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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 19, 2021 0:50:00 GMT -5
I do agree that they usually just give Asuka the title and don't... like do anything with her that way... but
I always mention with this... Asuka was never the steamroller people act like she was...
even in NXT save for the actual no name jobbers she would have back and forth matches with everyone on the roster.
Her entire win streak was just that she won... regardless of who she was up against she would weather the storm and win.
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mistery
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Post by mistery on Jan 19, 2021 0:56:19 GMT -5
Maybe the problem is Triple H shouldn’t book god level woman’s champions in NXT. He did it with Asuka, then Shayna, and now IO. They hit the main roster and have no where else to go but crashing down. There’s hardly any new mid carders any more there’s no one new fighting over US and IC titles. Now it’s just (blank) from NXT. Then just like the women, guys like Keith Lee have no where to go but the main event, that’s right after debuting and they have no where else to go but down. 1/3 of the audience watches NXT, and so that’s 1/3 that didn’t get to see this character grow and become who they are. Then their thrown on the main shows like we know who they are why we should care about them. At the same time changing what got them over in the first place. It’s why a good chunk of them fail. It’s even worse for the women you have to get over right away or your put on main event. They really need to figure out a better way to connect NXT to main roster. Is it on par? Is it developmental? Is it even cannon? It feels like it changes every week. No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 1:10:38 GMT -5
Maybe the problem is Triple H shouldn’t book god level woman’s champions in NXT. He did it with Asuka, then Shayna, and now IO. They hit the main roster and have no where else to go but crashing down. There’s hardly any new mid carders any more there’s no one new fighting over US and IC titles. Now it’s just (blank) from NXT. Then just like the women, guys like Keith Lee have no where to go but the main event, that’s right after debuting and they have no where else to go but down. 1/3 of the audience watches NXT, and so that’s 1/3 that didn’t get to see this character grow and become who they are. Then their thrown on the main shows like we know who they are why we should care about them. At the same time changing what got them over in the first place. It’s why a good chunk of them fail. It’s even worse for the women you have to get over right away or your put on main event. They really need to figure out a better way to connect NXT to main roster. Is it on par? Is it developmental? Is it even cannon? It feels like it changes every week. No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa. Ok explain to me how you think Asuka should have been booked. Never lose? This the same thing happening to Shayna and will happen to IO. The division is 8 women deep. NXT cant have this amazing women’s division to the detriment to the both main shows. Someone said the other day if EVERY possible women was in the rumble from Smackdown and Raw they would still have six empty slots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 1:15:32 GMT -5
I’ve been critical of the main rosters woman’s divisions for a while now. With is pecking order booking.
Becky / Flair Sasha / Baley Asuka Nia / Shayna / Belair Carmella / Alexa / Evans / blonde of the month Nattie for some reason Everyone else
How can you make two competitive divisions out of that. While also having tag belts.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 19, 2021 1:42:44 GMT -5
Maybe the problem is Triple H shouldn’t book god level woman’s champions in NXT. He did it with Asuka, then Shayna, and now IO. They hit the main roster and have no where else to go but crashing down. There’s hardly any new mid carders any more there’s no one new fighting over US and IC titles. Now it’s just (blank) from NXT. Then just like the women, guys like Keith Lee have no where to go but the main event, that’s right after debuting and they have no where else to go but down. 1/3 of the audience watches NXT, and so that’s 1/3 that didn’t get to see this character grow and become who they are. Then their thrown on the main shows like we know who they are why we should care about them. At the same time changing what got them over in the first place. It’s why a good chunk of them fail. It’s even worse for the women you have to get over right away or your put on main event. They really need to figure out a better way to connect NXT to main roster. Is it on par? Is it developmental? Is it even cannon? It feels like it changes every week. No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa. I agree with your main point that Vince's 50/50 booking helps no one and Vince's booking is absolutely the problem Alexa "limited" or not is literally one of their most decorated champions... selling for her (which again ASUKA HAS SOLD FOR LITERALLY EVERYONE IN ALL OF HER MATCHES dating back to NXT) isn't that big of a deal... especially now that she has undefined magic powers.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 19, 2021 4:13:56 GMT -5
Maybe the problem is Triple H shouldn’t book god level woman’s champions in NXT. He did it with Asuka, then Shayna, and now IO. They hit the main roster and have no where else to go but crashing down. There’s hardly any new mid carders any more there’s no one new fighting over US and IC titles. Now it’s just (blank) from NXT. Then just like the women, guys like Keith Lee have no where to go but the main event, that’s right after debuting and they have no where else to go but down. 1/3 of the audience watches NXT, and so that’s 1/3 that didn’t get to see this character grow and become who they are. Then their thrown on the main shows like we know who they are why we should care about them. At the same time changing what got them over in the first place. It’s why a good chunk of them fail. It’s even worse for the women you have to get over right away or your put on main event. They really need to figure out a better way to connect NXT to main roster. Is it on par? Is it developmental? Is it even cannon? It feels like it changes every week. No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa. But, it's a good storyline. I enjoyed the acting of the playground segment, and the undefined magic of the new Alexa Fiend character. I guess it comes down to what you want from wrestling. I actually give 0 shits about the match quality as long as the storyline is good behind it. I am entertained by seeing that Alexa Fiend storyline play out, and Asuka still looked tough for obviously being afraid of it, but still trying and still getting in the ring anyway.
