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Post by Tenshigure on Mar 26, 2019 16:43:03 GMT -5
Alright, we gotta stop doing this "ok, here we go again-" thing when it comes to this stuff. The whole point of these threads are to benefit all wrestlers. Acting that way, that's trying to dismiss it without actually combating what people's points and opinions are. You say that...and yet you quoted my entire response which was a direct response to those points and opinions. I can understand if someone's not actually articulating their disagreement, but invalidating a response because it going against what the thread's original contention was in the first place renders the discussion as a whole completely irrelevant. The big thing in contention in ALL of these 'OP' threads is where the line of 'booked well' and 'booked overpowered' is drawn. Disagreeing with the thought that one of the stars of the company has yet to reach that level of being too much is where this contention is, and I'd rather people look at both sides instead of the perpetual echo chamber we always seem to end up in around here. Counterpoint: the Riott Squad has NEVER won any of their respective feuds or felt like a threat of any kind since their debut on the main roster. Sure, they may have gotten a win here or there, but they are the female enhancement talent that has been Ziggler'd into what little they mean in wins and losses. Using them as an example of one person being booked too strong is a poor one in that case. Now, if Becky were taking out the "stronger" members of the roster like they were nothing (ie Asuka, Nia Jax, Sasha Banks, etc.), MAYBE we could be discussing how OP she is. Strowman straight-up destroyed the entire Raw tag division this time last year (not to mention being the one eliminating EVERYONE except for Roman in the Elimination Chamber that year), and there's very little room to argue his booking was OP at that point. You're asking a hypothetical about something that hasn't even happened yet (her being fully healed from her injury). She has only had THREE matches since the injury, including the Royal Rumble, Fastlane (where she only won because Ronda attacked her), and last night's Raw. If she were going through the same trials Kofi has on SDL and still overcoming then we'd have something to discuss, but the numbers game, a DQ, and a jobber doesn't make her booking suddenly OP. ...which is exactly what's been going on. Had she not been injured, the entire story they've been telling leading into this year's WrestleMania wouldn't have taken place. Charlotte is only in the mix BECAUSE she refused to get medically cleared and Vince felt her apology wasn't enough. Had she came out the other end of the Royal Rumble clean they'd have something entirely different driving the feud. They're using it as a sympathy device to keep people on her side (because they don't think she can do it on her own). They aren't building her as a monster, that role is being fulfilled by Ronda. Lynch's entire booking has been focused not on her physical strength, but her heart. They WANT her to be sympathetic because they're leaning into the curve of her never giving up, never quitting at the detriment of her continued injuries. I would not be shocked in the slightest if they pull an Armbar/Figure Eight at the same time on her at some point in the match, but nevertheless yes she is 'overcoming the odds,' but not to an extent I feel is yet in the overpowered range yet. She still has ended up on her back plenty of times, case in point: Again, they're playing into this narrative deliberately because they wanted to add that additional disadvantage to the face. Making her completely useless during these interactions would make the whole thing backfire on the face they're trying to build. Letting her still have that heart to fight for what she feels she rightfully deserves (which of course she does since she won the Rumble) does not suddenly make her as a character 'Overpowered'. Well yeah...the narrative being told is Becky fought with everything in her to get the shot she was getting, INCLUDING winning the Rumble for a shot at the title at WrestleMania. Instead, Charlotte has been hand-picked by the Not-Authority via nepotism at this point to face Ronda in the main event. To get her into the match again, Ronda deliberately jumped in and smacked Lynch when Charlotte had their match at Fastlane all but won (and the majority of that match was Charlotte trying to further injure her). Again, if she were OP, she'd have pinned/tapped Charlotte clean. That didn't happen, she got 'lucky,' and so she's back in the match. Wild? Perhaps. But not 'OP'. Compare her to Kofi (repeatedly beating multiple guys in a single night), Lesnar (barely ever registers his opponents not named Roman), Strowman (when he's not in 'lil bitch mode'), or any of the others who are accused as such, and she doesn't even come close.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 17:32:53 GMT -5
And this, folks, is why we can't have nice things. Because the IWC is not one person with one opinion, it's not the hive mind that it's so often referred to as. Half of us want consistent pushes and clean victories for people, half of us think people become OP when they get that. And that's just one contentious point. WWE has no chance of giving us what we want, because we don't know what we want. I said this two years ago. "Wrestling fans are less like a hivemind and more like the weather. That the stormy Jinder days have given way to sunny Jinder days isn't surprising." In the case of The Man, the opposite could be said "Wrestling fans are less like a hivemind and more like the weather. That the sunny Becky days have given way to stormy Becky days isn't surprising." did you say it to the smooth beat of bongos?
