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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 12:21:19 GMT -5
The Starrcade shit is a a rare wrestling event that makes me physically angry to think about. They masterfully pulled off the unthinkable - a year and a half long storyline where the protagonist didn't wrestle or utter a single word - only to break their ankles at the finish line.
Hogan didn't even have to get squashed, it could've been a thirty minute war. The only thing that *had* to happen was Sting winning without f***ery. Ugh.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 25, 2020 12:58:36 GMT -5
Hogan getting that creative control clause in his WCW contract enabled the worst in him. What happened at Starrcade '97 was the shining example of why that was such a bad idea. I say it all the time,giving Hogan the contract was the worst decision WCW could have made. Sure Hogan was the biggest star so it gave some great short term success. But it also guaranteed they never made money from it abd that it killed any future stare of their own
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 25, 2020 13:35:38 GMT -5
If Hogan lost clean to Sting it would have been the end of his usefulness. Honestly Hogan had served his purpose. The year plus nWo domination should have ended with Sting decisively beating Hogan. What we got was the worst thing for the fans, the company and wrestling in general, but because it served to keep Hogan relevant it's what we got. It's the single most damaging match in the history of the sport. There is no single match that sunk a product as fast as the Sting/Hogan match at Starrcade. Except for the part but that by almost every tangible measure WCW was more successful in 1998 then 1997 it sunk the company. Look I think it turned out to be a crap match with a dumb finish too but I recognize it wasn't the end of WCW people want it out to be., Things don’t crash and burn overnight. This match was a microcosm of the issues WCW had with booking, giving the fans what they want and allowing certain veterans to put their wants and needs over the success of the company. The companies PPV buyrates were half of Starrcade almost immediately and nearly 1/3 of that by mid year. They got taken over by WWF within four months of Starrcade They built up a mega event, arguably one of a handful of biggest matches in wrestling history. Made Sting look like he could wipe out nWo himself only to get his ass kicked by Hogan and pinned clean in the middle of the ring before Hogan got robbed and the result got overturned.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
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Post by cjh on Oct 25, 2020 13:51:26 GMT -5
In fairness, a lot of the original options in the poll are BS. Hogan probably didn't do any "politicking" in the WWF at all until at least 1990 and maybe not really until '92-'93, because he didn't have to. Dave Meltzer has basically said the same thing. From 1984-1992, any match Hogan didn't lose was a match Vince McMahon didn't want Hogan losing. 1993 with Bret Hart was apparently the first actual conflict.
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 25, 2020 13:53:48 GMT -5
Nothing bad he's done in wrestling compares to the sickening things he's done in his personal life: the decades of lies, buying his underage son alcohol that led to the car accident that paralyzed a man/the carny talk to get one over on the jail/the talk of a "real ality" deal with his son who caused the accident and of course the racist chatter. I personal don't believe he is a racist but I do believe he is a very sick person who talks just to hear himself talk and is capable of saying very sick things just to hear himself talk. His image and career accomplishments should be wiped from the record books as much as possible. Outside of one other wrestler, I can't think of anyone who has done more to destroy his image that Hogan has.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Oct 25, 2020 14:03:34 GMT -5
Except for the part but that by almost every tangible measure WCW was more successful in 1998 then 1997 it sunk the company. Look I think it turned out to be a crap match with a dumb finish too but I recognize it wasn't the end of WCW people want it out to be., Things don’t crash and burn overnight. This match was a microcosm of the issues WCW had with booking, giving the fans what they want and allowing certain veterans to put their wants and needs over the success of the company. The companies PPV buyrates were half of Starrcade almost immediately and nearly 1/3 of that by mid year. They got taken over by WWF within four months of Starrcade They built up a mega event, arguably one of a handful of biggest matches in wrestling history. Made Sting look like he could wipe out nWo himself only to get his ass kicked by Hogan and pinned clean in the middle of the ring before Hogan got robbed and the result got overturned. They were overtaken because WWF got red hot and WCW stayed regular hot. I'm making up these figures but if one promotions increases revenues by 125% from the prior year and another 75% from the prior year it means that the first promotion was more successful, not the latter failed. That's what happened imo in 1998.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 25, 2020 14:54:32 GMT -5
Very recently from the Undertaker himself. Yeah, none of that really rebuts anything. Undertaker seems to believe he was in line to keep the title after Tuesday in Texas, which was absolutely positively never going to happen. I would buy it, but the fact Hogan showed up early at the arena when he normally didn't, and did "business" in the shower room to get Taker to protect his neck and pronounced his neck injury everytime he saw Taker and then immediately claimed himself hurt after the finish, and sprawling out in McMahon's office instead of the arena first aid room just reeks of the long con rather than injury. If he had been legitimately hurt, why didn't he take time off? According to the link below, he was on the regular matinee house show circuit three days after Survivor Series and worked a full schedule in larger markets throughout December, including a tour of Japan. www.thehistoryofwwe.com/91.htm
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Post by jason1980s on Oct 25, 2020 16:58:06 GMT -5
I enjoyed the two recent interviews I saw with Undertaker and they were kind of "edge of your set" type discussions. I totally believe him and believe Hogan would do something to intentionally screw with his push. Even though it would be a few years before Undertaker would be the legend we would know him as, you could tell he had so much potential. Survivor Series 1991 saw a large group of guys who were past their prime and a large group of newer guys (mostly just to WWF) who would be going nowhere but Undertaker was a guy that just had "IT." Hogan and he were in two different leagues and would be for a while, through no fault of Undertaker but I can see Hogan fearing his talents. I'm not a fan of the Wrestler's Court and do wish to hear his side of this but with Undertaker we have a guy who has never lied to us fans (though he's never done many interviews) and then we have a guy who does nothing but lie.
