Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,073
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 19, 2020 3:25:36 GMT -5
SANADA is someone who I feel like has a high ceiling, but even if he signs, Ibushi would be getting the heavy push this year, I think. He took one for the team for Naito and Okada to get their payoff, and I think that this year's WK is a good time to solidify Ibushi as one of the pillars of the company.
SANADA needs to probably look into getting another finisher, since I don't think a dude his size should rely on the moonsault long term. Ask Mutoh how his knees are doing. Skull End is also just not a great finisher, either, though it's not like Naito's Destino being kinda meh as a finisher holds him back, so what do I know?
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 19, 2020 3:32:40 GMT -5
Boy. I don’t miss Ibushi being Omega’s fall guy at all. Happy the guy signed and is getting all the trophies and acclaim he deserves. Keep the door closed, weld it shut. Then build another door. What is there that'd remotely imply that'd happen, though? If Ibushi was ever his fall guy, and I don't agree that he was, it was because Ibushi wasn't under contract, so his ceiling was always going to be quite low compared to the top gaijin who they had under contract. Like, in what world would NJPW have been favoring Ibushi of the two when that was still the case? Now, though, it's a different situation, and ROH has, charitably, half the exposure AEW has, and probably less than that. Door's not liking staying shut if NJPW is remotely serious about Western expansion in a timely manner, especially given CMLL shitting the bed, too, and trying to f*** over RUSH and Dragon Lee and screwing up the relationship that would have gotten in the way before given AAA talent popping up on AEW shows. Ibushi was never in this position because he didn't sign a deal. Omega was completely loyal to NJPW to the point where he lived out there and took on their culture. You can argue their was a chance he would never leave there but he was one of their own and not just a simple foreigner. Ibushi is getting the IWGP championship. HIS TIME IS NOW!!! Since he signed the contract almost two years ago his success has been the highest winning the IC title a few times, winning the G1 twice and going to the finals 3 straight times, and beating every top star they have. In regards to the "forbidden door" I still stand by it does more for AEW then NJPW. Neither really need each other nor am I interested in seeing it. Half the people that works in AEW have already worked in NJPW while AEW would obviously get a big boost with Tana, Ibushi, Okada, etc. It is a pipe dream and will remain one because there is no "equal" give and take especially when NJPW is trying to get a foothold in America.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 19, 2020 3:37:39 GMT -5
In regards to SANADA finishers, they are fine. He just needs to put more effort into the Skull End like when he first got to NJPW Tho I think TKO is a good standing finisher for him since he can easily still use the Skull End and Moonsault from it
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,073
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 19, 2020 3:43:06 GMT -5
What is there that'd remotely imply that'd happen, though? If Ibushi was ever his fall guy, and I don't agree that he was, it was because Ibushi wasn't under contract, so his ceiling was always going to be quite low compared to the top gaijin who they had under contract. Like, in what world would NJPW have been favoring Ibushi of the two when that was still the case? Now, though, it's a different situation, and ROH has, charitably, half the exposure AEW has, and probably less than that. Door's not liking staying shut if NJPW is remotely serious about Western expansion in a timely manner, especially given CMLL shitting the bed, too, and trying to f*** over RUSH and Dragon Lee and screwing up the relationship that would have gotten in the way before given AAA talent popping up on AEW shows. Ibushi was never in this position because he didn't sign a deal. Omega was completely loyal to NJPW to the point where he lived out there and took on their culture. You can argue their was a chance he would never leave there but he was one of their own and not just a simple foreigner. Ibushi is getting the IWGP championship. HIS TIME IS NOW!!! Since he signed the contract almost two years ago his success has been the highest winning the IC title a few times, winning the G1 twice and going to the finals 3 straight times, and beating every top star they have. In regards to the "forbidden door" I still stand by it does more for AEW then NJPW. Neither really need each other nor am I interested in seeing it. Half the people that works in AEW have already worked in NJPW while AEW would obviously get a big boost with Tana, Ibushi, Okada, etc. It is a pipe dream and will remain one because there is no "equal" give and take especially when NJPW is trying to get a foothold in America. Right, Ibushi is going to be sitting pretty, and he should be. He's got all the tools. He is a handsome man in a company where good looks honestly play a huge part in someone being a top guy, he's a great wrestler who is both agile and deceptively strong, and he is able to demonstrate a genuine mean streak in the ring. I think a top face requires me as a fan to still think, "Oh, he's f***ed now" if a heel pisses off the face, and Ibushi can go to war with Suzuki, etc, and more than hold his own. I can't say the same for say, Juice just yet, though Juice is working on that. I hope they can do business so that NJPW can be bigger to further prevent basically the most disastrous thing that could happen to Japanese wrestling: NXT Japan would be an absolute blight, because even if it would fail, it'd lead to further homogenization and Japanese wrestling would lose a lot of identity in the process. The stronger NJPW, NOAH, and AJPW are, the better. I doubt it's going to ever be a situation where they're joined at the hip, but somewhere for possible excursions isn't out of the realm of possibility, though I wonder if they want to do US excursions as much with their LA Dojo or not. I hope so, given that half the point is having people come back to NJPW with some unique style, something they will not have if they all are latched onto Shibata's teat firmly, but we'll see how it goes.
