|
Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Aug 6, 2021 17:18:23 GMT -5
I liked what someone said on squaredcircle about it that, basically, make your own mind about it. It sucks. It’s far from a perfect answer but that’s about as ideal as the situation seems to present. Believe him. Believe her. Be a fan. Don’t. Etc, etc..
I will ask, how does that make PK look bad when so much of this is blurry and uncertain?
|
|
Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,676
|
Post by Kalmia on Aug 6, 2021 17:35:03 GMT -5
I remember hearing that something had been said about Darby, but I don't recall seeing the actual allegations before. This is all very, very disappointing. I'm always predisposed to believing the victims because the number of false reports is so few, but I also see people saying that AEW investigated it already and were satisfied there was nothing to it. I hope that is genuinely the case and this was "just" a horribly toxic relationship that is better dead and buried.
One thing I will say though, is that coercing someone and putting them in a situation where they're fearful in order to get them to have sex/do sexual things they don't want to do, is 100% rape. It's not a stranger jumping out of a bush in a darkened alley, but neither is it someone consenting freely. I don't know if what is alleged is true, but let's not misconstrue that part.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2021 18:05:01 GMT -5
I remember hearing that something had been said about Darby, but I don't recall seeing the actual allegations before. This is all very, very disappointing. I'm always predisposed to believing the victims because the number of false reports is so few, but I also see people saying that AEW investigated it already and were satisfied there was nothing to it. I hope that is genuinely the case and this was "just" a horribly toxic relationship that is better dead and buried. One thing I will say though, is that coercing someone and putting them in a situation where they're fearful in order to get them to have sex/do sexual things they don't want to do, is 100% rape. It's not a stranger jumping out of a bush in a darkened alley, but neither is it someone consenting freely. I don't know if what is alleged is true, but let's not misconstrue that part. No one has said that threatening somebody or verbally coercing them into a sexual act that they do not want to do isn’t rape. What I have said, and will say again, is that an allegation, after a relationship ends, that consensual sex wasn’t actually consensual because the person realized in retrospect that the relationship was toxic and they were being gaslit is a MUCH more nuanced issue than that. And that’s unequivocally what’s alleged here. This relationship was clearly extremely toxic. But it is categorically unfair to cast these as rape allegations against Darby, I’m sorry. It just is. That is not meant to downplay or trivialize’s Hawlee’s perspective on what happened to her. But it makes me extremely uncomfortable that people are so willing to brazenly throw around “rape allegations” with this situation.
|
|
|
Post by Viking Hall on Aug 6, 2021 18:13:32 GMT -5
It's he said, she said. I'm sure like most toxic relationships with people barely out of their teens both sides said and did some things they're probably not particularly proud of. Young relationships are volatile, I'm sure every one of us has dozens of personal examples we could give, but it's part of life and unless you're incredibly lucky, 99% of us will end up with people that we shouldn't be with at some point in our lives.
I'm not going to sit here and say that the person in question wasn't negatively affected by her previous relationship, because quite frankly, I don't know any of the people involved. But at the same time, am I going to say that someone should be punished for having a bad relationship in the past with accusations that can never be proven and are best, subjective either way? Also no.
|
|
r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,465
|
Post by r. on Aug 6, 2021 18:27:15 GMT -5
I thought we had a board rule about allegations?
