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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Jan 1, 2020 22:31:28 GMT -5
Darby Allin doesn't lose all the time though. He's been pinned on 3 occasions in singles competition.
Once against the World Champion Chris Jericho, Once against #1 Contender Jon Moxley, and once against Cody who has precisely singles loss.
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Post by eJm on Jan 1, 2020 22:31:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean look how it killed Jeff Hardy's career! ... Oh, wait a minute, that was how he got over... But Shawn Michaels in the early 90s... ... Wait him too? But then Stone Cold kicked Bret, Undertaker and Shawn's asses all over the building in 1996-1997! ... Wait he didn't go over a single one of them at that time? Huh, I guess Ziggler's an exception based on years of bad booking, and not the rule. Seriously, if it's a couple of months of this, it's longterm story telling, if it's several years of it, then we can talk Dolph Ziggler. Yeah, Ziggler did not fall down the ladder so precipitously because of three months of this booking. He was still hot for a good year or two in that position. And they also did nothing to evolve him beyond “I PUT ON THE BEST MATCH OF THE NIGHT!” etc
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:33:50 GMT -5
He kicked out of the face's top finisher. He only lost because Cody had Arn Anderson (who is regarded as one of the best, both in Kayfabe and in real life) there to coach him through it.
Darby is a major talent, and I love the dude's work. But there's got to be a pecking order or else you end up with WWE parity booking. As long as Cody's among the top tier of crowd pops, he's going to be on the top of the card. When he gets stale, that's when you elevate someone from the midcard. At least, that's how I see the plan going.
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Post by Dub H on Jan 1, 2020 22:37:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean look how it killed Jeff Hardy's career! ... Oh, wait a minute, that was how he got over... But Shawn Michaels in the early 90s... ... Wait him too? But then Stone Cold kicked Bret, Undertaker and Shawn's asses all over the building in 1996-1997! ... Wait he didn't go over a single one of them at that time? Huh, I guess Ziggler's an exception based on years of bad booking, and not the rule. Seriously, if it's a couple of months of this, it's longterm story telling, if it's several years of it, then we can talk Dolph Ziggler. Yeah, Ziggler did not fall down the ladder so precipitously because of three months of this booking. He was still hot for a good year or two in that position. Ziggler's Heat was killed slowly and painfully
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jan 1, 2020 22:41:46 GMT -5
Yeah, Ziggler did not fall down the ladder so precipitously because of three months of this booking. He was still hot for a good year or two in that position. Ziggler's Heat was killed slowly and painfully Like watching a snuff film at 1/8 speed it was.
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H-Virus
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Post by H-Virus on Jan 1, 2020 22:43:04 GMT -5
Darby is currently 5-5-1 in total AEW matches. He won 5, another ended in a draw, two of his loses were in a triple threat and a multi-man tag, and his three singles loses were against arguably the top three people in the company: the champ Chris Jericho, the undefeated Moxley, and the top babyface Cody. I feel like it's a little early to be calling him the new Dolph Ziggler.
Also OP, how did you watch his match tonight and come away with 'he got his ass kicked the entire time'?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:43:42 GMT -5
Yeah, Ziggler did not fall down the ladder so precipitously because of three months of this booking. He was still hot for a good year or two in that position. Ziggler's Heat was killed slowly and painfully Ziggler is a great example of how you can reclaim someone's "heat" after repeated losses. Survivor Series 2014. Dude was the sole survivor and overcame insane odds and was white hot for it. The WWE dropped the ball and didn't capitalize on it, but that's another story. Point being, even if Allin goes through a real bad stretch and starts to look like a chump, it can be fixed with good creative and booking.