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Post by abjordans on Mar 26, 2019 17:47:00 GMT -5
But, in the post you responded to me on before this, you said it doesn’t matter if they beat people if it is competitive and the other person looks good. So, Becky has competitive matches where Charlotte is seen as her equal who looks strong in defeat, how is that not making Charlotte look good? In this post you say Charlotte looks bad simply from losing. That contradicts what you were saying earlier. You said it didn’t matter if Austin won the matches, people still looked good. But, Charlotte looks bad just for losing to Becky, even though they are highly competitive matches. So, which way do you want it? And that doesn’t even get into the point that if Charlotte beat Becky people would be going INSANE. The only reason people didn’t completely lose it when Asuka beat Becky was because Asuka is champion and Becky came back and won the Rumble. What I've underlined is the point I'm making. You're saying Charlotte looked good but that's definitely not what happened. I'd agree with you if I thought she looked good but she did not look good during then. You're leaving out some things.
Charlotte as a whole got worse when she first feuded with Becky in 2018 from not only a win ratio standpoint but also from a character standpoint as well. She lost each time and never did any of those times once Becky turned heel did I think "ok, Charlotte might actually get her here." Mind you Charlotte was the babyface then, you remember the reactions to that. Once Charlotte turned heel again and became the Mad Queen, that's when she really leveled up. Like, at Survivor Series against Ronda, that's when Charlotte leveled up. During the TLC match with Asuka and Becky, that's when she leveled up again. Those other post-Summerslam matches against Becky, that feud just didn't do anything for her because to me it wasn't competitive to a degree that I think "man, Charlotte might get this" in promos, interactions, matches, it was more of a "well, Becky's gonna get outta this somehow what will she do" but more than the matches we're talking about the feud itself. Even the fans reacted to Charlotte negatively, online commenters reacted to Charlotte negatively, as a whole everything was going downhill for Charlotte then given she was being that babyface who "missed her best friend Becky" and well, you remember. To you Charlotte looked great but to me? Nah, she didn't. I'm seeing losses, I'm seeing fan reaction decrease for her, I'm seeing her character get worse, I'm seeing her shine go down. That's what happens to people when booking doesn't work right because characters aren't supposed to lose that. Charlotte coming at WM34 was in a much better position as a whole compared to Charlotte in the beginning of that 2018 Becky feud.
That's really the crux of this "is OP" thing, wrestlers looking worse compared to how they looked prior. Charlotte looked worse during that Becky feud and only after she turned heel did she start elevating to a new level again.
Austin, he made guys look good. Like stated there was McMahon, Rock, Foley, HHH, anyone he faced including the Stooges looked great to a degree because no matter if they lost their matches their reaction and shine didn't decrease. The Stooges, we couldn't wait to see those dudes get beat up. You can't say that about Charlotte during that period where she was the face and Becky as a heel. I think you're only thinking about the actual matches themselves rather than the entire feud around them because it was controversial as they were having Charlotte try to be the face then and many people felt it was fake, the crowd kept cheering for Becky and that's when things changed from "ok Charlotte is that woman" to "ok, let's give the torch to Becky."
Lastly, you're mentioning if Charlotte beat Becky, that's not the point. Charlotte didn't have to beat Becky, Charlotte just had to gain something from that feud. She gained nothing from it until she turned heel. Hell there were even dirtsheet reports about the company stating that the Becky feud (when Charlotte was a face and Becky was the heel) actually hurt Charlotte and only did her heel turn level her back up.
I just don't see why you think Charlotte looked great against Becky when Charlotte was the babyface losing reactions, matches, fan support and her shine while Becky kept gaining hers. Charlotte's 2018 SDL babyface run was terrible. You remember how the crowd was pissed at her man lol.