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 6, 2021 18:28:53 GMT -5
It's a tough situation. Like I've said before this seems to be a situation where they just brought the toxicity out of each other. It's possible all she said happened and Darby changed, it could all be made it, and it could all be somewhere I'm between. I remember the rumored reports were Darby presented something to Tony Khan and his legal team that convinced them he did nothing abusive bur that he did express remorse to how he acted. So based on that I think Darby was just a miserable person in a bad place and didn't consider what effect his words had on people
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Aug 6, 2021 18:43:06 GMT -5
I remember hearing that something had been said about Darby, but I don't recall seeing the actual allegations before. This is all very, very disappointing. I'm always predisposed to believing the victims because the number of false reports is so few, but I also see people saying that AEW investigated it already and were satisfied there was nothing to it. I hope that is genuinely the case and this was "just" a horribly toxic relationship that is better dead and buried. One thing I will say though, is that coercing someone and putting them in a situation where they're fearful in order to get them to have sex/do sexual things they don't want to do, is 100% rape. It's not a stranger jumping out of a bush in a darkened alley, but neither is it someone consenting freely. I don't know if what is alleged is true, but let's not misconstrue that part. No one has said that threatening somebody or verbally coercing them into a sexual act that they do not want to do isn’t rape. What I have said, and will say again, is that an allegation, after a relationship ends, that consensual sex wasn’t actually consensual because the person realized in retrospect that the relationship was toxic and they were being gaslit is a MUCH more nuanced issue than that. And that’s unequivocally what’s alleged here. This relationship was clearly extremely toxic. But it is categorically unfair to cast these as rape allegations against Darby, I’m sorry. It just is. That is not meant to downplay or trivialize’s Hawlee’s perspective on what happened to her. But it makes me extremely uncomfortable that people are so willing to brazenly throw around “rape allegations” with this situation. I’m having trouble reconciling your first two paragraphs with Hawlee’s allegations. She unequivocally says in her allegations that he threatened her and verbally coerced her into having sex with him and performing various sex acts. “He also would threaten to leave me if I didn’t have sex with him or do sexual things and perform sex acts with him. It took me a long time to realize that threatening someone to have sex with you isn’t consent. It’s rape.“
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2021 19:07:26 GMT -5
No one has said that threatening somebody or verbally coercing them into a sexual act that they do not want to do isn’t rape. What I have said, and will say again, is that an allegation, after a relationship ends, that consensual sex wasn’t actually consensual because the person realized in retrospect that the relationship was toxic and they were being gaslit is a MUCH more nuanced issue than that. And that’s unequivocally what’s alleged here. This relationship was clearly extremely toxic. But it is categorically unfair to cast these as rape allegations against Darby, I’m sorry. It just is. That is not meant to downplay or trivialize’s Hawlee’s perspective on what happened to her. But it makes me extremely uncomfortable that people are so willing to brazenly throw around “rape allegations” with this situation. I’m having trouble reconciling your first two paragraphs with Hawlee’s allegations. She unequivocally says in her allegations that he threatened her and verbally coerced her into having sex with him and performing various sex acts. “He also would threaten to leave me if I didn’t have sex with him or do sexual things and perform sex acts with him. It took me a long time to realize that threatening someone to have sex with you isn’t consent. It’s rape.“ Yeah, she’s saying that in retrospect she now feels that consensual sex in the context of a relationship wasn’t actually consensual because she felt that she was being gaslit and/or threatened with the relationship ending if she didn’t have sex with him. Based upon the texts Priscilla Kelly allegedly sent, the counterpoint to that is that Hawlee didn’t want the relationship to end and emotionally manipulated Darby into not breaking up with her. I’m not going to take sides on a he said/she said like that. I just don’t view a retrospective allegation of relationship toxicity as tantamount to an allegation of rape and find it extraordinarily unfair and dangerous to cast it that way under the particular circumstances of this case. I know others will disagree, but this is one of those things that is always only ever going to be hearsay and he said/she said. Darby won’t be convicted, but he also won’t be exonerated. So, I just don’t understand what else could possibly be done. This is the exact same conversation regarding the exact same issue that was had months ago.
