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Post by realist on Jun 19, 2019 7:22:29 GMT -5
I think Brian Zane of "Wrestling with Wregret" summed it up best on Twitter. Unfortunately, I don't know how to put tweets on this board, so to summarize, he says it comes down to ignorance at best and gaslighting at worst.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 19, 2019 11:32:52 GMT -5
The Ultimate Warrior is dead.
I would consider it whitewashing if he were alive and the WWE were used as a platform to repair his reputation so he could real the benefits, but he's not. Being married to Warrior doesn't mean Dana is guilty of holding the same beliefs, you can love someone and hold your own beliefs, not exist purely as an extension of their personality and politics.
I don't believe in guilt by association. I'll condemn her if there's any evidence of her holding the same beliefs, but until then she can keep on doing what she can to get something good from Warrior's legacy.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 19, 2019 11:49:33 GMT -5
Got to learn to forgive people. You can't forgive people who don't seek forgiveness.
The Ultimate Warrior is dead. I would consider it whitewashing if he were alive and the WWE were used as a platform to repair his reputation so he could real the benefits, but he's not. Being married to Warrior doesn't mean Dana is guilty of holding the same beliefs, you can love someone and hold your own beliefs, not exist purely as an extension of their personality and politics. I don't believe in guilt by association. I'll condemn her if there's any evidence of her holding the same beliefs, but until then she can keep on doing what she can to get something good from Warrior's legacy.
It's whitewashing because WWE and Dana are rewriting history to make Warrior represent this upstanding individual for the cynical purposes of marketing and patting themselves on the back for being such a progressive and woke company. I'd buy the whole "they're trying to turn a symbol of hate into something good!" defense if they acknowledged his hateful beliefs. Or if LGBTQ+ people that didn't work for WWE started using it. But pretending they never existed is the very definition of whitewashing. "Philanthropy is the future of marketing" and all that.
And no one is saying that Dana Warrior is homophobic herself or shares her dead husband's beliefs. And maybe her heart is in the right place. But this is really tone-deaf.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jun 19, 2019 11:58:00 GMT -5
Got to learn to forgive people. You can't forgive people who don't seek forgiveness. Hard to do when you are dead. Though there are reports he tried to make amends before the end. Maybe he grew as a person but died before he could express his regrets. All I know is that he was a very good person and respectful when I met him. I see no issues with using his memory fir good and to maybe correct ignorant beliefs he once had.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 19, 2019 12:03:14 GMT -5
You can't forgive people who don't seek forgiveness. Hard to do when you are dead. Though there are reports he tried to make amends before the end. Maybe he grew as a person but died before he could express his regrets. He made amends with some people he personally wronged outside of the ones that were dead, like that kid with terminal sickness he ignored. But not with the people he dehumanized as a whole. And it's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunities to publicly renounce his bigoted views either.
All we have is Dana's word that he no longer held bigoted beliefs towards the LGBTQ+ community, Jews, and other people he wronged. And maybe she believes that. But it doesn't mean a whole lot. And with the messed up shit he said, he hasn't earned benefit of the doubt just because he ran around half-naked with facepaint and entertained people by shaking the top rope like a maniac.
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Post by realist on Jun 19, 2019 12:12:08 GMT -5
Hard to do when you are dead. Though there are reports he tried to make amends before the end. Maybe he grew as a person but died before he could express his regrets. He made amends with some people he personally wronged outside of the ones that were dead, like that kid with terminal sickness he ignored. But not with the people he dehumanized as a whole. And it's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunities to publicly renounce his bigoted views either.
All we have is Dana's word that he no longer held bigoted beliefs towards the LGBTQ+ community, Jews, and other people he wronged. And maybe she believes that. But it doesn't mean a whole lot. And with the messed up shit he said, he hasn't earned benefit of the doubt just because he ran around half-naked with facepaint and entertained people by shaking the top rope like a maniac.