Because I fundamentally don’t agree those matches hurt Charlotte in anyway. She had the sweat equity to be able to lose those matches without it taking her down a peg. And I don’t Really buy that either of them were being presented as “this is the heel, this is the face”. They were just two characters out against each other to see who the best was. I can’t remember all the details of what they were doing back in the summer, but Becky was just acting pissed off she wasn’t getting what she thought she deserved moreso than acting like a classic heel. Charlotte was able to afford losses to help bring Becky up, losing to Becky didn’t hurt Charlotte.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 17:50:05 GMT -5
I will just comment that Becky was DEFINITELY a heel.
She said the I BLAME YOU PEOPLE promo, the commentators,interviewers and everyone kept saying she betrayed the years long friendship with Charlotte.
they kept trying to present Charlotte in this sad devastated state from being betrayed.
in the match Becky acted cowardly when Charlotte started to recover ,which is also a very heel move.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 26, 2019 18:10:58 GMT -5
I will just comment that Becky was DEFINITELY a heel. She said the I BLAME YOU PEOPLE promo, the commentators,interviewers and everyone kept saying she betrayed the years long friendship with Charlotte. they kept trying to present Charlotte in this sad devastated state from being betrayed. in the match Becky acted cowardly when Charlotte started to recover ,which is also a very heel move. I didn't read the whole thread, are people still seriously debating this? She tried to walk out of a match with her title for f***'s sake. I know she went antihero face mere weeks possibly days later but from the turn until at least the end of the match where she twatted Charlotte with the belt she was a heel, just one that was getting cheered.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 18:32:54 GMT -5
I will just comment that Becky was DEFINITELY a heel. She said the I BLAME YOU PEOPLE promo, the commentators,interviewers and everyone kept saying she betrayed the years long friendship with Charlotte. they kept trying to present Charlotte in this sad devastated state from being betrayed. in the match Becky acted cowardly when Charlotte started to recover ,which is also a very heel move. I didn't read the whole thread, are people still seriously debating this? She tried to walk out of a match with her title for f***'s sake. I know she went antihero face mere weeks possibly days later but from the turn until at least the end of the match where she twatted Charlotte with the belt she was a heel, just one that was getting cheered. It was literally in the post above mine didn't quite it because it was too big. But yeh there is no way she wasn't a heel. You can argue Charlotte wasn't a face but that is just because of bad writing
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 26, 2019 18:37:46 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread, are people still seriously debating this? She tried to walk out of a match with her title for f***'s sake. I know she went antihero face mere weeks possibly days later but from the turn until at least the end of the match where she twatted Charlotte with the belt she was a heel, just one that was getting cheered. It was literally in the post above mine didn't quite it because it was too big. But yeh there is no way she wasn't a heel. You can argue Charlotte wasn't a face but that is just because of bad writing Strangely, I almost completely forgot about that but yeah, you’re both right. Like, it was admirable how much they really wanted her to be a heel and did the “right” things to make that happen but man, nobody was buying it. It was staggering.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 18:41:26 GMT -5
It was literally in the post above mine didn't quite it because it was too big. But yeh there is no way she wasn't a heel. You can argue Charlotte wasn't a face but that is just because of bad writing Strangely, I almost completely forgot about that but yeah, you’re both right. Like, it was admirable how much they really wanted her to be a heel and did the “right” things to make that happen but man, nobody was buying it. It was staggering. Not only Becky was much more likeable,the idea that ANYONE would think Charlotte was in the right by being in the match is kinda blind.( she even stole the pin)
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Mar 26, 2019 18:44:53 GMT -5
Strangely, I almost completely forgot about that but yeah, you’re both right. Like, it was admirable how much they really wanted her to be a heel and did the “right” things to make that happen but man, nobody was buying it. It was staggering. Not only Becky was much more likeable,the idea that ANYONE would think Charlotte was in the right by being in the match is kinda blind.( she even stole the pin) Exactly. She was given a shot to be put in the match for no real reason and beat Carmella and like you said, she stole the pin from Becky. I was just in awe at how loud that crowd was at the time. The “You Deserve it” chants had me ROLLING.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 18:48:50 GMT -5
I will just comment that Becky was DEFINITELY a heel. She said the I BLAME YOU PEOPLE promo, the commentators,interviewers and everyone kept saying she betrayed the years long friendship with Charlotte. they kept trying to present Charlotte in this sad devastated state from being betrayed. in the match Becky acted cowardly when Charlotte started to recover ,which is also a very heel move. Yeah, she was definitely supposed to be seen as the heel from SummerSlam through at least Evolution. Insulting the fans, attacking Charlotte from behind, trying to walk out of their matches, getting herself DQed, Cole calling her fans a cult, that time she picked on Lana (a face) while she was going through a rough time with the Milwaukee stuff... Obviously it's not the case now, but I really didn't get the arguments why she wasn't a heel at the time. When she lead the invasion on Raw and got her face busted open by Nia was when they decided to turn her back into a straight up face IMO.
