Darby Allin *spoilers*

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:15:22 GMT -5 @kn said:

?

Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement?

Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for.

To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but people are putting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.

Wish I could like this more than once. The amount of hoop jumping and overanalysis I see for some of AEW's decisions is so tiring at this point. Not naming anyone specific here, not even on this forum entirely, just in general. It feels like people want an alternative but want it like that Simpsons focus group where they don't know what they want, want everything, and want it exactly the way they want it, all at the same time, with Robots. 

[eJm]

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5 Zone Was Wrong said:

Dude kicked out of the cross roads, dude's fine

That Crossrhodes, though...can a move somehow be botched and look like a thing of vicious beauty?

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jan 1, 2020 23:29:20 GMT -5 eJm said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:23 GMT -5 Zone Was Wrong said:

Dude kicked out of the cross roads, dude's fine

That Crossrhodes, though...can a move somehow be botched and look like a thing of vicious beauty?

The right way to do it would be Cody's way, the wrong way would be MJF's

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Jan 1, 2020 23:13:13 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

I do think the Elite guys feel a bit influenced by puro booking, and a big building block in traditional puro booking is establishing clear tiers. Yes, like in real sports a lower ranked opponent could defeat a higher ranked guy on any given day, but it shouldn't be likely, it should be a surprise when it happens. It's a huge reason why Okada feels like "the final boss of wrestling" to a lot of people: NJPW builds him as such by making it incredibly damn difficult to ever pin in him any situation, and they do that to varying degrees with their other top level talent. Meanwhile, people cheer like crazy for young boys to get breakthrough wins in various puro promotions even though it isn't likely; when they finally grow and develop through adversity and get that signature win, it's a big moment.

This is something I think is in play in discussions about AEW - WWE has thoroughly poisoned the well on so many booking tropes. WCW did their fair share, as well. WWE has managed to screw up just about every single form of pre-planned organic rise to the top and are only able to successfully put over a face on the main event level by the audience vehemently rebelling. And like...there are other booking styles out there, but AEW is also very firmly in the mold of WWE and WCW instead of the mold of NJPW or peak ROH (for example), so AEW's use of tropes that work just fine in puro or on the indies has more of the feel of WWE's biggest mistakes.

EDIT: Ha, Hmark, you brought up exactly this in another post while I was writing this!

[Deleted]

Admittedly part of my frustration from this is also probably just coming from being really goddamn tired of Cody. The not challenging for the belt thing's pretty much rendered the character useless in the rankings but he's still clogging them up, and every step of the way they give his act every bell and whistle imaginable.

Like, the MJF stipulations are an excellent example. Any one of those would be enough to prolong the feud but no, we have to do all three.

[Ash Kingston]

Eh, I thought Allin looked good in defeat. Which I suppose could be a bit of the problem in of itself; looking good in defeat doesn't mean shit if they don't do anything else with a wrestler, as we've seen countless times with that happening in WWE. Now, do I think that's actually gonna happen with Darby? Maybe not. But it's still an understandable concern, and one that I hope AEW does something to alleviate.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:15:22 GMT -5 @kn said:

?

Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement?

Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for.

To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but people are putting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.

That’s something that I’m thinking may be the case here, as someone who isn’t watching Dynamite. Trying to reconcile how AEW are the doing the same kinds of things that happen in WWE yet are being reacted to differently.

Simply put, AEW don’t have that years and years of baggage that are telling you “This probably isn’t going anywhere”. Recent example... Buddy Murphy has that great match with Roman Reigns. He shouldn’t be beating him, and newsflash, he doesn’t, but he looks great against one of the top stars in the company. And then... he’s off TV until the Draft (I think)? And he’s only just had his first angle since where he was built up to be a credible heel for a different guy on the rise to beat (Aleister Black). In WWE, you kind of have to keep winning and winning and winning, almost until the fans are already sick of you, and then win some more, before there’s any thought to the idea that WWE are committed to a push.

[Cyno]

I get people being burned by WWE's awful way of booking up-and-coming talent, but AEW isn't WWE.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:15:22 GMT -5 @kn said:

?

Do I have to see the match to know that he put up a great fight but barely lost? That is what happened right? Will seeing the match change that statement?

Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for.

To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but people are putting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.

That doesn't change my opinion and even seeing it wouldn't change anything I said. Nowhere in my post was I talking about the story of the match like you think. I'm speaking on if he won or if he lost rather than what the match's story was. The guy could have barely lost and only lost due to 10 demons and getting hit by a truck and yet I'd say the same because from what I've seen in all of his AEW matches he's lost big time matches whether it's barely or by shenanigans. From a wins and losses standpoint with his daredevil persona to me he's the daredevil who's fearless and does great but he hasn't won anything major yet and me? I'm not a fan of that because I'd like him to win matches. I wasn't even talking about why he lost tonight or where they're setting him up, I'm talking about the entirety of what he's been doing at this point because from out of all I've seen from him (everything sans tonight's match) he's had these matches but he just lost barely. Beyond that I even gave him props in my post by saying that yes, he's still young and yes, he's a future world champion. At the same time no, I'm not digging the fact that he's had these big matches lost.