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Post by dex on Jan 19, 2021 5:56:57 GMT -5
No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa. But, it's a good storyline. I enjoyed the acting of the playground segment, and the undefined magic of the new Alexa Fiend character. I guess it comes down to what you want from wrestling. I actually give 0 shits about the match quality as long as the storyline is good behind it. I am entertained by seeing that Alexa Fiend storyline play out, and Asuka still looked tough for obviously being afraid of it, but still trying and still getting in the ring anyway. I'm sorry I don't mean to be disrespectful but I just don't get this. You take the match quality out of wrestling, and you're left with community/regional theater tier acting that makes actors on CW shows look like Oscar contenders, bad soap opera level writing, and shoddy cinematography and cheap special effects We're in the golden age of television. I just don't see how you can watch the WWE for the storylines and the acting when there are literally thousands of options out there that are vastly superior in that regard. Imo the only thing WWE and wrestling has in general over other shows is the matches.
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Post by Legion on Jan 19, 2021 6:12:45 GMT -5
But, it's a good storyline. I enjoyed the acting of the playground segment, and the undefined magic of the new Alexa Fiend character. I guess it comes down to what you want from wrestling. I actually give 0 shits about the match quality as long as the storyline is good behind it. I am entertained by seeing that Alexa Fiend storyline play out, and Asuka still looked tough for obviously being afraid of it, but still trying and still getting in the ring anyway. I'm sorry I don't mean to be disrespectful but I just don't get this. You take the match quality out of wrestling, and you're left with community/regional theater tier acting that makes actors on CW shows look like Oscar contenders, bad soap opera level writing, and shoddy cinematography and cheap special effects We're in the golden age of television. I just don't see how you can watch the WWE for the storylines and the acting when there are literally thousands of options out there that are vastly superior in that regard. Imo the only thing WWE and wrestling has in general over other shows is the matches. Let me clarify myself, it isnt that I believe the matches should go away or not be there, it's just that I dont care about them in a practical sense - the win/loss records, who goes over, who has what title - it's all meaningless to me as long as the story that surrounds those things is entertaining. If the wrestling is also smooth and exciting, great, but if it's clunky or poor, as long as im entertained by the story, I dont mind/care about that quality level. For an example, when AEW started, everyone was saying how great it was and I watched a few shows and though the wrestling was good, they were right, but there was little to no real storylines and so I felt unconnected to anyone and didnt care to watch. Now, they have much better storylines going on and I find myself much more invested in the characters and what happens on the shows. That to me makes a better wrestling show - the story around the in ring action. I dont care so much for the in ring without the story - but I can forgive the in ring if the story is good (and likely can appreciate a really good match if it can tell a story itself, I just like character to go around that more). People are sore about Asuka's booking as champion, I can understand that from a point of view of wanting her to be strong and dominant and feel like a threat as champ - but I also don't care that much because I find most everything Asuka does to be entertaining, she's great to watch either as a more dominant force, or as the foil to others around her as she currently is being used.
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Post by 4real on Jan 19, 2021 8:03:40 GMT -5
I’m just tired of the same old WWE tropes “OMG Alexa Bliss just pinned the Champion!”