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Post by abjordans on Mar 26, 2019 18:50:47 GMT -5
Strangely, I almost completely forgot about that but yeah, you’re both right. Like, it was admirable how much they really wanted her to be a heel and did the “right” things to make that happen but man, nobody was buying it. It was staggering. Not only Becky was much more likeable,the idea that ANYONE would think Charlotte was in the right by being in the match is kinda blind.( she even stole the pin) I can’t remember all the details of every promo they did back then, but the people wanted Becky and they got her, she won. And if you go through the history of this board, all that has been talked about since then was how Charlotte is too protected, Charlotte is too overbooked, Charlotte gets nepotism, Charleston gets all the opportunities, Charlotte gets Becky’s spotlight, Charlotte gets unnecessarily inserted into everything. And now many of the same people I know for facts I read posting that are saying Becky is too OP and it has came at the expense of hurting Charlotte and bringing her down. I just can’t roll with that, they are about to main event Wrestlemania. I don’t think booking that Becky has Charlotte’s number has killed Charlotte’s character. Asuka beat Becky, Charlotte beat Asuka, Becky has Charlotte’s number. They are the three top women in the company outside of Rousey and they match up with each other differently. I have not seen Charlotte as a weak character the last 6 months or so and don’t think most have either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 18:59:55 GMT -5
Strangely, I almost completely forgot about that but yeah, you’re both right. Like, it was admirable how much they really wanted her to be a heel and did the “right” things to make that happen but man, nobody was buying it. It was staggering. Not only Becky was much more likeable,the idea that ANYONE would think Charlotte was in the right by being in the match is kinda blind.( she even stole the pin) I swore to my parents I wouldn't debate Charlotte/Becky's heel turns anymore but I'm an adult and I'm gonna do what I wanna do. I still disagree that Charlotte was the "heel." Becky got her title shot, then Charlotte came in to save her from a beating the week after and stumbled into the match without really asking for it. Then after talking about it the two mutually agreed that they would roll the dice and let the best woman win. Come match time Charlotte doesn't "steal" the win, she wins a triple threat match within the confines of the rules. Becky escalates the matter to a physical problem, and thus becomes the "heel." I agree that Charlotte's actions would classify as a "dick move," but to me it's a grey area because it's only human to want to accept a championship match like that, and they talked it out to reach an understanding on the matter. The only real flaw in the story was WWE foolishly thinking this was a story that the fans would play along with but as far as the actual storytelling went I thought it was a pretty well done story revolving around two friends put in a tough spot, but to me Becky was the one who "turned." Up until then at best you could say Charlotte was walking towards the edge.
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Post by Thunderbolt on Mar 26, 2019 19:17:29 GMT -5
Liv Morgan. The Eric Rowan of the Riott Squad. Because they both have big butts?