But, but he fake fought good!! Clearly, he is incapable of any wrongdoing.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jun 19, 2019 12:18:24 GMT -5
He made amends with some people he personally wronged outside of the ones that were dead, like that kid with terminal sickness he ignored. But not with the people he dehumanized as a whole. And it's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunities to publicly renounce his bigoted views either.
All we have is Dana's word that he no longer held bigoted beliefs towards the LGBTQ+ community, Jews, and other people he wronged. And maybe she believes that. But it doesn't mean a whole lot. And with the messed up shit he said, he hasn't earned benefit of the doubt just because he ran around half-naked with facepaint and entertained people by shaking the top rope like a maniac.
But, but he fake fought good!! Clearly, he is incapable of any wrongdoing. Who had even tried to insinuate that? All I’ve ever said was that when I, a bisexual man, me him and spent time with him...he was very nice and very respectful. I’ll admit, as he did, that he wasn’t a great in ring talent. Has nothing to do with my thoughts. As long as his image is used for good that is a great thing
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Post by realist on Jun 19, 2019 12:23:57 GMT -5
But, but he fake fought good!! Clearly, he is incapable of any wrongdoing. Who had even tried to insinuate that? All I’ve ever said was that when I, a bisexual man, me him and spent time with him...he was very nice and very respectful. I’ll admit, as he did, that he wasn’t a great in ring talent. Has nothing to do with my thoughts. As long as his image is used for good that is a great thing This wasn't exactly aimed at any posters here as much as it is aimed at WWE and the way that they continually whitewash who he was like he was some sort of great humanitarian every year at the Hall of Fame. I just piggybacked off of the other guy's post who talked about him running down in face paint and entertaining. I sincerely apologize for any confusion.
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Post by nickcave on Jun 19, 2019 13:09:14 GMT -5
As a queer person myself, I don't really mind a simple tweet in support but the face paint and re-framing thing is mildly offensive to me considering the man himself never expressed any remorse or feelings counter to what he expressed the majority of his life. Also, Dana Warrior's company in charge of Warrior's legacy got the Internet Archive to remove their Wayback Machine data on Warrior's old homophobic blog posts on his website under threat of copyright infringement so clearly she's motivated in pretending like Warrior's views never existed. That's probably the most offensive thing to me out all of this.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jun 19, 2019 13:09:50 GMT -5
I'm just glad before he went into the WWE Hall of Fame, he changed so much that he put out a public statement saying how wrong he was in what he had said; which I know was difficult since Warrior had trouble finding platforms to share his views.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 19, 2019 13:40:35 GMT -5
Got to learn to forgive people. You can't forgive people who don't seek forgiveness.
The Ultimate Warrior is dead. I would consider it whitewashing if he were alive and the WWE were used as a platform to repair his reputation so he could real the benefits, but he's not. Being married to Warrior doesn't mean Dana is guilty of holding the same beliefs, you can love someone and hold your own beliefs, not exist purely as an extension of their personality and politics. I don't believe in guilt by association. I'll condemn her if there's any evidence of her holding the same beliefs, but until then she can keep on doing what she can to get something good from Warrior's legacy. It's whitewashing because WWE and Dana are rewriting history to make Warrior represent this upstanding individual for the cynical purposes of marketing and patting themselves on the back for being such a progressive and woke company. I'd buy the whole "they're trying to turn a symbol of hate into something good!" defense if they acknowledged his hateful beliefs. Or if LGBTQ+ people that didn't work for WWE started using it. But pretending they never existed is the very definition of whitewashing. "Philanthropy is the future of marketing" and all that.
And no one is saying that Dana Warrior is homophobic herself or shares her dead husband's beliefs. And maybe her heart is in the right place. But this is really tone-deaf.