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Post by eJm on Jan 1, 2020 22:44:53 GMT -5
Ziggler's Heat was killed slowly and painfully Ziggler is a great example of how you can reclaim someone's "heat" after repeated losses. Survivor Series 2014. Dude was the sole survivor and overcame insane odds and was white hot for it. The WWE dropped the ball and didn't capitalize on it, but that's another story. It was less they dropped the ball and more “painfully made it clear Ziggler was going to be a nobody forever”.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 1, 2020 22:48:49 GMT -5
I meant free losses as "they can take it, give to then".Yeh they can,doesn`t mean you should so much. It is something they're majorly overusing. Yeah, Darby can lose all the time, it's fine, he's young. Nyla can lose all the time, it's fine, she's young. Jungle Boy can lose all the time, it's fine, he's young. Kip Sabian can lose all the time, it's fine, he's young. At a point just all your young people are shit who never win. Ok dude, you're being WAY too pessimistic about the product tonight if those are your examples to prove a point. Nyla has been booked like a monster the past few weeks. The entire crux of tonight's match is all three girls were trying to find a way to stop her, and at the end of the match she destroyed the champion. Nyla Rose has been pinned a grand total of ONE TIME by Riho in the title match. Jungle Boy has been pinned a grand total of maybe twice? The reason his loss record inflated was because of Marko Stunt, who took all their tag team pins. I don't see how that hurts Jungle Boy at all. He then proceeds to have a ten minute match with Jericho, survives over a minute in a Lion Tamer, and overcomes and survives. Not only that, can still go and takes ot to Jericho before he gives up and leaves. Tonight he even had a promo where he and Jurassic Express are focused on turning things around and that being the starting point. Kip Sabian is maybe the only one who you can have some ground with, but he WON his first match in AEW. He has since only had a few matches and has not been presented as a big deal until his rebrand. He's had a great match with Omega and is looking to build up his Hybrid 2 team. The Janela Feud is gonna be his first real feud in the company. Like I really don't get the notion that the young guys and girls are being presented as "Shit who never win", because that's simply not the case. As I said before I think you need to step back and cool off, you weren't feeling the show tonight and it feels like you're attacking everything related to AEW in every thread about it tonight. You're free to have those opinions and thoughts but it really does feel like a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 23:02:34 GMT -5
Didn't see it but I'm not surprised. I recall a few weeks after Dynamite started that I hoped that he wouldn't be the "daredevil youngster who always puts on a great match but he's never getting a major win" character so to find this out now isn't surprising. People told me that he wasn't gonna be this character but alas it seems he is. Yeah, he'll eventually get a win and yeah he's young and yeah he'll be world champion but shit, not everybody likes that whole "guy can't win a match so he's struggling to get one win" storyline. Others might enjoy it but I've seen that in so many different promotions I'm done with that.
I'll probably be a fan of dude's stories down the line but right now I'm just not feeling it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 1, 2020 23:13:13 GMT -5
He kicked out of the face's top finisher. He only lost because Cody had Arn Anderson (who is regarded as one of the best, both in Kayfabe and in real life) there to coach him through it. Darby is a major talent, and I love the dude's work. But there's got to be a pecking order or else you end up with WWE parity booking. As long as Cody's among the top tier of crowd pops, he's going to be on the top of the card. When he gets stale, that's when you elevate someone from the midcard. At least, that's how I see the plan going. This is a key point and one I think people lost sight of in the (I feel justified) reaction to Triple H's reign of terror era: if you want to build stars, establishing a tier system is a damn good way to do it. I do think the Elite guys feel a bit influenced by puro booking, and a big building block in traditional puro booking is establishing clear tiers. Yes, like in real sports a lower ranked opponent could defeat a higher ranked guy on any given day, but it shouldn't be likely, it should be a surprise when it happens. It's a huge reason why Okada feels like "the final boss of wrestling" to a lot of people: NJPW builds him as such by making it incredibly damn difficult to ever pin in him any situation, and they do that to varying degrees with their other top level talent. Meanwhile, people cheer like crazy for young boys to get breakthrough wins in various puro promotions even though it isn't likely; when they finally grow and develop through adversity and get that signature win, it's a big moment. Right now, a lot of the very young talent in AEW is winning their squash matches or matches against their similarly ranked peers, but they can't quite break through against the upper tier, with some exceptions like Private Party coming through against the Bucks and the Lucha Bros. It'd be one thing if there was no story told in these matches, but so far for the most part there has been: Jungle Boy showed he's more than fun and games by standing up to Jericho, Darby is clearly near the level of the top guys but just can't quite break through yet given his youth and lack of experience, and Nyla is too driven by her anger and desire to hurt people and sometimes leaves herself open to smarter, more experienced opponents being able to capitalize on her because of that. I agree that I want to see someone like Sabian get a bit more clear direction, but his upcoming feud with Janela should definitely help with that. Basically, to get attached to a young wrestler it often pays to watch them grow and develop, and that'll often mean having to watch as they fall just short against the top tier of whatever promotion they're in. Given that we're in month four of weekly AEW TV and they've already got a number of these young wrestlers (especially Darby) pretty damn over with their audience, I think it points to them likely having some solid plans in mind, just going to be a matter of different amounts of time for different wrestlers. Didn't see it but I'm not surprised. I recall a few weeks after Dynamite started that I hoped that he wouldn't be the "daredevil youngster who always puts on a great match but he's never getting a major win" character so to find this out now isn't surprising. People told me that he wasn't gonna be this character but alas it seems he is. Yeah, he'll eventually get a win and yeah he's young and yeah he'll be world champion but shit, not everybody likes that whole "guy can't win a match so he's struggling to get one win" storyline. Others might enjoy it but I've seen that in so many different promotions I'm done with that. I'll probably be a fan of dude's stories down the line but right now I'm just not feeling it. Without seeing it?
