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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 19:48:04 GMT -5
That purported “new evidence” cuts both ways, though. Priscilla strongly implies (and, really, outright states) that Hawlee repeatedly tried to keep the relationship going and is bringing all of this up now that Darby’s successful out of a place of vindictiveness. Again, I’m not comfortable casting judgment as to a he said/she said. Bluntly, that does not cut both ways at all. Whether or not Hawlee tried to keep the relationship going has literally nothing to do with whether she was abused, and saying so is playing into common rape myths. No one has been able to explain to me what, exactly, AEW as Darby’s employer is supposed to do here, though. Here's what I think they should do, then. 1) Actually acknowledge the accusation. 2) Have Darby respond directly to it. If he claims that it never happened, explain what evidence he produced to support that claim (don't actually post it, for privacy reasons, but explain generally what it is; i.e., text messages). If he claims that he was young, made mistakes, it was a "both sides" thing, whatever, then treat him in a way appropriate to his level of remorse, whether he seems to have learned, what other people say about him, et cetera. Since it is very unlikely he did not do what he is accused of doing, I would expect something that shows he's not the same person anymore (such as donating his salary for a month to an appropriate charity, speaking out about why he acted wrongly and why you shouldn't do this, a public apology, etc). If he's unwilling to do this and there is no compelling evidence he's been falsely accused, then disciplinary action as appropriate should be taken, to show this kind of behavior is not tolerated simply because you are a big star. Naturally, of course, AEW doesn't want to do this because Darby IS a big star and would much prefer this all went away and didn't harm their bottom line. That is precisely why I find it astonishing people put any weight whatsoever into AEW's completely untransparent internal investigation of the matter, which is almost certainly more driven by "How bad will we look, and what liability are we likely to face?" than "What should we do, ethically? What message does this send?" I disagree strongly that AEW should acknowledge this situation publicly for a litany of reasons that I’ve articulated in prior posts, and resent the implication that I am “playing into rape myths.” The DM was inappropriate and portrays Priscilla Kelly in a negative light, but it is objectively also a glimpse into Darby’s “side” of the story, so to speak. So it absolutely cuts both ways if we’re going to choose to view it as some kind of probative evidence. I also disagree strongly that it’s “very likely that he did what’s accused” based on what’s known. It’s very clear that he and Hawlee have different perceptions of what occurred and why their relationship ended. Neither side can be “proven right” or “proven wrong.” That’s not because Darby’s a big star, that’s just because of the nature of what’s alleged. This is not like the Riddle allegations (or, in the broader world of sports, the Trevor Bauer allegations) where there is an element of force and physical harm. This is an allegation of “in retrospect, having reevaluated my prior relationship, I now believe that consensual activity may not have been consensual because I was being gaslit and emotionally abused.” In other words, it’s not a situation where anyone has to be lying but, rather, where those involved can have a different perception of the “truth.” If allegations of that nature were made against a bottom of the barrel lower carder I would feel the exact same way. I feel like I’ve said my piece on this issue, and, believe me, the last thing I want to do is come across like I’m victim blaming and/or trivializing domestic abuse and relationship toxicity. That was never my intention, and I believe that Hawlee clearly had a very negative experience in her relationship with Darby, and suffered mentally and emotionally due to it. My intention was only to point out that it’s rarely, if ever, appropriate for an employer to intervene in a situation like this, and I will continue to stand by that unless and until there’s some sort of substantiation that Darby is guilty of something beyond having been in a relationship that went sour and turned toxic.
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Blade
Don Corleone
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Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 21:37:22 GMT -5
Actually, my point was that Priscilla was playing into rape myths (by arguing what happened to the victim was not "real rape"). I apologise for my lack of clarity. Though, I guess you could say I was also criticising you for not recognising that, but it wasn't really my intent; largely because while I strongly disagree with you that what Darby is being accused of is in fact rape, I don't think it's productive to argue that point here.
You're right, neither side can be "proven right" or "proven wrong" with the evidence we have. But the statistical nature of the evidence we have about sexual assault in general is that if someone is accused of, say, using gaslighting and emotional abuse to get someone to have sex with them, it is extremely likely that is exactly what they did. And that is why I believe it is very likely that is exactly what he did, rather than humouring the hypothesis that she isn't telling (in the main) the truth as anything other than a far-fetched possibility.