|
|
lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,703
|
Post by lucas_lee on Aug 6, 2021 19:36:32 GMT -5
We honestly don't know what happened between the two. Trying to throw dirt on an accuser is never a good look either
|
|
|
Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 6, 2021 19:42:50 GMT -5
So how much evidence is there on this situation versus something like Riddle’s allegations or Elgin
|
|
Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,676
|
Post by Kalmia on Aug 6, 2021 19:53:31 GMT -5
I’m having trouble reconciling your first two paragraphs with Hawlee’s allegations. She unequivocally says in her allegations that he threatened her and verbally coerced her into having sex with him and performing various sex acts. “He also would threaten to leave me if I didn’t have sex with him or do sexual things and perform sex acts with him. It took me a long time to realize that threatening someone to have sex with you isn’t consent. It’s rape.“ Yeah, she’s saying that in retrospect she now feels that consensual sex in the context of a relationship wasn’t actually consensual because she felt that she was being gaslit and/or threatened with the relationship ending if she didn’t have sex with him. Based upon the texts Priscilla Kelly allegedly sent, the counterpoint to that is that Hawlee didn’t want the relationship to end and emotionally manipulated Darby into not breaking up with her. I’m not going to take sides on a he said/she said like that. I just don’t view a retrospective allegation of relationship toxicity as tantamount to an allegation of rape and find it extraordinarily unfair and dangerous to cast it that way under the particular circumstances of this case. I know others will disagree, but this is one of those things that is always only ever going to be hearsay and he said/she said. Darby won’t be convicted, but he also won’t be exonerated. So, I just don’t understand what else could possibly be done. This is the exact same conversation regarding the exact same issue that was had months ago. I don't know if you misunderstood my initial point or I didn't explain it properly, but I'll try again. If you don't want to do something sexually and someone puts you in a position where you feel you have no choice, that is legally considered rape. It was a general statement, just in case anyone on here decided to pull a Twitter and tried to pretend that rape is only violent and by force (an argument I saw several times before coming on here.) I never said, nor would I, that it was the situation in this case. I simply didn't want the idea to be dismissed as not "rapey" or serious enough to count. Because it is. The horrible thing about situations like this is that it is very much he said/she said. Either someone is getting accused of something horrible that they didn't do, or a crime and deeply traumatic experience is going to be ignored. There are no winners. I truly hope it's a false allegation because I don't want to think that anyone could be subjected to experiences like that only to get torn apart when they spoke out about it. We'll just have to trust that AEW did their due diligence and were somehow able to disprove things, as the rumour goes that they did. And now I'm bowing out of this thread because I don't have anything more to say.
|
|
|
Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Aug 6, 2021 19:57:37 GMT -5
It seems like a mutually toxic relationship.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2021 20:10:42 GMT -5
Yeah, she’s saying that in retrospect she now feels that consensual sex in the context of a relationship wasn’t actually consensual because she felt that she was being gaslit and/or threatened with the relationship ending if she didn’t have sex with him. Based upon the texts Priscilla Kelly allegedly sent, the counterpoint to that is that Hawlee didn’t want the relationship to end and emotionally manipulated Darby into not breaking up with her. I’m not going to take sides on a he said/she said like that. I just don’t view a retrospective allegation of relationship toxicity as tantamount to an allegation of rape and find it extraordinarily unfair and dangerous to cast it that way under the particular circumstances of this case. I know others will disagree, but this is one of those things that is always only ever going to be hearsay and he said/she said. Darby won’t be convicted, but he also won’t be exonerated. So, I just don’t understand what else could possibly be done. This is the exact same conversation regarding the exact same issue that was had months ago. I don't know if you misunderstood my initial point or I didn't explain it properly, but I'll try again. If you don't want to do something sexually and someone puts you in a position where you feel you have no choice, that is legally considered rape. It was a general statement, just in case anyone on here decided to pull a Twitter and tried to pretend that rape is only violent and by force (an argument I saw several times before coming on here.) I never said, nor would I, that it was the situation in this case. I simply didn't want the idea to be dismissed as not "rapey" or serious enough to count. Because it is. The horrible thing about situations like this is that it is very much he said/she said. Either someone is getting accused of something horrible that they didn't do, or a crime and deeply traumatic experience is going to be ignored. There are no winners. I truly hope it's a false allegation because I don't want to think that anyone could be subjected to experiences like that only to get torn apart when they spoke out about it. We'll just have to trust that AEW did their due diligence and were somehow able to disprove things, as the rumour goes that they did. And now I'm bowing out of this thread because I don't have anything more to say. Well, the discussion of what’s “legally” rape is a whole different ball of wax. I’ll tell you that here in Kentucky, there would be a 0% chance that Darby would be convicted of rape even if every single thing she says is absolutely true, because there’s no forcible compulsion as defined by statute. But, really, that’s neither here nor there, and is probably more of an indictment of some states’ laws than anything else. I understand what you’re saying and I respect your opinion. My intention was never to trivialize abuse. The only point I intended to make, and maybe I didn’t articulate it well, is that saying “rape allegations” carries a dire connotation that can truly ruin someone’s life on “allegation” alone, and the situation here is more of an allegation of a toxic, early 20’s relationship. I’m not defending Darby Allin at all, there’s a very good chance he was a mentally abusive asshole. There’s an equally good chance that a jealous ex-girlfriend is trying to knock him off of his pedestal now that he’s become successful. We just don’t know. It’s also peculiar to me that this all broke more than a year ago at this point, and is now breaking again with absolutely no new information or change in circumstance. I just don’t know what the end game is here. Like I said, Darby can’t be convicted, but he also can’t be exonerated. So, what do you do? Suspend the guy because an ex-girlfriend obviously hates his guts?
