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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 27, 2020 13:59:09 GMT -5
Saying Rise of Skywalker sucks doesn't mean you don't love Star Wars. You can enjoy Star Wars and still retain actual standards for quality. The Mandalorian is a vastly superior sequel saga than anything vomited out theatrically by Kennedy and her cronies. ...you do know that Kennedy also oversees all the Star Wars projects on Disney+, Mando included, right? He did say theatrically.
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Post by dirtyoldman on Dec 27, 2020 14:15:42 GMT -5
Why wasn't this last trilogy given a plan worked out before hand. I know the original wasn't that planned much but for this one there's no excuse.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2020 14:34:27 GMT -5
My brother is still surprised that I never watched Rise of Skywalker, since as a kid I was such a huge Star Wars fan, but man I had almost no interest in it at all when it was coming out.
It's like it's been said in here: the sequel trilogy started out pretty fun with Force Awakens, but the two years in between that and Last Jedi just made the whole "eh...it really was just a re-do of Episode IV, wasn't it?" point clearer and clearer, and it kind of detracted from my enjoyment of the film a bit. Then I'd say that the first two-thirds of Last Jedi was some of my favorite stuff that Star Wars has done in ages, but the last act of the film just completely falls apart when you can tell there's just nowhere for the story to go, and when you can almost feel the studio telling Johnson "No, don't change TOO much about Star Wars", leaving everything back at square one. When I heard that the Emperor would be back for Episode 9 and that there'd be no explanation for how or why he was there, that made me just say "Y'know what? Don't care. Just don't care anymore."
Like, as people keep saying, if you don't have a three movie-long story or arc in mind, then why are you announcing that you're making a trilogy? If you don't have a plan for three movies, then just make one good one; if it's really good, then figure out a sequel story, ala how the original trilogy did things, or most other major trilogies from the 80s. You realize that Force Awakens was basically the cliche J.J. Abrams' "Mystery Box" setup, where you establish a bunch of questions but have no answers in mind as you create them. Then you see that Johnson tried to undo a lot of that in Last Jedi, and again part of why I liked the first two acts of that movie was precisely that: Rey is nobody from nowhere, Snoke's history isn't important, Kylo doesn't have to be knockoff Darth Vader, and the Jedi weren't exactly perfect as an institution, so maybe it's time to move on and, on a meta commentary level, take the series in new directions.
But while I enjoyed Luke's role in the Last Jedi finale (and his overall arc; seriously, I will never, ever understand people who hate on how Luke was handled in that movie, it was the best thing in the film), the rest of the ending was "there aren't really any consequences to what's happened up to this point, there's nowhere for the story to go in the next movie, and all that stuff about new directions? Nah, we're just sticking with the same tired Rebels/Empire storyline"; that last point had been my greatest disappointment with Force Awakens in the first place, and seeing Last Jedi tease "we're doing something new!" only to end on "...but not really" left me so deflated that I really just couldn't get any excitement going for another one. And, again, as soon as I heard the synopsis for Rise of Skywalker that "I'm not excited" feeling turned straight into "I just don't care anymore."