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,073
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 19, 2020 3:46:01 GMT -5
In regards to SANADA finishers, they are fine. He just needs to put more effort into the Skull End like when he first got to NJPW Tho I think TKO is a good standing finisher for him since he can easily still use the Skull End and Moonsault from it I'll never turn down a TKO, plus I just think SANADA could do more to play off of the fact he's got a pretty decent size by NJPW standards. Like, it's not shocking WWE has apparently barked at his door before, but I do hope he puts his name on a contract. He's immensely popular, and I think looks more ready every year. Like, he's not on Ibushi's level right now, but I think he's more ready than Jay White was when he first got the belt.
|
|
|
Post by ANuclearError on Oct 19, 2020 4:14:33 GMT -5
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,852
|
Post by Dub H on Oct 19, 2020 5:33:26 GMT -5
The idea that Ibushi was ever Omega's fall guy is ridiculous
Omega whole journey is basically how he was always worse than Ibushi. It is clear NJPW always wanted Ibushi to be a big deal and sign with them.
|
|
|
Post by AwamoriRock on Oct 19, 2020 7:04:42 GMT -5
The idea that Ibushi was ever Omega's fall guy is ridiculous Omega whole journey is basically how he was always worse than Ibushi. It is clear NJPW always wanted Ibushi to be a big deal and sign with them. I wouldn’t be that harsh but....Ibushi deserved more than the really bad angles/matches he got sucked into than he got. He wasn’t a fall guy no doubt, but a talent like his who was well established before NJPW could have been involved in more than a weird civil war/Kenny angle with no payoff. Of course NJPW has always wanted Ibushi to be huge for them, but they’re big on branding stars as their own. Even without “long term booking” he was going to have to commit before getting a run. Thinking he was being underused and them wanting him to be huge aren’t mutually exclusive, I think. I have a lot of grievances with NJPW booking (namely bad thing happening and good thing happening later coincidentally = definitely deliberate long term booking), but the structure they abide by means there will always be champion deserving heavies who wait in the wings until an angle larger than theirs wraps up I guess. I don’t always like it but they’re obviously successful with it
|
|
Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,037
|
Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Oct 19, 2020 7:34:43 GMT -5
What is there that'd remotely imply that'd happen, though? If Ibushi was ever his fall guy, and I don't agree that he was, it was because Ibushi wasn't under contract, so his ceiling was always going to be quite low compared to the top gaijin who they had under contract. Like, in what world would NJPW have been favoring Ibushi of the two when that was still the case? Now, though, it's a different situation, and ROH has, charitably, half the exposure AEW has, and probably less than that. Door's not liking staying shut if NJPW is remotely serious about Western expansion in a timely manner, especially given CMLL shitting the bed, too, and trying to f*** over RUSH and Dragon Lee and screwing up the relationship that would have gotten in the way before given AAA talent popping up on AEW shows. Ibushi was never in this position because he didn't sign a deal. Omega was completely loyal to NJPW to the point where he lived out there and took on their culture. You can argue their was a chance he would never leave there but he was one of their own and not just a simple foreigner. Ibushi is getting the IWGP championship. HIS TIME IS NOW!!! Since he signed the contract almost two years ago his success has been the highest winning the IC title a few times, winning the G1 twice and going to the finals 3 straight times, and beating every top star they have. In regards to the "forbidden door" I still stand by it does more for AEW then NJPW. Neither really need each other nor am I interested in seeing it. Half the people that works in AEW have already worked in NJPW while AEW would obviously get a big boost with Tana, Ibushi, Okada, etc. It is a pipe dream and will remain one because there is no "equal" give and take especially when NJPW is trying to get a foothold in America. That's always been my hang up as well. It benefits New Japan only in giving them a reputation of a promotion that can play ball.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,109
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 19, 2020 7:47:21 GMT -5
The idea that Ibushi was ever Omega's fall guy is ridiculous Omega whole journey is basically how he was always worse than Ibushi. It is clear NJPW always wanted Ibushi to be a big deal and sign with them. I wouldn’t be that harsh but....Ibushi deserved more than the really bad angles/matches he got sucked into than he got. He wasn’t a fall guy no doubt, but a talent like his who was well established before NJPW could have been involved in more than a weird civil war/Kenny angle with no payoff. Of course NJPW has always wanted Ibushi to be huge for them, but they’re big on branding stars as their own. Even without “long term booking” he was going to have to commit before getting a run. Thinking he was being underused and them wanting him to be huge aren’t mutually exclusive, I think. I have a lot of grievances with NJPW booking (namely bad thing happening and good thing happening later coincidentally = definitely deliberate long term booking), but the structure they abide by means there will always be champion deserving heavies who wait in the wings until an angle larger than theirs wraps up I guess. I don’t always like it but they’re obviously successful with it A lot of the "Kenny's Sidekick" perspective comes from the Golden Lovers reunion and the Civil War angle, where it seemed like in every backstage promo, Ibushi would just be all "I don't want to talk, let [Kenny] do all the talking."