|
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 10:06:18 GMT -5
It genuinely astonishes me that it matters to people that AEW exonerated one of their own hottest prospects in a completely nontransparent process, as if they did not have every incentive in the world to lean in his direction on their judgement.
I have no strong opinion what happened between these two people, because I don't know enough. I am inclined to think she's telling the truth because that's stastically speaking the likely way to bet in these situations. But AEW's opinion on the matter isn't worth a toss because they are not a neutral party when Darby is a valuable asset to them and his ex isn't. There is not exactly a shortage of examples of why one would think they might look very hard in the other direction to avoid losing Darby.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 10:27:57 GMT -5
It genuinely astonishes me that it matters to people that AEW exonerated one of their own hottest prospects in a completely nontransparent process, as if they did not have every incentive in the world to lean in his direction on their judgement. I have no strong opinion what happened between these two people, because I don't know enough. I am inclined to think she's telling the truth because that's stastically speaking the likely way to bet in these situations. But AEW's opinion on the matter isn't worth a toss because they are not a neutral party when Darby is a valuable asset to them and his ex isn't. There is not exactly a shortage of examples of why one would think they might look very hard in the other direction to avoid losing Darby. For me, he hasn't been exonerated, but he also hasn't been convicted. He won't be exonerated and he won't be convicted, because of the hearsay and subjective nature of allegations like this. So, I just question the purpose of discussing this a year after the fact. My opinion of Darby has certainly changed. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. I think more negatively of him than I did because he was likely a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s. What more can possibly happen beyond that, though? It's a bridge too far to me to suspend or fire someone over being in a toxic relationship years prior. I don't think anyone is lying, but the "truth" is subjective when it comes to retrospective allegations of emotional and mental abuse in the context of an otherwise consensual relationship.
|
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 18:18:53 GMT -5
So, I just question the purpose of discussing this a year after the fact. My opinion of Darby has certainly changed. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. I think more negatively of him than I did because he was likely a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s. What more can possibly happen beyond that, though? It's a bridge too far to me to suspend or fire someone over being in a toxic relationship years prior. I don't think anyone is lying, but the "truth" is subjective when it comes to retrospective allegations of emotional and mental abuse in the context of an otherwise consensual relationship. The purpose is that the alleged victim brought it up again, very likely due to how it dropped without trace and Darby had no significant repercussions for it, nor did it significantly hurt him in fan reaction. In other words, so it not be forgotten (there was also some new evidence presented, albeit on a tertiary matter). Indeed, what was your own comment on the matter? "At least right now, googling Darby Allin doesn't even bring up anything referencing this story." Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Darby did mentally abuse and gaslight his ex for sex (because, statistically speaking, it's likely she's telling the truth). If that's the case, then he has not openly apologised, admitted guilt, done anything to publically change or take responsibility for his actions, or suffered any significant consequence whatsoever. Saying "well, it would be hard to prove he did it" is entirely beside the point - given that is is very likely he did it, then I can certainly see why the victim sees what happened as an injustice, and I also see why it's worthwhile keeping it in people's thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Aug 10, 2021 18:52:57 GMT -5
So, I just question the purpose of discussing this a year after the fact. My opinion of Darby has certainly changed. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. I think more negatively of him than I did because he was likely a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s. What more can possibly happen beyond that, though? It's a bridge too far to me to suspend or fire someone over being in a toxic relationship years prior. I don't think anyone is lying, but the "truth" is subjective when it comes to retrospective allegations of emotional and mental abuse in the context of an otherwise consensual relationship. The purpose is that the alleged victim brought it up again, very likely due to how it dropped without trace and Darby had no significant repercussions for it, nor did it significantly hurt him in fan reaction. In other words, so it not be forgotten (there was also some new evidence presented, albeit on a tertiary matter). Indeed, what was your own comment on the matter? "At least right now, googling Darby Allin doesn't even bring up anything referencing this story." Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Darby did mentally abuse and gaslight his ex for sex (because, statistically speaking, it's likely she's telling the truth). If that's the case, then he has not openly apologised, admitted guilt, done anything to publically change or take responsibility for his actions, or suffered any significant consequence whatsoever. Saying "well, it would be hard to prove he did it" is entirely beside the point - given that is is very likely he did it, then I can certainly see why the victim sees what happened as an injustice, and I also see why it's worthwhile keeping it in people's thoughts. What’s the “new evidence”?