I'll say this: I'm kind of tired of people trying to say "the prequels were good, actually!" in the wake of the sequel trilogy, because no, the prequels sucked. I get that they're fun to meme now, but their meme-ability stems from how bad they are. What they did have going for them was one main guy in charge of things, and Lucas did at least have a story he wanted to tell across three movies ("How easily democracy can be manipulated into a dictatorship"), even if they were done poorly. Doesn't mean people aren't allowed to enjoy them, or find good stuff in them, but seeing people argue "prequels vs. sequels" just completely misses the point for me: to me, the harsh reality is that the last truly great Star Wars movie was released in 1980. It had a fun sequel in 1983 with some genuinely great moments and sequences, but since then it's mostly been either bad movies, better-made movies without thought-out stories, or some side stories that are pretty much "eh, those were ok" but ultimately not very memorable.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2020 14:51:39 GMT -5
Like, as people keep saying, if you don't have a three movie-long story or arc in mind, then why are you announcing that you're making a trilogy? If you don't have a plan for three movies, then just make one good one; if it's really good, then figure out a sequel story, ala how the original trilogy did things, or most other major trilogies from the 80s. You realize that Force Awakens was basically the cliche J.J. Abrams' "Mystery Box" setup, where you establish a bunch of questions but have no answers in mind as you create them. Then you see that Johnson tried to undo a lot of that in Last Jedi, and again part of why I liked the first two acts of that movie was precisely that: Rey is nobody from nowhere, Snoke's history isn't important, Kylo doesn't have to be knockoff Darth Vader, and the Jedi weren't exactly perfect as an institution, so maybe it's time to move on and, on a meta commentary level, take the series in new directions. It can be summed up pretty well by the interviews with LucasFilm production staff for "Making of..." books. Johnson's ideas and design choices were the result of him analysing character motivations and re-examining everything down to the smallest detail. J.J.'s methodology was (and I'm paraphrasing) "This is kinda like something Kubrick did, it looks cool, let's do that." There definitely was some attempt by LucasFilm and/or Disney to course correct from the third act of Last Jedi onwards, to the point where it makes you ask what was the point in hiring Johnson and Trevorrow in the first place. If you just wanted to just remix the OT just give the whole trilogy to J.J.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 27, 2020 15:49:46 GMT -5
To this day I have not seen Rise of Skywalker, and will proudly go through my whole life never doing so. I’m one of the (apparently rare) people who thought TFA and TLJ both sucked equally, just in different ways.
After TFA, I came back for TLJ because people told me over and over to give this trilogy another chance, to see what the fanficky, cookie cutter mediocrity of TFA was leading to. I got rewarded with even more fundamentally (just from a pure mechanical perspective) bad storytelling, combined with a contempt for the fan base that would make Vince McMahon blush.
I’ve basically stopped being a Star Wars fan ever since. Haven’t even watched The Mandalorian. I can tell when I’m not wanted.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2020 18:41:42 GMT -5
To this day I have not seen Rise of Skywalker, and will proudly go through my whole life never doing so. I’m one of the (apparently rare) people who thought TFA and TLJ both sucked equally, just in different ways. After TFA, I came back for TLJ because people told me over and over to give this trilogy another chance, to see what the fanficky, cookie cutter mediocrity of TFA was leading to. I got rewarded with even more fundamentally (just from a pure mechanical perspective) bad storytelling, combined with a contempt for the fan base that would make Vince McMahon blush. Gotta admit, that last part is the thing I've never understood; never saw any of it as "fanbase bad", but I see people say it a lot. But again, to me the bigger problem is that TLJ didn't change enough about Star Wars; should've committed all the way instead of seeming to wimp out near the end.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 27, 2020 18:47:07 GMT -5
the prequels were a coherent story told poorly. the dialogue especially just flat out not how people speak not to mention poor comedy... the sequels are an incoherent story told for the most part well. The Sequel trilogy is just flat out not a trilogy. It was not written like one, it was 2 different directors and writers with completely different plans for the series... and no overarching story to be told. They needed someone to be the Kevin Feige to state flat out from the beginning... ok ... Rey and Finn are going to be the main characters of this franchise... in the first one Rey finds that she's force sensitive... and we'll hint at Finn being one too... and then have plot points written out that must be hit for 2 and then the ending point at 3. instead it was... ok here's the first movie with a bunch of dangling threads Last Jedi basically severs all of them... and ends honestly pretty conclusively... and then Abrams is brought back and sees that literally none of his plans fit any more ... and he basically bashes them into place. A lot of Rise of the Skywalker came across as a director poking fun at another director (see Luke catching the lightsaber) Apart from Luke and Snoke being dead, I couldn't tell you a thing in TLJ that actually got acknowledged in RotS. It's like the whole film was a "screw you I'm telling MY story"