I also think the ending of Wrestlemania 6 wasn't planned. And as more of a WWF fan than WCW I would say his worst offense in a company was Wrestlemania IX. A tag team title reign would have been fine followed by a house show loss, as Money Inc did with Steiner's but he had to go for the HW title. I get anti Bret fans don't think he did well as champ but fans were definitely tired of Hogan at the time. As other's have noted he was gone for almost a year so why not either stay gone or appreciate he had been gone so long that a new person was now the HW champ.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 26, 2020 2:27:21 GMT -5
In fairness, a lot of the original options in the poll are BS. Hogan probably didn't do any "politicking" in the WWF at all until at least 1990 and maybe not really until '92-'93, because he didn't have to. Dave Meltzer has basically said the same thing. From 1984-1992, any match Hogan didn't lose was a match Vince McMahon didn't want Hogan losing. 1993 with Bret Hart was apparently the first actual conflict. He wouldn't have needed to politic as the face of the national expansion in the 80s. 1993 onwards, he was a relic from a bygone age and probably very paranoid about his place in the wrestling vernacular so upped the ante on power plays etc.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 26, 2020 2:47:28 GMT -5
It is safe to assune Hogan did a lot more that we will never know
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 26, 2020 3:21:17 GMT -5
Yeah, none of that really rebuts anything. Undertaker seems to believe he was in line to keep the title after Tuesday in Texas, which was absolutely positively never going to happen. I would buy it, but the fact Hogan showed up early at the arena when he normally didn't, and did "business" in the shower room to get Taker to protect his neck and pronounced his neck injury everytime he saw Taker and then immediately claimed himself hurt after the finish, and sprawling out in McMahon's office instead of the arena first aid room just reeks of the long con rather than injury. If he had been legitimately hurt, why didn't he take time off? According to the link below, he was on the regular matinee house show circuit three days after Survivor Series and worked a full schedule in larger markets throughout December, including a tour of Japan. www.thehistoryofwwe.com/91.htmThis was a time period when guys worked, even when hurt badly. Macho with the staph infection, Ric Flair after the plane crash, or Orndorff's arm issues come to mind. Wasn't sensible, but that mindset that you had to work, even if you were banged up, was fairly common to see guys from that era continue to wrestle.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 26, 2020 7:46:52 GMT -5
I would buy it, but the fact Hogan showed up early at the arena when he normally didn't, and did "business" in the shower room to get Taker to protect his neck and pronounced his neck injury everytime he saw Taker and then immediately claimed himself hurt after the finish, and sprawling out in McMahon's office instead of the arena first aid room just reeks of the long con rather than injury. If he had been legitimately hurt, why didn't he take time off? According to the link below, he was on the regular matinee house show circuit three days after Survivor Series and worked a full schedule in larger markets throughout December, including a tour of Japan. www.thehistoryofwwe.com/91.htmThis was a time period when guys worked, even when hurt badly. Macho with the staph infection, Ric Flair after the plane crash, or Orndorff's arm issues come to mind. Wasn't sensible, but that mindset that you had to work, even if you were banged up, was fairly common to see guys from that era continue to wrestle. I get that, but of anyone on the roster that had a safe spot, it would be Hogan. He was always able to take time out for a movie. And he finished the match in Japan with an enziguiri. I would think that's a much more unsafe move to do with a bad neck than his normal style. I don't know, he may have been injured, but the actions around the injury don't add up.