As for the rest, you said "Nobody has said what the employer should do". I told you what I think the employer should do. That you disagree with what I think they should do doesn't mean I haven't answered your demand. I think it is very appropriate for the employer to intervene in a situation like this, because otherwise they send the message that the ethics of the situation are subordinate to his value as a asset to the company (which of course they are, which is why AEW's untransparent internal investigation does not satisfy me in the slightest).
Here's something I find interesting about what you said, however. You state here that:
"I will continue to stand by that unless and until there’s some sort of substantiation that Darby is guilty of something beyond having been in a relationship that went sour and turned toxic."
Okay. But earlier you stated this:
"My opinion of Darby has certainly changed. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. I think more negatively of him than I did because he was likely a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s."
To me, those two statements are... if not contradictory, than certainly containing some odd unspoken assumptions. If Darby is guilty of nothing beyond having been in a relationship that went sour and turned toxic, if that is a really serious possibility, then... why would your opinion change of him? And if that is because you think it is likely that the allegations are true and he was a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s... then why shouldn't his employers also treat these allegations as likely true and take appropriate steps?
It seems to me that you are enforcing a separation that shouldn't be there. AEW is not a court of law; their responsibility here is a social responsibility. If it is likely Darby Allin did what he was accused of (and we in fact seem to be in agreement that it is), then AEW should act accordingly. They should certainly at least acknowledge it. To do otherwise: to continue to employ and spotlight him without even acknowledging what he is accused of, is to absolutely be an accessory as they are covering for him and helping sweep the matter under the carpet.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Aug 10, 2021 22:27:26 GMT -5
The DM from Priscilla, which is why I said it was on a tertiary matter (but Priscilla had been, essentially, a character witness for Darby when this originally came out, so her harassing his accuser and essentially going "your assault wasn't valid because it's not the same as mine" is relevent to that). Think it’s terribly misleading to call that “evidence”. Even with any kind of qualifier. I do think there’s validity in wondering why no kind of acknowledgment was made by the company or Darby himself. Cause IIRC it was just assumed or reported by some news source that the investigation was made, texts and/or evidence were shown, and the company found it satisfactory and would continue using him. If my memory serves me correct there was a time when Darby wasn’t used but don’t quote me on that. I’m speaking out of ignorance because we only have the account of the accuser and PK but if the situation was a toxic relationship both ways, perhaps that’s why Darby and the company are hesitant to acknowledge any details on their behalf. Perhaps it portrays the accuser in a negative light and would only further embroil the girl into the situation and bring upon negative attention. So in saying that...yes, there might be some aid in getting some or any kind of statement on Darby or AEW’s behalf. I trust AEW & Tony Khan. Not fully cause I don’t trust any entity or person fully but for being a company, I trust them quite the bit. I also respect those who aren’t satisfied with AEW and/or Darby’s response & would encourage those individuals to vote with their wallet. Or try and relay some kind of message out towards the company that they demand a sliver of transparency on the issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 22:29:49 GMT -5
Actually, my point was that Priscilla was playing into rape myths (by arguing what happened to the victim was not "real rape"). I apologise for my lack of clarity. Though, I guess you could say I was also criticising you for not recognising that, but it wasn't really my intent; largely because while I strongly disagree with you that what Darby is being accused of is in fact rape, I don't think it's productive to argue that point here. You're right, neither side can be "proven right" or "proven wrong" with the evidence we have. But the statistical nature of the evidence we have about sexual assault in general is that if someone is accused of, say, using gaslighting and emotional abuse to get someone to have sex with them, it is extremely likely that is exactly what they did. And that is why I believe it is very likely that is exactly what he did, rather than humouring the hypothesis that she isn't telling (in the main) the truth as anything other than a far-fetched possibility. As for the rest, you said "Nobody has said what the employer should do". I told you what I think the employer should do. That you disagree with what I think they should do doesn't mean I haven't answered your demand. I think it is very appropriate for the employer to intervene in a situation like this, because otherwise they send the message that the ethics of the situation are subordinate to his value as a asset to the company (which of course they are, which is why AEW's untransparent internal investigation does not satisfy me in the slightest). Here's something I find interesting about what you said, however. You state here that: "I will continue to stand by that unless and until there’s some sort of substantiation that Darby is guilty of something beyond having been in a relationship that went sour and turned toxic." Okay. But earlier you stated this: "My opinion of Darby has certainly changed. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. I think more negatively of him than I did because he was likely a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s." To me, those two statements are... if not contradictory, than certainly containing some odd unspoken assumptions. If Darby is guilty of nothing beyond having been in a relationship that went sour and turned toxic, if that is a really serious possibility, then... why would your opinion change of him? And if that is because you think it is likely that the allegations are true and he was a mentally abusive gaslighter in his early 20s... then why shouldn't his employers also treat these allegations as likely true and take appropriate steps? It seems to me that you are enforcing a separation that shouldn't be there. AEW is not a court of law; their responsibility here is a social responsibility. If it is likely Darby Allin did what he was accused of (and we in fact seem to be in agreement that it is), then AEW should act accordingly. They should certainly at least acknowledge it. To do otherwise: to continue to employ and spotlight him without even acknowledging what he is accused of, is to absolutely be an accessory as they are covering for him and helping sweep the matter under the carpet. Just for the record, I was not saying that the fact that an abuse victim returns to their abuser is evidence that the abuse did not occur. I obviously do not believe that. That’s the part of Priscilla’s alleged statement that paints her in a very negative light. I was more focusing on Priscilla’s implication that the accusations were timed right when Darby became nationally known as evincing that there may a vindictive motive here. I don’t know who to believe, and it’s not my place to. I believe, based on the accusations and response alone, that this relationship between Darby and Hawlee was toxic to an extent that Hawlee believed that she was mentally abused and gaslit. That alone is enough to change my opinion of Darby for the negative. I’m not, however, willing to take that bridge to believing that it’s likely that Darby is guilty of intentionally coercing Hawlee into sex against her will, based upon what’s known. So, sure, in a manner of speaking I think it’s more likely than not Darby is “guilty” of something (having been involved in a toxic relationship), but it’s not likely that he’s committed a crime that would warrant employer intervention. All of this allegedly happened well before Darby was employed with AEW, and the allegations are entirely contained within his personal relationship. The allegations are of a nature that no one can be “guilty” and no one can be “innocent.” Clearly, Hawlee truly believes that Darby “treated her like garbage,” as she put it in her most recent tweet. She has expressed her opinion that Darby “is bad” and that people should “be careful.” Obviously, Darby disagrees with this assessment. Neither is right and neither is wrong. But nothing is going to convince me that this is an appropriate situation for an employer to get involved in at this juncture. I’ve given my reasons for that throughout this thread. Fade had it right earlier in the thread - believe him. Believe her. Believe neither. Be a fan. Don’t be a fan. This is a court of public opinion issue, and it was resolved a year ago. I understand that some people strongly disagree with me, and will not be satisfied until AEW conducts a full and “transparent” investigation and releases a report of its “findings.” And, that Darby should be disciplined accordingly. That’s fine, we can agree to disagree. Personally, I don’t know what an “investigation” accomplishes in a situation like this one other than having Hawlee say “this happened,” and Darby/Priscilla saying “no it didn’t.” You just can’t punish a guy for that. Even acknowledging these allegations puts AEW in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation for all of the reasons I stated before. Maybe that’s not a “good” reason not to publicly address the situation for some, and I get that, but it’s enough of a reason for me in a situation like this. Anyway, I’ve made my opinion known, and I appreciate the counterpoints that have been made. I don’t really have anything else to say. I don’t think AEW is going to acknowledge this publicly, so that just adds another layer to the “court of public opinion.” The company is certainly going to draw criticism from some for that decision.
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Blade
Don Corleone
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Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 23:28:24 GMT -5
Think it’s terribly misleading to call that “evidence”. Even with any kind of qualifier. To be clear, the reason I call it evidence is because Priscilla's opinion of Darby and ongoing relationship with him was used as evidence in his favour - she was a character witness for him in the court of public opinion. Finding out that she is harassing the victim and has a very bad take on what is "real" sexual assault is relevent to how much weight her words about Darby's character should carry. But it's also a tertiary matter not directly relevent to the original accusation, so I called it that too.