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Post by Dub H on Mar 26, 2019 19:36:54 GMT -5
Not only Becky was much more likeable,the idea that ANYONE would think Charlotte was in the right by being in the match is kinda blind.( she even stole the pin) I swore to my parents I wouldn't debate Charlotte/Becky's heel turns anymore but I'm an adult and I'm gonna do what I wanna do. I still disagree that Charlotte was the "heel." Becky got her title shot, then Charlotte came in to save her from a beating the week after and stumbled into the match without really asking for it. Then after talking about it the two mutually agreed that they would roll the dice and let the best woman win. Come match time Charlotte doesn't "steal" the win, she wins a triple threat match within the confines of the rules. Becky escalates the matter to a physical problem, and thus becomes the "heel." I agree that Charlotte's actions would classify as a "dick move," but to me it's a grey area because it's only human to want to accept a championship match like that, and they talked it out to reach an understanding on the matter. The only real flaw in the story was WWE foolishly thinking this was a story that the fans would play along with but as far as the actual storytelling went I thought it was a pretty well done story revolving around two friends put in a tough spot, but to me Becky was the one who "turned." Up until then at best you could say Charlotte was walking towards the edge. i never really said she was the heel ,but the situation was still sympathetic to Becky. But Charlotte never acted heelish
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:59:54 GMT -5
I swore to my parents I wouldn't debate Charlotte/Becky's heel turns anymore but I'm an adult and I'm gonna do what I wanna do. I still disagree that Charlotte was the "heel." Becky got her title shot, then Charlotte came in to save her from a beating the week after and stumbled into the match without really asking for it. Then after talking about it the two mutually agreed that they would roll the dice and let the best woman win. Come match time Charlotte doesn't "steal" the win, she wins a triple threat match within the confines of the rules. Becky escalates the matter to a physical problem, and thus becomes the "heel." I agree that Charlotte's actions would classify as a "dick move," but to me it's a grey area because it's only human to want to accept a championship match like that, and they talked it out to reach an understanding on the matter. The only real flaw in the story was WWE foolishly thinking this was a story that the fans would play along with but as far as the actual storytelling went I thought it was a pretty well done story revolving around two friends put in a tough spot, but to me Becky was the one who "turned." Up until then at best you could say Charlotte was walking towards the edge. i never really said she was the heel ,but the situation was still sympathetic to Becky. But Charlotte never acted heelish Let's call the whole thing off.
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Post by Starshine on Mar 27, 2019 0:02:56 GMT -5
So is no one going to ask it?
Is Charlotte OP?
*Braces for thrown produce*
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 0:05:01 GMT -5
Becky was in no way a face until she got injured. She was acting like a coward, taking underhanded methods, constantly attacking Charlotte, and beat down Ronda. She turned face in that segment where she picked Charlotte to face Ronda.
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Post by masterthought on Mar 27, 2019 3:24:58 GMT -5
Becky was in no way a face until she got injured. She was acting like a coward, taking underhanded methods, constantly attacking Charlotte, and beat down Ronda. She turned face in that segment where she picked Charlotte to face Ronda. OK. Becky was a face to the Audience her whole career. Everyone thought Becky was the face after Summerslam which is why people were pissed when WWE had her crap on the fans 2 days later. Bayley literally beat Sasha's ass and got the same reaction and was still the face after. It was obvious that WWE were trying to make Becky a heel which the fans ignored because Becky didn't deserve to be booed.. Becky crapped on the crowd only once in her infamous post Summerslam Promo on SD and WWE to their credit never went back to it. Becky only cheated once(and lost) and beat Charlotte clean at HIAC and at Evolution. Becky didn't start to try leaving her matches until she was champion(she didn't want to lose her belt). The most heelish thing Becky did was her mocking Edge's neck injury(still got cheered) but even then Edge was being condescending to Becky and straight up lying to her face. "I sit at home alone staring at all my accolades" Yea sure you do Edge. Asuka attacked Becky from behind before the RR and attacked Becky unprovoked before TLC with the Kendo stick. Attacking someone from behind isn't only a heel thing. Becky also never backed down from Charlotte. In today's WWE heel/faces it's not black and white. Faces can be dicks sometimes and heels have hearts sometimes. Becky is still an ass sometimes and does shady stuff(attacking Ronda from behind with the crutch) The fans dictate who's heel. Look at Charlotte now. What has Charlotte done that makes her a heel? She just beat Asuka clean and kissed her ass after. Is she heel? A big reason the fans didn't go with booing Becky is dumb tweets like this. RoadDogg's incompetent tweets made it impossible not to cheer Becky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 3:28:37 GMT -5
The fans dictate who's heel. Look at Charlotte now. What has Charlotte done that makes her a heel? She just beat Asuka clean and kissed her ass after. Is she heel? I mean, flattering her on Twitter doesn't really mean anything, and as for things she's done that make her a heel... Beat Ronda have to death at Survivor Series for no reason (which was her heel turn), start egotistically ranting and raving about how she deserves to be handed things, boasting about being in the Mania main event for literally no reason, mocking Becky for having her title shot taken away, trying to cripple her, insulting fans for not heaping praise on her, demanding the Raw Women's title be handed over to her with no work solely due to outside factors, and getting frustrated when she couldn't beat Asuka during a match in the lead-up to TLC and subsequently trying to beat her with a kendo stick.
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Mar 27, 2019 10:40:06 GMT -5
She tapped to Asuka at the Rumble. That doesn’t scream OP to me.
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