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2020 19:02:52 GMT -5
combined with a contempt for the fan base that would make Vince McMahon blush. I’ve basically stopped being a Star Wars fan ever since. Haven’t even watched The Mandalorian. I can tell when I’m not wanted. Sorry to single you out, but seeing a lot of this kind of thinking in the last few years is utterly cringeworthy. Y'all really think Disney spent $4 billion on LucasFilm and its IPs to turn around and say to the people who made those IPs so valuable in the first place "Sorry, we don't want your money. PS. Totally not sorry." They're guilty of mishandling their attempt to appeal to the existing fanbase while trying to expand the brand's appeal beyond it. Nothing malicious or personal about it, and given the particularly aggressive responses from certain sections of the fanbase over the handling of legacy characters I can understand their reluctance to reuse them.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 27, 2020 19:18:03 GMT -5
combined with a contempt for the fan base that would make Vince McMahon blush. I’ve basically stopped being a Star Wars fan ever since. Haven’t even watched The Mandalorian. I can tell when I’m not wanted. Sorry to single you out, but seeing a lot of this kind of thinking in the last few years is utterly cringeworthy. Y'all really think Disney spent $4 billion on LucasFilm and its IPs to turn around and say to the people who made those IPs so valuable in the first place "Sorry, we don't want your money. PS. Totally not sorry." They're guilty of mishandling their attempt to appeal to the existing fanbase while trying to expand the brand's appeal beyond it. Nothing malicious or personal about it, and given the particularly aggressive responses from certain sections of the fanbase over the handling of legacy characters I can understand their reluctance to reuse them. their problem with the Last Jedi especially was catering to a market that didn't really care for their product to begin with
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2020 19:25:02 GMT -5
their problem with the Last Jedi especially was catering to a market that didn't really care for their product to begin with Yeah. I stand by my assessment TLJ is a damn good movie for the most part, but it's in a no-win situation as it wasn't likely to appeal to people not already invested in Star Wars, and wasn't likely to appease the fans clamouring for Luke Skywalker, ass-kicking Jedi Master and hero of the New Republic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2020 19:30:46 GMT -5
Honestly I think my biggest problem with Last Jedi is Poe. I kind of have no idea why we're supposed to like this guy or why he's even a main character; he's kind of just a whiny piss-ant who never really learns anything nor accomplishes anything but the movie acts like he did.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 27, 2020 19:41:39 GMT -5
Honestly I think my biggest problem with Last Jedi is Poe. I kind of have no idea why we're supposed to like this guy or why he's even a main character; he's kind of just a whiny piss-ant who never really learns anything nor accomplishes anything but the movie acts like he did. I liked TLJ for the most part but I do think there are a lot of problems with it. as I said Rose and Finn's entire subplot is ultimately meaningless and probably could have been cut from the movie and nothing really would have changed. (I did enjoy the idea of the million to one shot failing but... they could have had more consequences to it failing than it ultimately did.) Poe acts like a shit for most of it demanding to know things when... he's not like in charge of anything he's a pilot... one that was originally supposed to die but Abrams liked him too much... The no one is really the good guy in the war is... like a good message in general... but it doesn't really fit in Star Wars when being evil literally corrupts you physically and the bad guys are well who they are pretty blatantly based off of. It basically leaves itself mostly self contained and doesn't leave a hell of a lot of room to expand on directly... which works... if it wasn't the mid point of the trilogy...
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 27, 2020 19:47:33 GMT -5
After the heat-death of the universe, there will still be someone, somewhere, who won't be happy about a creative decision in a Star Wars movie, TV, book, or comic. For some fans, Star Wars has been forever ruined since 1976.
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Post by Hurbster on Dec 27, 2020 19:48:32 GMT -5
I got Gamepass Ultimate so I get a free month of Disney+.
In retrospect, I probably should not have watched Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker after finishing up with the Mandalorian.