At the end of the day me seeing one match isn't going to make me say "man, that completely overrides everything I thought about him prior" especially when I'm not speaking on the entire story of the match but rather his wins and losses solely.

We're speaking on 2 different things. You're speaking on how he lost the match while I'm speaking on the fact he lost another big named match. I don't care how he lost especially when in my eyes he's barely lost every big named match he's been in.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jan 1, 2020 23:32:27 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

Admittedly part of my frustration from this is also probably just coming from being really goddamn tired of Cody. The not challenging for the belt thing's pretty much rendered the character useless in the rankings but he's still clogging them up, and every step of the way they give his act every bell and whistle imaginable.

Like, the MJF stipulations are an excellent example. Any one of those would be enough to prolong the feud but no, we have to do all three.

I think that Cody will eventually challenge for the belt anyway. It's just something that's off the table right now.

That aside I feel like it makes sense for MJF to have more than one stipulation and pour it on. I'm definitely excited for the cage match, that's a hell of a way to debut Wardlow as well since we were all wondering when and how he would, giving him a big stage right off the bat.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2020 23:36:25 GMT -5 Cyno said:

I get people being burned by WWE's awful way of booking up-and-coming talent, but AEW isn't WWE.

Granted but AEW does have a very clear and present track record of not having any follow-up to things or delaying it to the point of being meaningless. Darby basically was just completely blown off after both the Jericho and Moxley losses and this week did nothing to follow up on the Jungle Boy stuff.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Something I'm gonna take away from this is the overwhelming praise Allin seems to be getting online for his match tonight. No one really seems to be hung up on the fact he lost to Cody, they're just praising how good the match in total was, and that's just a net positive for Allin as he goes forward.

People know he's good, people wanna see him, hope it's nowhere but up for him.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jan 1, 2020 23:42:52 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:36:25 GMT -5 Cyno said:

I get people being burned by WWE's awful way of booking up-and-coming talent, but AEW isn't WWE.

Granted but AEW does have a very clear and present track record of not having any follow-up to things or delaying it to the point of being meaningless. Darby basically was just completely blown off after both the Jericho and Moxley losses and this week did nothing to follow up on the Jungle Boy stuff.

Except they did. Jericho mentioned it in the promo and is still denying he lost to him, and in a promo backstage Jungle Boy said it was the biggest match of his career, he survived, and he's going to use it as a springboard to hurdle Jurassic Express into prominance

So... yeah, not correct. As for the Allin matches, I really dont think everything needs a HUGE follow-up, especially the Moxley match. Mox asked for a challenge, Darby gave it to him, was really nuff said and it was a great match.

I also need to bring up something. Allin was legit hurt at one point, had a pinched nerve in his neck I believe which kept him out a few weeks. So they literally COULDN'T do things with him for a time period.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Jan 1, 2020 23:42:52 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

this week did nothing to follow up on the Jungle Boy stuff.

...Jericho made clear that he was still bitter about how the match went down, and Jungle Boy got a promo about turning over a new leaf.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2020 23:45:47 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:42:52 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

this week did nothing to follow up on the Jungle Boy stuff.

...Jericho made clear that he was still bitter about how the match went down, and Jungle Boy got a promo about turning over a new leaf.

Okay, to be fair my mistake on that one, but looking up the results of the second half made no mention of it. Fair enough.

[HMARK Center]

Jan 1, 2020 23:32:22 GMT -5 Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:13:13 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

I do think the Elite guys feel a bit influenced by puro booking, and a big building block in traditional puro booking is establishing clear tiers. Yes, like in real sports a lower ranked opponent could defeat a higher ranked guy on any given day, but it shouldn't be likely, it should be a surprise when it happens. It's a huge reason why Okada feels like "the final boss of wrestling" to a lot of people: NJPW builds him as such by making it incredibly damn difficult to ever pin in him any situation, and they do that to varying degrees with their other top level talent. Meanwhile, people cheer like crazy for young boys to get breakthrough wins in various puro promotions even though it isn't likely; when they finally grow and develop through adversity and get that signature win, it's a big moment.

This is something I think is in play in discussions about AEW - WWE has thoroughly poisoned the well on so many booking tropes. WCW did their fair share, as well. WWE has managed to screw up just about every single form of pre-planned organic rise to the top and are only able to successfully put over a face on the main event level by the audience vehemently rebelling. And like...there are other booking styles out there, but AEW is also very firmly in the mold of WWE and WCW instead of the mold of NJPW or peak ROH (for example), so AEW's use of tropes that work just fine in puro or on the indies has more of the feel of WWE's biggest mistakes.