By continuously booking people to pin people in non title matches you are A. Devaluing the Champion B. 95% guaranteeing the Champion will win the eventual title match you have making everyone look like shit. And it’s so tired and boring it’s not surprising anymore it would have more impact if WWE did it once a year but no it’s every bloody week.
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Post by mistery on Jan 19, 2021 9:06:29 GMT -5
Bryan and Dave discussed this match on WOR last night, and they brought up a good point.
This crowdless era has been incredibly damaging to WWE (at least on the RAW side of things). If WWE tried pulling that stunt they did last night with Asuka/Alexa in front of a live crowd, it would have caused severe backlash. That's ignoring the fact that The Fiend was already starting to cool off even before we lost crowds. Dave and Bryan went on to mention that they don't see Asuka bouncing back from this. And that WWE learned absolutely nothing from the Hell in a Cell debacle from last year.Dave even went as far to say that Asuka is basically the women's version of Seth Rollins (during The Fiend feud) right now.
And honestly? I don't really care for Dave/Bryan, but I can't really disagree with them. The match last night was completely unnecessary, and I can't realistically see Asuka bouncing back from this either. She's pretty much completely done as a credible threat on the main roster. They'll probably have her drop both titles within the next couple of months before fading into obscurity entirely. All in a cheap attempt to get Fiend Alexa over, even though audiences are gonna absolutely hate the gimmick, especially in a women's division as shallow as RAW's is.
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Post by fw91 on Jan 19, 2021 9:16:14 GMT -5
Eh, I really think this was more of build up Fiend Alexa over bury Asuka.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 19, 2021 9:18:20 GMT -5
Bryan and Dave discussed this match on WOR last night, and they brought up a good point. This crowdless era has been incredibly damaging to WWE (at least on the RAW side of things). If WWE tried pulling that stunt they did last night with Asuka/Alexa in front of a live crowd, it would have caused severe backlash. That's ignoring the fact that The Fiend was already starting to cool off even before we lost crowds. Dave and Bryan went on to mention that they don't see Asuka bouncing back from this. And that WWE learned absolutely nothing from the Hell in a Cell debacle from last year.Dave even went as far to say that Asuka is basically the women's version of Seth Rollins (during The Fiend feud) right now. And honestly? I don't really care for Dave/Bryan, but I can't really disagree with them. The match last night was completely unnecessary, and I can't realistically see Asuka bouncing back from this either. She's pretty much completely done as a credible threat on the main roster. They'll probably have her drop both titles within the next couple of months before fading into obscurity entirely. All in a cheap attempt to get Fiend Alexa over, even though audiences are gonna absolutely hate the gimmick, especially in a women's division as shallow as RAW's is. We didn't think Seth would bounce back and he ended up doing some of the best work of his career. I don't disagree that it wasn't great for Asuka, but I don't think we can declare her DOA. If you're thinking of it in terms of "storyline," she was caught off guard by the supernatural stuff Alexa was pulling and got beat. I could even see this continuing with Asuka learning to overcome and beating Alexa clean in the leadup to a match against Charlotte at Mania.