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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 27, 2020 19:50:58 GMT -5
Honestly I think the attribution of ill will of Last Jedi towards the fanbase or Rise of Skywalker towards TLJ itself obfuscates the more likely possibility that both movies were just collectively mishandled and that both should have been in production for at least three years than the two year projects they ended up becoming. The haphazard nature of Episode 9's writing is obvious, but even episode 8 reeks of a script at times in need of at least one more draft. Basically I think the more likely explanation for both is just good old fashioned Hollywood incompetence more than any outright agenda.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 27, 2020 19:52:55 GMT -5
as I said Rose and Finn's entire subplot is ultimately meaningless and probably could have been cut from the movie and nothing really would have changed. (I did enjoy the idea of the million to one shot failing but... they could have had more consequences to it failing than it ultimately did.) Well, it had pretty major consequences. Had they not got caught the First Order wouldn't have known about the plan to use the escape boats to hide on Crait. So the million-to-one shot failed and got all but a handful of the Resistance killed. It basically leaves itself mostly self contained and doesn't leave a hell of a lot of room to expand on directly... which works... if it wasn't the mid point of the trilogy... I think the opposite. You really couldn't make this movie if it wasn't the middle part of a trilogy.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 27, 2020 20:00:26 GMT -5
as I said Rose and Finn's entire subplot is ultimately meaningless and probably could have been cut from the movie and nothing really would have changed. (I did enjoy the idea of the million to one shot failing but... they could have had more consequences to it failing than it ultimately did.) Well, it had pretty major consequences. Had they not got caught the First Order wouldn't have known about the plan to use the escape boats to hide on Crait. So the million-to-one shot failed and got all but a handful of the Resistance killed. . I blame my shitty memory on that it's been a while since I've watched it.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Dec 27, 2020 20:00:33 GMT -5
Honestly I think my biggest problem with Last Jedi is Poe. I kind of have no idea why we're supposed to like this guy or why he's even a main character; he's kind of just a whiny piss-ant who never really learns anything nor accomplishes anything but the movie acts like he did. I liked TLJ for the most part but I do think there are a lot of problems with it. as I said Rose and Finn's entire subplot is ultimately meaningless and probably could have been cut from the movie and nothing really would have changed. (I did enjoy the idea of the million to one shot failing but... they could have had more consequences to it failing than it ultimately did.) Poe acts like a shit for most of it demanding to know things when... he's not like in charge of anything he's a pilot... one that was originally supposed to die but Abrams liked him too much... The no one is really the good guy in the war is... like a good message in general... but it doesn't really fit in Star Wars when being evil literally corrupts you physically and the bad guys are well who they are pretty blatantly based off of. It basically leaves itself mostly self contained and doesn't leave a hell of a lot of room to expand on directly... which works... if it wasn't the mid point of the trilogy... I have no idea where the ideas expressed in TLJ were headed, but I could see a really interesting deconstruction of the endless conflict between good / bad, rebels / Imperials, and Jedi / Sith. If they had gone that route, suddenly TFA being a rehash of ANH makes sense. It's just another iteration of the endless cycle that is inevitable if the status quo continues. I was fascinated by the idea that the Jedi "must end". Is that a way of disrupting the status quo, the binary, black and white view that the Star Wars galaxy had slipped into? Is Luke's disappearance because he saw that all he was doing was perpetuating this manufactured status quo of conflict? Is it up to the new generation of Kylo Ren and Rey to finally break the cycle? With each cycle comes greater and greater death and destruction. But alas, we'll never know. The decision makers panicked and gave the trilogy back to the unoriginal hack that is JJ Abrams.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2020 20:08:19 GMT -5
I have no idea where the ideas expressed in TLJ were headed, but I could see a really interesting deconstruction of the endless conflict between good / bad, rebels / Imperials, and Jedi / Sith. If they had gone that route, suddenly TFA being a rehash of ANH makes sense. It's just another iteration of the endless cycle that is inevitable if the status quo continues.. The only way to stop it is to convince the audience the struggle needs to end by intentionally failing Psyche Taxi.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 27, 2020 20:08:35 GMT -5
I can’t see why anyone would think the Jedi ending was anything but a stupid bad terrible idea. Jedi kick ass.
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