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Oct 19, 2020 16:08:57 GMT -5
There’s also a translation issue where there probably aren’t the staff to cover those sort of stories or the interest for many international stories not related to their own talent. Like, getting news from Mexico promotions outside of headlines seems to be a real headache with mistranslations or lacking of real context so it seems to be the same for Japan. Not that it excuses anything but the cultural nature comes into it too. That's on NJPW tho They need to be better than that. In the end, I just don't think they care. It is very WWE of them of saying it didn't happen on our watch or we are just going to ignore it unless someone makes a big deal about it This stuff with Will should be cut and dry like it was Elgin. Both guys were allowed to continue to work and eventually Elgin was stopped being used as much but they are banking on Will because he has committed to them and it is going to take a lot for them to punish him much less get rid of him I think the Elgin stuff didn't even affect his spot until they did an American or ROH crossover show and the crowd had absolutely none of it.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 19, 2020 16:16:03 GMT -5
Ibushi was never in this position because he didn't sign a deal. Omega was completely loyal to NJPW to the point where he lived out there and took on their culture. You can argue their was a chance he would never leave there but he was one of their own and not just a simple foreigner. Ibushi is getting the IWGP championship. HIS TIME IS NOW!!! Since he signed the contract almost two years ago his success has been the highest winning the IC title a few times, winning the G1 twice and going to the finals 3 straight times, and beating every top star they have. In regards to the "forbidden door" I still stand by it does more for AEW then NJPW. Neither really need each other nor am I interested in seeing it. Half the people that works in AEW have already worked in NJPW while AEW would obviously get a big boost with Tana, Ibushi, Okada, etc. It is a pipe dream and will remain one because there is no "equal" give and take especially when NJPW is trying to get a foothold in America. That's always been my hang up as well. It benefits New Japan only in giving them a reputation of a promotion that can play ball. Exactly my point. NJPW has people under their wins and at this point is big enough to forge their own relationships. People expect this relationship to give them access to Naito, Tanahashi etc like it was in TNA but that isn't the case You might get the occasional sighting of Ishii or Suzuki since they travel but NJPW would want them to help feed their Young Lions system and highly doubt AEW signing on to be a feeder for young wrestlers until they go back to Japan and be big time
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 19, 2020 16:17:16 GMT -5
That's on NJPW tho They need to be better than that. In the end, I just don't think they care. It is very WWE of them of saying it didn't happen on our watch or we are just going to ignore it unless someone makes a big deal about it This stuff with Will should be cut and dry like it was Elgin. Both guys were allowed to continue to work and eventually Elgin was stopped being used as much but they are banking on Will because he has committed to them and it is going to take a lot for them to punish him much less get rid of him I think the Elgin stuff didn't even affect his spot until they did an American or ROH crossover show and the crowd had absolutely none of it. Which is most likely why Will would not be crazy enough to come over here and if NJPW is that blind, they will see what happens because fans is not taking any of Will shit
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,109
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 20, 2020 0:55:57 GMT -5
That's always been my hang up as well. It benefits New Japan only in giving them a reputation of a promotion that can play ball. Exactly my point. NJPW has people under their wins and at this point is big enough to forge their own relationships. People expect this relationship to give them access to Naito, Tanahashi etc like it was in TNA but that isn't the case You might get the occasional sighting of Ishii or Suzuki since they travel but NJPW would want them to help feed their Young Lions system and highly doubt AEW signing on to be a feeder for young wrestlers until they go back to Japan and be big time It seems to me the big things people would want out of such a relationship are : A) Umino reunited with Mox, and B) Either a Kenny/Ibushi Romance Angle or a Kenny/Ibushi feud. (And possibly C : Kenny/Okada 5) I'm not really sure how realistic either of those really are.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 20, 2020 1:26:31 GMT -5