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mistery
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Post by mistery on Jan 19, 2021 9:21:00 GMT -5
Eh, I really think this was more of build up Fiend Alexa over bury Asuka. It was a burial of Asuka. Full stop. No selling all of her high impact moves, especially ones that helped her beat the Golden Role Models over the Summer is outstandingly bad booking. The Fiend (and Lady Fiend) is a cancerous gimmick that needs to be retired, if just for the fact that its the most outstandingly selfish gimmick in wrestling right now. Instead they are putting all of their eggs in the Fiend basket. Which will almost certainly backfire on them, because you can't have someone like Alexa run through the entire RAW Women's division no selling all of their offense. If they are gonna keep her with this gimmick, they need to add a clear weakness that can be exploited (even Undertaker had his weaknesses), and kill off the no-selling part of the act. But as it stands right now, Alexa is being treated like a Mary-Sue character. And no, I have absolutely zero faith that Asuka is going to rebound from this. It's WWE, and at this point I think its way more likely they take the titles off of her and banish her to the shadow realm or send her spiraling down the card. And I don't think Rollins benefitted from this at all considering his only real feud was with Rey Mysterio for 8 months and produced some of the worst TV outside of Fiend related stuff. And I don't think Asuka is gonna be given the same treatment as him either. Especially since she's seen as a B-level player by WWE. It feels more like she only got the titles because she was a reliable hand in the company during the pandemic, nothing more than that. And now that people are returning, she's gonna go back to her old role, or even possibly even lower.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 19, 2021 9:30:52 GMT -5
When you book the same 4 women strong and yo-yo everyone else for the span of a few years, you get this clusterf*** of a situation
It is what it is
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Post by fw91 on Jan 19, 2021 9:34:16 GMT -5
Eh, I really think this was more of build up Fiend Alexa over bury Asuka. It was a burial of Asuka. Full stop. No selling all of her high impact moves, especially ones that helped her beat the Golden Role Models over the Summer is outstandingly bad booking. The Fiend (and Lady Fiend) is a cancerous gimmick that needs to be retired, if just for the fact that its the most outstandingly selfish gimmick in wrestling right now. Instead they are putting all of their eggs in the Fiend basket. Which will almost certainly backfire on them, because you can't have someone like Alexa run through the entire RAW Women's division no selling all of their offense. If they are gonna keep her with this gimmick, they need to add a clear weakness that can be exploited (even Undertaker had his weaknesses), and kill off the no-selling part of the act. But as it stands right now, Alexa is being treated like a Mary-Sue character. And no, I have absolutely zero faith that Asuka is going to rebound from this. It's WWE, and at this point I think its way more likely they take the titles off of her and banish her to the shadow realm or send her spiraling down the card. And I don't think Rollins benefitted from this at all considering his only real feud was with Rey Mysterio for 8 months and produced some of the worst TV outside of Fiend related stuff. And I don't think Asuka is gonna be given the same treatment as him either. Especially since she's seen as a B-level player by WWE. It feels more like she only got the titles because she was a reliable hand in the company during the pandemic, nothing more than that. And now that people are returning, she's gonna go back to her old role, or even possibly even lower. But No selling seems to be an essential characteristic of the character imo.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 19, 2021 9:47:06 GMT -5
Conversely, what would happen if we had wrestlers starting to no-sell the Fiend and Fiendette? And we just have them easily whooping their asses?
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 19, 2021 9:52:06 GMT -5
Conversely, what would happen if we had wrestlers starting to no-sell the Fiend and Fiendette? And we just have them easily whooping their asses? I suspect the original plan for WrestleMania last year before Goldberg got involved was Fiend wrecking Roman for most of their title match before Reigns pulled out the "no-sell Fiend" card.
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Post by mistery on Jan 19, 2021 9:52:48 GMT -5
I honestly don't see the no-selling as an essential part of the character. It's actively detrimental to whoever the character is feuding with. I would argue the ONLY person who came out of a feud with The Fiend looking even BARELY passable was Daniel Bryan. Everyone else has actively come out of it looking worse. Conversely, what would happen if we had wrestlers starting to no-sell the Fiend and Fiendette? And we just have them easily whooping their asses? At this point, they need to start adding in clear cut weaknesses and showing that The Fiend and Alexa are vulnerable and can take major losses. Otherwise you run the risk of everyone they feud with looking like complete losers who fans shouldn't care about, because they just never lose or look vulnerable.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 19, 2021 9:55:56 GMT -5
I honestly don't see the no-selling as an essential part of the character. It's actively detrimental to whoever the character is feuding with. I would argue the ONLY person who came out of a feud with The Fiend looking even BARELY passable was Daniel Bryan. Everyone else has actively come out of it looking worse. Conversely, what would happen if we had wrestlers starting to no-sell the Fiend and Fiendette? And we just have them easily whooping their asses? At this point, they need to start adding in clear cut weaknesses and showing that The Fiend and Alexa are vulnerable and can take major losses. Otherwise you run the risk of everyone they feud with looking like complete losers who fans shouldn't care about, because they just never lose or look vulnerable. Someone once had the idea that the mask is the source of the Fiend's powers, and that taking it off weakens him significantly. Maybe they can make that canon... though it'd be a bit of a challenge to do a spot where the Fiend mask flies off after Bray gets knocked on his face.
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Post by tenshi on Jan 19, 2021 10:45:46 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage.
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