|
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 19:02:07 GMT -5
The DM from Priscilla, which is why I said it was on a tertiary matter (but Priscilla had been, essentially, a character witness for Darby when this originally came out, so her harassing his accuser and essentially going "your assault wasn't valid because it's not the same as mine" is relevent to that).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 19:11:21 GMT -5
The DM from Priscilla, which is why I said it was on a tertiary matter (but Priscilla had been, essentially, a character witness for Darby when this originally came out, so her harassing his accuser and essentially going "your assault wasn't valid because it's not the same as mine" is relevent to that). That purported “new evidence” cuts both ways, though. Priscilla strongly implies (and, really, outright states) that Hawlee repeatedly tried to keep the relationship going and is bringing all of this up now that Darby’s successful out of a place of vindictiveness. Again, I’m not comfortable casting judgment as to a he said/she said. Now, none of this excuses fans of Darby from harassing Hawlee or trying to invalidate her perception of what occurred, which is apparently what prompted this to all be dredged up again. No one has been able to explain to me what, exactly, AEW as Darby’s employer is supposed to do here, though. If it were a fireable offense to have an ex-partner from a toxic relationship come forward years after the fact and say “that guy was an asshole when we were dating,” then there would be a LOT of people out of a job. Again, I don’t intend to trivialize Hawlee’s allegations here, but, at the end of the day, that’s all she’s alleged. Darby may well have been a gaslighting asshole in their relationship. Or, Hawlee may just be being vindictive. Nothing is EVER going to be conclusively “proven” one way or the other in a situation like this. So, I think, at a certain point the court of public opinion needs to cast its judgment and adjourn.
|
|
Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
|
Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 19:26:41 GMT -5
That purported “new evidence” cuts both ways, though. Priscilla strongly implies (and, really, outright states) that Hawlee repeatedly tried to keep the relationship going and is bringing all of this up now that Darby’s successful out of a place of vindictiveness. Again, I’m not comfortable casting judgment as to a he said/she said. Bluntly, that does not cut both ways at all. Whether or not Hawlee tried to keep the relationship going has literally nothing to do with whether she was abused, and saying so is playing into common rape myths. No one has been able to explain to me what, exactly, AEW as Darby’s employer is supposed to do here, though. Here's what I think they should do, then. 1) Actually acknowledge the accusation. 2) Have Darby respond directly to it. If he claims that it never happened, explain what evidence he produced to support that claim (don't actually post it, for privacy reasons, but explain generally what it is; i.e., text messages). If he claims that he was young, made mistakes, it was a "both sides" thing, whatever, then treat him in a way appropriate to his level of remorse, whether he seems to have learned, what other people say about him, et cetera. Since it is very unlikely he did not do what he is accused of doing, I would expect something that shows he's not the same person anymore (such as donating his salary for a month to an appropriate charity, speaking out about why he acted wrongly and why you shouldn't do this, a public apology, etc). If he's unwilling to do this and there is no compelling evidence he's been falsely accused, then disciplinary action as appropriate should be taken, to show this kind of behavior is not tolerated simply because you are a big star. Naturally, of course, AEW doesn't want to do this because Darby IS a big star and would much prefer this all went away and didn't harm their bottom line. That is precisely why I find it astonishing people put any weight whatsoever into AEW's completely untransparent internal investigation of the matter, which is almost certainly more driven by "How bad will we look, and what liability are we likely to face?" than "What should we do, ethically? What message does this send?"
|
|