Exactly my point. NJPW has people under their wins and at this point is big enough to forge their own relationships. People expect this relationship to give them access to Naito, Tanahashi etc like it was in TNA but that isn't the case You might get the occasional sighting of Ishii or Suzuki since they travel but NJPW would want them to help feed their Young Lions system and highly doubt AEW signing on to be a feeder for young wrestlers until they go back to Japan and be big time It seems to me the big things people would want out of such a relationship are : A) Umino reunited with Mox, and B) Either a Kenny/Ibushi Romance Angle or a Kenny/Ibushi feud. (And possibly C : Kenny/Okada 5) I'm not really sure how realistic either of those really are. The only thing really needed from Kenny that would have happened was put Ibushi over That would have been a WK matchup. Tho he technically put Ibushi over at G1 2018 (before Ibushi signed his deal) and they had that title match KoPW which they stupidly put Cody in So yeah as I keep saying, NJPW really has no "need" for AEW talent outside of U.S. touring because they worked with 60% of their roster already. Omega/Okada 5 would be nice but I don't think that is a must have match people are clamoring for
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 1:33:41 GMT -5
2018 was probably the worst year of New Japan of the 2010's, and unfortunately Ibushi's positioning kind of reflected that. Just my 2¢
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,852
|
Post by Dub H on Oct 20, 2020 2:53:57 GMT -5
It seems to me the big things people would want out of such a relationship are : A) Umino reunited with Mox, and B) Either a Kenny/Ibushi Romance Angle or a Kenny/Ibushi feud. (And possibly C : Kenny/Okada 5) I'm not really sure how realistic either of those really are. The only thing really needed from Kenny that would have happened was put Ibushi over That would have been a WK matchup. Tho he technically put Ibushi over at G1 2018 (before Ibushi signed his deal) and they had that title match KoPW which they stupidly put Cody in So yeah as I keep saying, NJPW really has no "need" for AEW talent outside of U.S. touring because they worked with 60% of their roster already. Omega/Okada 5 would be nice but I don't think that is a must have match people are clamoring for technically neither need the other but both have something the gain.I think if Omega Okada ever happen it wouldnt be on NJPW and I dont see Okada wrestling in AEW. Technicaly AEW already has a " working " relatiob,it got to use its biggest atar while they were still active anyway so they might just no need to strike a deal and still be fine but I think both Japanese ans US fans and JP NJPW would gain somethinf
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 20, 2020 3:04:39 GMT -5
The only thing really needed from Kenny that would have happened was put Ibushi over That would have been a WK matchup. Tho he technically put Ibushi over at G1 2018 (before Ibushi signed his deal) and they had that title match KoPW which they stupidly put Cody in So yeah as I keep saying, NJPW really has no "need" for AEW talent outside of U.S. touring because they worked with 60% of their roster already. Omega/Okada 5 would be nice but I don't think that is a must have match people are clamoring for technically neither need the other but both have something the gain.I think if Omega Okada ever happen it wouldnt be on NJPW and I dont see Okada wrestling in AEW. Technicaly AEW already has a " working " relatiob,it got to use its biggest atar while they were still active anyway so they might just no need to strike a deal and still be fine but I think both Japanese ans US fans and JP NJPW would gain somethinf AEW doesn't need NJPW but they would gain a lot if they can get a deal and just be able to name drop possibilities and have crossover appeal for the big shows like ROH/NJPW at MSG I sound like a broken record but a working deal is good in theory but execution and details wise it is shakey. Old vets like Jericho would obviously be interested and Tanahashi would def welcome it but Gedo likes the structure he has and as long as AEW allows guys like Jericho/Mox to work NJPW as a "side gig" it lessens the possibilities of it happening
|
|
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 20, 2020 3:10:34 GMT -5
2018 was probably the worst year of New Japan of the 2010's, and unfortunately Ibushi's positioning kind of reflected that. Just my 2¢ How so? Are you saying Ibushi rising up the card made for a bad year? Because he really did not matter in terms of standing on his own until the G1 that year and even then he won the NEVER title and dropped it to Will at WK
|
|
Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,073
|
Post by Mozenrath on Oct 20, 2020 3:13:05 GMT -5
I disagree on 2018 being the worst of the 2010s, even with the botched Bullet Club split and other hiccups. I'd have to give it a lot of thought on what I'd put on the bottom, but it definitely wouldn't be 2018, even if 2019 was definitely better.
|
|