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 26, 2020 8:21:21 GMT -5
This was a time period when guys worked, even when hurt badly. Macho with the staph infection, Ric Flair after the plane crash, or Orndorff's arm issues come to mind. Wasn't sensible, but that mindset that you had to work, even if you were banged up, was fairly common to see guys from that era continue to wrestle. I get that, but of anyone on the roster that had a safe spot, it would be Hogan. He was always able to take time out for a movie. And he finished the match in Japan with an enziguiri. I would think that's a much more unsafe move to do with a bad neck than his normal style. I don't know, he may have been injured, but the actions around the injury don't add up. Possible, although I think among some there was this idea that you just walked it off if you could. Not even worrying about their place, just not letting it get to you and showing weakness.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 26, 2020 8:28:59 GMT -5
Probably the World War 3 incident with Savage. Red and yellow Hulk already had a rocky relationship with the WCW fans, seeing him shove himself into Savage’s spotlight after he finally won the WCW title was probably a final straw for much of the crowd. It was hard to argue with Heenan telling Hogan to quit his bellyaching, even from a face-leaning perspective.
WCW went six feet under for a variety of other reasons, but the Starrcade 97 thing and Fingerpoke were the tipping points for people getting bored with heel Hogan at least.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Oct 27, 2020 3:32:10 GMT -5
Probably the World War 3 incident with Savage. Red and yellow Hulk already had a rocky relationship with the WCW fans, seeing him shove himself into Savage’s spotlight after he finally won the WCW title was probably a final straw for much of the crowd. It was hard to argue with Heenan telling Hogan to quit his bellyaching, even from a face-leaning perspective. WCW went six feet under for a variety of other reasons, but the Starrcade 97 thing and Fingerpoke were the tipping points for people getting bored with heel Hogan at least.Yea, agreed For the people arguing well, business didn't go down the next night due to a result. Duh. Business don't work that way. It is a gradual decline and for WCW it hit like a ton of bricks
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Post by CubsFan71 on Oct 27, 2020 21:07:45 GMT -5
Why are there even any other options besides Sting at Starrcade? They were building that angle for a solid year only for Hogan screw Sting over in what should have been the most easily booked payoff in wrestling history. All because of Hogan’s out of control ego.
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Post by sfvega on Oct 27, 2020 22:16:08 GMT -5
Great topic! Tough to say, but refusing to put Sting over hurt WCW in untold ways. It was a really simple story that WCW fans were craving. Then it was completely botched. It wasn’t completely Hogan’s fault since Sting looked like ass in the ring in that match too. Honestly, even Sting just squashing Hogan in a short match would have made more sense than what we got. Of course that was never going to happen. It was absolutely Hogan's fault though. Would the crowd have gone nuts for an out of shape Sting gassing in his offense-fest on Hogan? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll never know. But what we do know is we got a completely unremarkable schmozz because of Hogan and Hogan alone.
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Post by sfvega on Oct 27, 2020 23:26:19 GMT -5
If Hogan got his way and went over HBK 3-0 in a 3 match series, that would have taken some beating. Some might say that it was unprofessional, but I was so happy that HBK made their match into a shambolic farce at Summerslam. That Summerslam match is one of my favorite SS matches ever in that they both deserved exactly what they got. No one deserved to have an unmitigated asshole pull one over on him more than Shawn after how he acted in the 90's. No one deserved to have his politicking undermined by a complete lack of professionalism more than Hogan after....well, his entire career up to and beyond that point. Two asshats in an asshat-off where, instead of a psychological match between two legends, we got a laughable clusterf*** where neither man gained anything. In terms of wrestling, it was an abomination. In terms of fairness and balance in the universe, it was one of the best things in wrestling.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 28, 2020 15:05:43 GMT -5
In a way he was always politicking, but used it in a positive way to grow the WWF and make bank himself.
- Moving to Connecticut to be Vince's neighbour and riding motorcycles with him in his big field - Taking local TV station managers to lunch and getting them to put on the WWF shows on Prime Time - Managing to schmooz TV and Network executives at corporate events - no selling his first Wrestlemania paycheck to get McMahon to cough up another $50k for him.
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