EDIT: Ha, Hmark, you brought up exactly this in another post while I was writing this!

Ha, go figure; you even used the term I've often used when discussing this with other people. To be fair to WWE I do think the aforementioned "poisoning of the well" when it comes to discussing wrestling booking for mainstream promotions extends to WCW's input from the late 90s and TNA's spotty, at best, record during the 2000s as well, so it's not like a case of "all wrestling would be great if it wasn't for WWE!"; WCW spent the late 90s telling fans to never get comfortable with ever being happy since the bad guys will end up winning soon enough, and that most big matches will just end in schmozzes, and Dixie-era TNA constantly seemed to tease pushing their younger, more exciting talent to the top but always pulled back, and only changed course after it was too late, all while booking super convoluted PPV main events that almost never felt like satisfying payoffs. Honestly, mainstream pro wrestling in the US has been pretty damn dire for a long, long time now, with some very small, very brief bright spots (e.g. the early days of the nWo, Steve Austin's booking in 1998, WWF in general circa 2000 until the Invasion, TNA circa 2005 and 2009...not a ton else to get super excited about); the fact we've got AEW and NXT on the same night now is a big fat exception to the longer term trend, and that's ignoring the largely solid products the various "mid major" promotions have been putting on TV and YouTube of late.

But still, it's like EoE described, you've got promotions like WWE, old WCW and old TNA, and there's often years of baggage, tropes, and expectations baked in, and when one promotion, in this case WWE, is so much bigger and more visible than everyone else it can be tough not to project those built up expectations onto other shows. I know for me in the past 15 years my favorite promotions were golden era ROH and now NJPW, so I got used to their tropes and bought into the idea of "be patient, this is going somewhere", instead, and who knows, maybe that's what I'm projecting onto AEW! But again, just trying to judge AEW on its own its big strength to me so far is taking relative unknowns and making them seem like pretty big deals to their audience, so given the short time it's been around as a promotion it makes me think they're at least pointed in the proper direction going forward, and I'm willing to go with that feeling until the product emphatically says otherwise.

[Dub H]

Jan 1, 2020 23:36:03 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for.

To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but people are putting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.

That’s something that I’m thinking may be the case here, as someone who isn’t watching Dynamite. Trying to reconcile how AEW are the doing the same kinds of things that happen in WWE yet are being reacted to differently.

Simply put, AEW don’t have that years and years of baggage that are telling you “This probably isn’t going anywhere”. Recent example... Buddy Murphy has that great match with Roman Reigns. He shouldn’t be beating him, and newsflash, he doesn’t, but he looks great against one of the top stars in the company. And then... he’s off TV until the Draft (I think)? And he’s only just had his first angle since where he was built up to be a credible heel for a different guy on the rise to beat (Aleister Black). In WWE, you kind of have to keep winning and winning and winning, almost until the fans are already sick of you, and then win some more, before there’s any thought to the idea that WWE are committed to a push.

Cena got half a year of an US Title run where people looked good in defeat,to never been seen again.And then losing to Del Rio

They lost the benefit of doubt somewhere along that time. We don`t know AEW exact plans.

[eJm]

Jan 1, 2020 23:56:27 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

But still, it's like EoE described, you've got promotions like WWE, old WCW and old TNA, and there's often years of baggage, tropes, and expectations baked in, and when one promotion, in this case WWE, is so much bigger and more visible than everyone else it can be tough not to project those built up expectations onto other shows. I know for me in the past 15 years my favorite promotions were golden era ROH and now NJPW, so I got used to their tropes and bought into the idea of "be patient, this is going somewhere", instead, and who knows, maybe that's what I'm projecting onto AEW! But again, just trying to judge AEW on its own its big strength to me so far is taking relative unknowns and making them seem like pretty big deals to their audience, so given the short time it's been around as a promotion it makes me think they're at least pointed in the proper direction going forward, and I'm willing to go with that feeling until the product emphatically says otherwise.

Think one of the stranger things about this whole bit is that this is the first promotion since the Death of WCW and even the "Death" of TNA where there's not really anyone leading from either promotion. Like, sure, you have Schiavone, Daniels and others in positions in the company but it's not like Khan wanted to do a wrestling promotion so grabbed his list of obvious names and reeled off Heyman, Cornette, Bischoff, Russo etc since they're literally the only names ever.

That's not to say you can't criticise decisions so to speak (I find the Moxley thing kind of weird for what is essentially a "DDP to nWo" moment) but this isn't like we're expecting those cases to leak through as much as we expect them to if that makes sense.

