty. But me personally, as a major fan of Becky, I was able to overlook that.
I was able to overlook a lot of her booking...until the injury angle hit.
I never want to see an injured wrestler end up coming out on top most segments against fully healed wrestlers. At all. At that point it's like "man, you're too good because it's obvious you'll win when healed, where's the suspense" to me. When I saw Becky beating up Charlotte when Becky's injured, when I saw Becky standing on top most segments when she's injured and can barely stand (pun intended)? I threw up my hands, that doesn't make any sense. You're too good at that point, you're too good because the injuries are there to give the heel an opening so that when you're not injured, you can beat them and it'll make sense.
What they should have done is this...with Becky injured, just have Becky on the losing end of things, just taking all the damage, not coming out on top, just showing that even when injured Becky can take a beating and when she's fully healed she can beat ass. Then when Becky's healed? She can let loose and it'll be crazy. She can be injured as the crowd's chanting her name and she's standing up ready to fight again but still injured. She can do that without having to do this whole injury thing, without having a match. It's simple storytelling because that's what happens with most babyfaces when injured.
The injury angle just shouldn't have happened and if it did it could have been done far different because now my perspective isn't "Becky's that woman who can beat ass and even when times are bad for her, she can do it", it's "Becky's too damn good because they can't even beat her up when she's injured."
But, in the post you responded to me on before this, you said it doesn’t matter if they beat people if it is competitive and the other person looks good. So, Becky has competitive matches where Charlotte is seen as her equal who looks strong in defeat, how is that not making Charlotte look good? In this post you say Charlotte looks bad simply from losing. That contradicts what you were saying earlier. You said it didn’t matter if Austin won the matches, people still looked good. But, Charlotte looks bad just for losing to Becky, even though they are highly competitive matches. So, which way do you want it? And that doesn’t even get into the point that if Charlotte beat Becky people would be going INSANE. The only reason people didn’t completely lose it when Asuka beat Becky was because Asuka is champion and Becky came back and won the Rumble.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 14:25:51 GMT -5
But, in the post you responded to me on before this, you said it doesn’t matter if they beat people if it is competitive and the other person looks good. So, Becky has competitive matches where Charlotte is seen as her equal who looks strong in defeat, how is that not making Charlotte look good? In this post you say Charlotte looks bad simply from losing. That contradicts what you were saying earlier. You said it didn’t matter if Austin won the matches, people still looked good. But, Charlotte looks bad just for losing to Becky, even though they are highly competitive matches. So, which way do you want it? And that doesn’t even get into the point that if Charlotte beat Becky people would be going INSANE. The only reason people didn’t completely lose it when Asuka beat Becky was because Asuka is champion and Becky came back and won the Rumble. What I've underlined is the point I'm making. You're saying Charlotte looked good but that's definitely not what happened. I'd agree with you if I thought she looked good but she did not look good during then. You're leaving out some things.
Charlotte as a whole got worse when she first feuded with Becky in 2018 from not only a win ratio standpoint but also from a character standpoint as well. She lost each time and never did any of those times once Becky turned heel did I think "ok, Charlotte might actually get her here." Mind you Charlotte was the babyface then, you remember the reactions to that. Once Charlotte turned heel again and became the Mad Queen, that's when she really leveled up. Like, at Survivor Series against Ronda, that's when Charlotte leveled up. During the TLC match with Asuka and Becky, that's when she leveled up again. Those other post-Summerslam matches against Becky, that feud just didn't do anything for her because to me it wasn't competitive to a degree that I think "man, Charlotte might get this" in promos, interactions, matches, it was more of a "well, Becky's gonna get outta this somehow what will she do" but more than the matches we're talking about the feud itself. Even the fans reacted to Charlotte negatively, online commenters reacted to Charlotte negatively, as a whole everything was going downhill for Charlotte then given she was being that babyface who "missed her best friend Becky" and well, you remember. To you Charlotte looked great but to me? Nah, she didn't. I'm seeing losses, I'm seeing fan reaction decrease for her, I'm seeing her character get worse, I'm seeing her shine go down. That's what happens to people when booking doesn't work right because characters aren't supposed to lose that. Charlotte coming at WM34 was in a much better position as a whole compared to Charlotte in the beginning of that 2018 Becky feud.
That's really the crux of this "is OP" thing, wrestlers looking worse compared to how they looked prior. Charlotte looked worse during that Becky feud and only after she turned heel did she start elevating to a new level again.
Austin, he made guys look good. Like stated there was McMahon, Rock, Foley, HHH, anyone he faced including the Stooges looked great to a degree because no matter if they lost their matches their reaction and shine didn't decrease. The Stooges, we couldn't wait to see those dudes get beat up. You can't say that about Charlotte during that period where she was the face and Becky as a heel. I think you're only thinking about the actual matches themselves rather than the entire feud around them because it was controversial as they were having Charlotte try to be the face then and many people felt it was fake, the crowd kept cheering for Becky and that's when things changed from "ok Charlotte is that woman" to "ok, let's give the torch to Becky."