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Blade
Don Corleone
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Post by Blade on Aug 10, 2021 23:48:18 GMT -5
I understand that some people strongly disagree with me, and will not be satisfied until AEW conducts a full and “transparent” investigation and releases a report of its “findings.” And, that Darby should be disciplined accordingly. That’s fine, we can agree to disagree. Personally, I don’t know what an “investigation” accomplishes in a situation like this one other than having Hawlee say “this happened,” and Darby/Priscilla saying “no it didn’t.” You just can’t punish a guy for that. Even acknowledging these allegations puts AEW in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation for all of the reasons I stated before. Maybe that’s not a “good” reason not to publicly address the situation for some, and I get that, but it’s enough of a reason for me in a situation like this. Anyway, I’ve made my opinion known, and I appreciate the counterpoints that have been made. I don’t really have anything else to say. I don’t think AEW is going to acknowledge this publicly, so that just adds another layer to the “court of public opinion.” The company is certainly going to draw criticism from some for that decision. Firstly, I appreciate your clarification of your thoughts, although I don't entirely agree (I think it is quite possible for Darby to be entirely guilty or entirely innocent, we just are unlikely to ever have evidence to prove it). With regards to what I think a transparent investigation accomplishes, here is the thing: I think it is an entirely valid choice for AEW to say "We have heard the allegations, we have talked to Darby, and based upon speaking with him and the evidence we presented to us (if there was any) we have decided not to further pursue the matter." Because that puts on the record what they've done, and how and why they've chosen to (not) proceed. It's transparent, in a way what they have actually done (say nothing, seemingly do nothing) is not. Then they can deal with the court of public opinion on how seriously they do and should take sexual assault allegations instead of hiding from it. (This would not necessarily even be a bad move business-wise. IF Darby has no other metaphorical skeletons in his closet - as opposed to literal ones, which wouldn't surprise me - the nature of the allegations means this probably would disappear from public consciousness pretty quickly.) But that isn't what they did at all. Whether or not they did anything internally, they have made no public response to this. This is almost certainly because AEW would prefer the allegations quietly vanished from everyone's memory. And here's where we differ on whether this is appropriate for AEW to do. AEW is trying to avoid having to address these allegations, but they are not an uninvolved bystander. They are his employers and are pushing him on an international stage. That sends a very clear message that they think Darby Allin is a suitable representative for their company and brand. And if AEW refuses to acknowledge the allegations about him (as opposed to acknowledging them, saying what you did about it, and the conclusions you came to to make the decision to keep pushing Darby), that also sends a very clear message and it is not a good one: that sexual assault allegations are not important enough to address when it comes to their top stars if they think they can weasel out of addressing them without leaving themselves legally liable or taking a huge public relations hit.
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Post by Viking Hall on Aug 11, 2021 3:32:47 GMT -5
I think this thread is a good example of why it's probably not been acknowledged more publicly. The last few posts are differing opinions (expressed very articulately may I add) and neither is inherently wrong. So in turn, making a public statement is a lose/lose situation for AEW. If they come out in support of Darby, there's no way they have any real supporting evidence in what was essentially an emotional issue. However, equally, the opposite applies too.
As for Darby not making a public statement, well, his private life is his private life and he's not indebted to us (the general public) to discuss anything about his private life, be it good, bad or indifferent. He clearly feels that this is a private issue, and to add his opinion to the fire would be to stoke the flames as it were. Unfortunately, for those who want a resolution, this is (to put it bluntly) a matter of differing opinion between two people. Neither will agree with each other, which just means an eternity of going around in circles.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 11, 2021 6:16:10 GMT -5
Yes, wanted to add here that I’m glad we’re discussing this maturely. I feel safe saying that we haven’t had an example yet of someone wielding victim blaming tactics and we’ve had acknowledgments that this is a tough situation that we can’t really know the full answer to for ourselves, so it’s good to recognize that the posters in here aren’t personally espousing harmful stereotypes or ideologies. If we can maintain this tone it’d be much appreciated, particularly by the staff.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 11, 2021 12:47:17 GMT -5
I really respect the discussion on this not escalating despite being such a difficult topic.
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