[Fake Jesus]

Jan 1, 2020 23:36:55 GMT -5 @kn said:

Jan 1, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

Well, yeah: the story of the match was that Darby mostly outclassed Cody, but couldn't account for Arn being there to get a dazed Cody's attention that the Coffin Drop was coming. It's a pretty big distinction from "fought hard but came up short"; Darby's already being shown to be just about at their level, and he's one signature win away from being a top card guy, but your point was that "fights hard but can't win the big one" is somehow his defining characteristic now, and saying that without watching it. It missed a lot of the details of what they're pretty clearly setting this guy up for.

To reiterate, we're beginning month 4 of this new promotion that has a whole lot of names in it that never got anywhere near the level of TV exposure they're getting now; I'm mostly just kind of floored that some people are assuming that people's roles in said new promotion are already cemented, or that there's no long-term thinking going on. It doesn't mean everything AEW does has sound logic behind it or is somehow beyond criticism, but I can't help but people are putting WWE tropes on top of AEW when they're not the same promotion and clearly approach booking and presentation in very different ways.

That doesn't change my opinion and even seeing it wouldn't change anything I said. Nowhere in my post was I talking about the story of the match like you think. I'm speaking on if he won or if he lost rather than what the match's story was. The guy could have barely lost and only lost due to 10 demons and getting hit by a truck and yet I'd say the same because from what I've seen in all of his AEW matches he's lost big time matches whether it's barely or by shenanigans. From a wins and losses standpoint with his daredevil persona to me he's the daredevil who's fearless and does great but he hasn't won anything major yet and me? I'm not a fan of that because I'd like him to win matches. I wasn't even talking about why he lost tonight or where they're setting him up, I'm talking about the entirety of what he's been doing at this point because from out of all I've seen from him (everything sans tonight's match) he's had these matches but he just lost barely. Beyond that I even gave him props in my post by saying that yes, he's still young and yes, he's a future world champion. At the same time no, I'm not digging the fact that he's had these big matches lost.

At the end of the day me seeing one match isn't going to make me say "man, that completely overrides everything I thought about him prior" especially when I'm not speaking on the entire story of the match but rather his wins and losses solely.

We're speaking on 2 different things. You're speaking on how he lost the match while I'm speaking on the fact he lost another big named match. I don't care how he lost especially when in my eyes he's barely lost every big named match he's been in.

From what I've seen you comment, I think you're someone who gets storytelling and and plotting in a way a lot of people in the IWC don't. So I'd like to contextualise the story here (Without saying that you have to like the kind of story it is, you absolutely don't)

Typically when we get these sorts of stories the plot remains static until it's not - the young underdog nearly gets the vet, but always gets caught. He's always just barely not good enough.

That hasn't quite been the Darby storyline. If I'm not reading into things too much, I think there's been a clear progression in how he's presented in-ring. Just counting the draws and losses we have:

1) Cody where he wasn't good enough to beat him but couldn't put him away.

2) Jericho where he was presented as being almost able to beat Jericho even with a handcuff. The story there was that this dude was on the champion's level and got outsmarted

3) Moxley, where he straight up lost. A bit of an aberration but Moxley is an aberration in terms of AEW booking where he's presented as on an absolutely different level to everyone. 

4) Cody again. So this time Darby had Cody beat. Dominated the match. Dominated the guy who he could just about hang with during the summer. Darby has Cody set up for his finish, and Cody's almost out. He only gets the knees up because Arn Anderson gets through to him. The story here is that Darby has progressed to the point of being able to beat Cody. He gets outsmarted again, but this time by a legendary coach. The story here is almost that Arn was good enough to save Cody's match, not that Darby was almost good enough to beat Cody. It's a switch in presentation. 

I think we'll see them finally having Darby crack through relatively soon. The pieces are all there and he's rapidly progressed without having to go on an extended rookie losing streak storyline. In kayfabe terms he's now less a plucky rookie and more like Omega is where he has all the tools but hasn't quite put it together in a singles match. He's probably on a par with someone like Hangman Page. 

[King Devitt]

I like how AA's "coaching" is pretty much him getting on the apron like a heel manager, and no one is commenting on that.
I wish Zelina was with Andrade so she could "coach" him more in his matches.



But seriously, Darby is fine. Was I sad to see him lose? yeah.

The dude NEEDS a feud. He needs an angle. All of these nifty Raven-esque vignette's don't mean anything when it's just for a one off match and he loses it.

Save that stuff for him playing mind games with someone. Make it a multi-month feud where Darby is getting in people's heads, and taking the piss out of them.
Have him make videos every week taunting Cody with the Cody mask on.
Show him watching back tape of the previous match studying it.
Give the dude something, he's a certain kind of special, and I know they know that. They just need to give him some direction.

I liked the pre-match thing, but it felt hollow at the end.
That's what's bugging me about him the most. He has the most upside of anyone (MJF's stock has fallen hard since the turn imo), and they need to give him something to sink his teeth into.