Lastly, you're mentioning if Charlotte beat Becky, that's not the point. Charlotte didn't have to beat Becky, Charlotte just had to gain something from that feud. She gained nothing from it until she turned heel. Hell there were even dirtsheet reports about the company stating that the Becky feud (when Charlotte was a face and Becky was the heel) actually hurt Charlotte and only did her heel turn level her back up.
I just don't see why you think Charlotte looked great against Becky when Charlotte was the babyface losing reactions, matches, fan support and her shine while Becky kept gaining hers. Charlotte's 2018 SDL babyface run was terrible. You remember how the crowd was pissed at her man lol.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 26, 2019 14:35:33 GMT -5
At the end of the day people take offense to it instead of actually debating it
This is one of the only times there can be a real discussion instead of a pissing match but it doesn't seem to be that way lol
Yep, it's easy to post your opinion than debate by you disagree.
Either way I'll take an actual discussion over an "angry thread" any day. Seems like after every event there's at least 6 threads towards how angry people are what happened unless it's NXT. People can do those but nah, that's not me. I get nothing from those threads. These though? I can see others point of views and I can see how and why people agree or disagree with what's said and as an overall experience it's better as a learning tool.
Exactly, it is more fun to converse back and forth about a topic as opposed to being snippy
Threads on the WWE section can be hit and miss (which is why I did the Chappelle Show thread for levity) but sometimes would like to discuss shit as opposed to give out about something we don't like or even heavily praise something we do like
Discussions can be fun when interactive
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 15:05:46 GMT -5
Lynch tapped clean months ago. If you cannot see her being beaten clean now then I think that's on you rather than the company. Look overall I agree with you that Lynch has been pushed extremely strong recently. So has Kingston. Hell Balor beat ridiculous odds this week to get to Mania. Having an op wrestler is fine if the writing supports it. Does the clean tap mean anything tho? Who is the company focused on more Becky or Asuka? This is a matter of perspective tho because you can get on creative for not hyping up Asuka or congratulate them for keeping Becky with her momentum despite the tap. Imo they clearly focused on Becky and the tap was minor in regards to her big story Also yes, Kofi has been strong but that's been for a month. When talking OP, we are talking 6,8,12 months and further of the same "dominate" booking they have given said wrestler. If Kofi was whooping ass in gauntlets every month for 6 months he'd be called out on it.
I mean her tapping clean does when the conversation is about how she appears like she cannot lose. Ignoring it leaves a huge hole in the conversation. Yes, it was minor overall because the major story this year is about Becky, not Asuka. Becky getting hot does not excuse that they've done nothing with Asuka since but that's hardly Becky's fault. In the end, you may have a different tolerance for an OP character than others. I would have loved to see Braun kick ass for a few more years destroying people. Undertaker made a career out of it. Seems we just want different things out of our wrestling. I'm fine with OP characters so long as they're written well and are interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 15:16:11 GMT -5
I mean her tapping clean does when the conversation is about how she appears like she cannot lose. Ignoring it leaves a huge hole in the conversation. Yes, it was minor overall because the major story this year is about Becky, not Asuka. Becky getting hot does not excuse that they've done nothing with Asuka since but that's hardly Becky's fault. In the end, you may have a different tolerance for an OP character than others. I would have loved to see Braun kick ass for a few more years destroying people. Undertaker made a career out of it. Seems we just want different things out of our wrestling. I'm fine with OP characters so long as they're written well and are interesting. When we say guys are OP, we're not factoring Taker into this. Mind you, Taker wasn't outsmarting, outrunning and completely destroying people. He was getting his wins but Taker had weaknesses the opponents could abuse. Taker, in most feuds, wasn't the aggressor. He dealt with what the opponent was doing, caught up to them and whooped their ass. The opponent could get their promos off while Taker didn't say much, the opponents could be entertaining, they could outrun him, they could taunt him, they could do a ton of stuff before Taker rolled around. Taker was great because given his supernatural skills he could just pop up when needed.
Strowman...dude was the aggressor. Strowman outsmarted smart heels like The Miz, he was outrunning Cruiserweights like Kalisto, he was outpowering everyone on the roster, he shut up promos just by threatening all the heels mid-promo, he was aggressive, he made guys look bad. That's just far different from Taker because Taker he didn't need to do much. Strowman, man dude was one of a kind.