What do people expect her to do? Go 'Hey yeah, my husband was a sack of crap, sorry about that, now buy some merchandise in pride flag colours'? There is no way to address his comments that will please everyone and I don't support deleting him from history as at this point, all that will do his hurt his widow and child who have done nothing wrong, What Warrior the human being said will never be erased, all the homophobic comments, all the disgusting slurs directed at his deceased co-workers will be out there for the rest of our lives and will crop up every time someone does any sort of research into him, and that's a good thing. That said, Warrior the character is not warrior the man, and if Dana can use his likeness to do some good, she should. She could have handled it better, but hamfisted and wrestling go together ham hand in ham hand and let's face it, there are other routes she could have taken to profit from his character in this day and age that are a whole lot worse given the current political climate.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 19, 2019 13:54:10 GMT -5
How about not glorifying who he was with a false narrative for the sole purposes of making themselves look better and to make profit off his likeness? And I put a lot more blame on WWE as a whole for this over Dana, who I think at worst is being tone-deaf.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 19, 2019 14:41:33 GMT -5
Dana has the Warrior name, but she's not the Ultimate Warrior and no one seriously associates her or her children with that brand or gimmick. That belonged to her husband and he denigrated it through his own actions. If she wants to publically reframe that imagery with non-bigotry, I think it would be helpful for her to first publically acknowledge why it needs to be reframed.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jun 19, 2019 15:01:39 GMT -5
He made amends with some people he personally wronged outside of the ones that were dead, like that kid with terminal sickness he ignored. But not with the people he dehumanized as a whole. And it's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunities to publicly renounce his bigoted views either.
All we have is Dana's word that he no longer held bigoted beliefs towards the LGBTQ+ community, Jews, and other people he wronged. And maybe she believes that. But it doesn't mean a whole lot. And with the messed up shit he said, he hasn't earned benefit of the doubt just because he ran around half-naked with facepaint and entertained people by shaking the top rope like a maniac.
But, but he fake fought good!! Clearly, he is incapable of any wrongdoing. I mean, he didn't even really do that well.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 19, 2019 15:29:40 GMT -5
Listen i'm straight so maybe i'm speaking out my ass but I can't condemn her for something he said. If she said it out her mouth as well then that be one thing but just because they were married does not automatically means she agrees and believes in everything he did. He's dead. She's taking his platform and using it for "good". That f***ed up stupid shit he said in the past died with him but is brand and label lives on with her in which she is using it for her own devices
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Post by paulbearer on Jun 22, 2019 22:52:57 GMT -5
"My problem has always been with them completely whitewashing and lionizing his legacy. There's moving on from the past and there's pretending it never happened"
Same thing with Bruce Lee who cheated with lots of women and did drugs but after his death its not allowed to mention his flaws , at least not thru official things like in films etc
And like Warrior many people thought he was a bit of a jerk (the real man , not the image) , martial arts milieu didnt even show up in his HK funeral due to his attitude
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Post by paulbearer on Jun 22, 2019 23:10:13 GMT -5
Just curious, Did Mr. Warrior ever apologize and or try to make amends for any of the stuff he said? If he did, it would have probably been incomprehensible anyway. Im sure he had knowledge of lots of topics (from what I can see in his YouTube videos) , if anything he was smart albeit flawed
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Jun 23, 2019 9:14:59 GMT -5
...I still don't understand how she got a job in the Wwe...
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Post by realist on Jun 23, 2019 9:24:21 GMT -5
"My problem has always been with them completely whitewashing and lionizing his legacy. There's moving on from the past and there's pretending it never happened" Same thing with Bruce Lee who cheated with lots of women and did drugs but after his death its not allowed to mention his flaws , at least not thru official things like in films etc And like Warrior many people thought he was a bit of a jerk (the real man , not the image) , martial arts milieu didnt even show up in his HK funeral due to his attitude Wow. I never heard of any of this stuff. Fascinating.
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Post by SAJ Forth on Jun 23, 2019 15:17:43 GMT -5
Just curious, Did Mr. Warrior ever apologize and or try to make amends for any of the stuff he said? Not sure if his match with Orlando Jordan counts.
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