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 1, 2020 23:14:16 GMT -5
Didn't see it but I'm not surprised. I recall a few weeks after Dynamite started that I hoped that he wouldn't be the "daredevil youngster who always puts on a great match but he's never getting a major win" character so to find this out now isn't surprising. People told me that he wasn't gonna be this character but alas it seems he is. Yeah, he'll eventually get a win and yeah he's young and yeah he'll be world champion but shit, not everybody likes that whole "guy can't win a match so he's struggling to get one win" storyline. Others might enjoy it but I've seen that in so many different promotions I'm done with that. I'll probably be a fan of dude's stories down the line but right now I'm just not feeling it. Dude you didn't even see the show or the match, that's not the story that was even told for the match. Allin only lost because of Arn Anderson. He controlled like 80 percent of the match and looked stellar in doing so. He's only truly lost one big match decisively and it was against Moxley. I don't even know why people count Jericho's when Jericho needed handcuffs and interference to win it. Sorry but you saying you didn't see what's going on just to immediately go off and say you aren't feeling it rubs me the wrong way because you're missing context, context which a lot of people have provided in disagreeing with the OP vehemently.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 23:15:22 GMT -5
Didn't see it but I'm not surprised. I recall a few weeks after Dynamite started that I hoped that he wouldn't be the "daredevil youngster who always puts on a great match but he's never getting a major win" character so to find this out now isn't surprising. People told me that he wasn't gonna be this character but alas it seems he is. Yeah, he'll eventually get a win and yeah he's young and yeah he'll be world champion but shit, not everybody likes that whole "guy can't win a match so he's struggling to get one win" storyline. Others might enjoy it but I've seen that in so many different promotions I'm done with that. I'll probably be a fan of dude's stories down the line but right now I'm just not feeling it. Without seeing it? ?
Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement?
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Post by Malibu Albino on Jan 1, 2020 23:15:58 GMT -5
I'm a little disappointed that it only took a few months for folks to already get this pessimistic about the AEW product. Like I don't at all feel that way about it but I'm still bummed because this board was really fun and positive for a while there.
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Post by eJm on Jan 1, 2020 23:16:50 GMT -5
I mean, as people pointed out...he has wins. He’s pinned people to build himself up and they build him as someone to watch and craft a presentation around the guy.
And as needed to be pointed out again, his only single losses were against the World Champion (who needed help), Cody (who needed help) and Moxley (who needed to literally kill him).
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 1, 2020 23:16:57 GMT -5
?
Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement? Coming into a thread and starting off by saying you didn't see a match and then going off about how a wrestler is being booked when you aren't watching it and saying you aren't feeling it when you haven't seen it, is some pretty annoying shit if I'm being honest with you.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jan 1, 2020 23:19:40 GMT -5
I mean, as people pointed out...he has wins. He’s pinned people to build himself up and they build him as someone to watch and craft a presentation around the guy. And as needed to be pointed out again, his only single losses were against the World Champion (who needed help), Cody (who needed help) and Moxley (who needed to literally kill him). I really don't get why these things are being overlooked. Not only does he have good and decisive wins, but really Moxley is the only decisive loss he's had and it was after Moxley hit his finisher off a middle rope and practically killed him This whole notion that Darby suddenly can't win the big one or can't win period is bullshit to me, if you watch the matches and the show itself you see just how much has been needed to keep Allin down and he just keeps coming back, and adapting, and improving as the second Cody match really showed.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 1, 2020 23:22:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean look how it killed Jeff Hardy's career! ... Oh, wait a minute, that was how he got over... But Shawn Michaels in the early 90s... ... Wait him too? But then Stone Cold kicked Bret, Undertaker and Shawn's asses all over the building in 1996-1997! ... Wait he didn't go over a single one of them at that time? Huh, I guess Ziggler's an exception based on years of bad booking, and not the rule. Seriously, if it's a couple of months of this, it's longterm story telling, if it's several years of it, then we can talk Dolph Ziggler. Yeah, Ziggler did not fall down the ladder so precipitously because of three months of this booking. He was still hot for a good year or two in that position. It took, what, eight years into his run before most finally completely gave up on him?
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Jan 1, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5
Dude kicked out of the cross roads, dude's fine
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5
?
Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement? Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for. To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but feel like there are people putting or projecting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.
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