The big difference between us and you are when we mention OP guys, we're not doing it solely for the OP guy, we're looking at the Kalitos, the KOs, those guys because they need help when everything of theirs is shut down. These threads are less about the character in the OP but more about who they face because if you get everything shut down then what can you do? At that point they gotta pray their next feud is with someone who can build them up since they need a lot of building. Yeah it's entertaining at times, Strowman was entertaining but I'm looking at the guy he crushed and thinking "damn what do you do next?" Owens, that guy's had some booking issues but that Strowman feud might have been his worst one.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Mar 26, 2019 15:34:33 GMT -5
I mean her tapping clean does when the conversation is about how she appears like she cannot lose. Ignoring it leaves a huge hole in the conversation. Yes, it was minor overall because the major story this year is about Becky, not Asuka. Becky getting hot does not excuse that they've done nothing with Asuka since but that's hardly Becky's fault. In the end, you may have a different tolerance for an OP character than others. I would have loved to see Braun kick ass for a few more years destroying people. Undertaker made a career out of it. Seems we just want different things out of our wrestling. I'm fine with OP characters so long as they're written well and are interesting. When we say guys are OP, we're not factoring Taker into this. Mind you, Taker wasn't outsmarting, outrunning and completely destroying people. He was getting his wins but Taker had weaknesses the opponents could abuse. Taker, in most feuds, wasn't the aggressor. He dealt with what the opponent was doing, caught up to them and whooped their ass. The opponent could get their promos off while Taker didn't say much, the opponents could be entertaining, they could outrun him, they could taunt him, they could do a ton of stuff before Taker rolled around. Taker was great because given his supernatural skills he could just pop up when needed.
Strowman...dude was the aggressor. Strowman outsmarted smart heels like The Miz, he was outrunning Cruiserweights like Kalisto, he was outpowering everyone on the roster, he shut up promos just by threatening all the heels mid-promo, he was aggressive, he made guys look bad. That's just far different from Taker because Taker he didn't need to do much. Strowman, man dude was one of a kind.
The big difference between us and you are when we mention OP guys, we're not doing it solely for the OP guy, we're looking at the Kalitos, the KOs, those guys because they need help when everything of theirs is shut down. These threads are less about the character in the OP but more about who they face because if you get everything shut down then what can you do? At that point they gotta pray their next feud is with someone who can build them up since they need a lot of building. Yeah it's entertaining at times, Strowman was entertaining but I'm looking at the guy he crushed and thinking "damn what do you do next?" Owens, that guy's had some booking issues but that Strowman feud might have been his worst one.
And that's nice and all, but flat out? Those guys aren't the focus. The people that ARE the focus need to look strong, full stop. Braun can't do that if he's losing on some random meaningless Raw well....just because it was that guy's turn to win this week. That's not, and shouldn't be, how it works. You make your focused on stars look strong, and you build the other guys at a more conservative pace because you're not putting a ton on them at that moment. Saying "Well, Strowman wins a lot, so he can afford to lose to Zack Ryder this week cause guy's got it rough" is a bass-ackward way of looking at it, if Braun's the guy bringing in the money.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 26, 2019 15:42:20 GMT -5
What? Where did I say Strowman stopped being over because he's too OP? Nowhere in my post did I say that. Why do you keep making false statements? Man dude,just block me and be done,I can even awnser you something without some accusation. None of my statement are false. The way you made your post makes it seem like you lumped the AJ Styles OP booking with the Braun,the whole context of this thread makes it seens like Braun being OP was an issue to his overness so I just wante to add a note about it. But serious you are into some deep paranoia stuff. Both of you, stop it. Now. And kn, you need to go re-read the post you went off on, there was no need for that response.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 26, 2019 15:46:45 GMT -5
In fact, I think everyone who has posted more than twice in this thread needs to go find other threads and stay out of this one
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Mar 26, 2019 15:47:57 GMT -5
If anything, Becky is UP!
As in near the top.
About to main event WrestleMANia!
There is a break for levity.
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Dub H
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Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,424
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 15:52:08 GMT -5
In fact, I think everyone who has posted more than twice in this thread needs to go find other threads and stay out of this one It was me and kn , no need to punish the thread for the shit we done,the dicussion has been pretty productive and nice otherwise.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 26, 2019 16:26:19 GMT -5
And this, folks, is why we can't have nice things.
Because the IWC is not one person with one opinion, it's not the hive mind that it's so often referred to as.
Half of us want consistent pushes and clean victories for people, half of us think people become OP when they get that. And that's just one contentious point.
WWE has no chance of giving us what we want, because we don't know what we want.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Mar 26, 2019 16:34:43 GMT -5
And this, folks, is why we can't have nice things. Because the IWC is not one person with one opinion, it's not the hive mind that it's so often referred to as. Half of us want consistent pushes and clean victories for people, half of us think people become OP when they get that. And that's just one contentious point. WWE has no chance of giving us what we want, because we don't know what we want. I said this two years ago. "Wrestling fans are less like a hivemind and more like the weather. That the stormy Jinder days have given way to sunny Jinder days isn't surprising." In the case of The Man, the opposite could be said "Wrestling fans are less like a hivemind and more like the weather. That the sunny Becky days have given way to stormy Becky days isn't surprising."
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