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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 10:58:03 GMT -5
Asuka will be fine.She lost to a hot busty toddler with superpowers who is possessed by a murderous clown who lives inside her.We’ve all been there.
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Post by mistery on Jan 19, 2021 10:58:57 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. Yeah. That's not a good thing. Asuka shouldn't be booked as an afterthought or used as fodder to put Alexa over. They could have used any other woman on the roster and it would have had the same effect. But instead they sent Asuka out there and completely buried her so deep into the earth, there is virtually no chance of recovery. WWE constantly does this with her, and its defenders are like "WELL JUST WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, SHE WILL EVENTUALLY GET REVENGE" and then it never happens. Either they need to start pushing Asuka like an actual major competitor they care about and not as an afterthought, or they need to either let her go back to NXT, or they just need to let her leave the company (if she desires, of course) and work in other promotions at this point. Because a lot of her fans have absolutely zero faith in the main roster handling her correctly. And at this point, I'm pretty sure things are never going to change because people keep swallowing the talking point of "WELL JUST WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, SHE WILL EVENTUALLY GET REVENGE" even though it never, ever pans out. The Fiend gimmick is utter cancer, and we all know this ends with him returning and going over Orton. Making things that much worse, despite Orton being a heel.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 19, 2021 10:59:32 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. this is the bigger issue with Asuka's booking in general. Her story has rarely been... HER story. She's usually been an also ran for someone else.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 19, 2021 11:22:25 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. I mean, I get the “She’s never the star of her own story when she’s champion” perspective. That’s a reasonable criticism. I just can’t stand the whole “BURIED” thing. Never have. It’s basically implying such heavy permanence that rarely actually sticks, that it doesn’t matter how good someone could be booked after this, they are now permanently weak. Maybe if they booked the rest of the roster as “badly” as they book Asuka, maybe they wouldn’t have needed to use one of the only credible talents they have to get this new monster character over.
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Post by eJm on Jan 19, 2021 11:22:40 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. If Alexa provoked Asuka to a match after she beat someone and kept doing that before this, then yeah, it'd probably be more her story because it involves her. But by all accounts, it just happened to push another storyline so it was like...you could have slotted anyone into this role. You could put Shotzi Blackheart in Asuka's place and it'd have the same bearing to the wider narrative.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 11:22:58 GMT -5
IMO I do not consider lastnight a burial....YET because I wanna give WWE the chance to screw this up like I know they will so I am willing to give them till next week only.
Because this CAN be Asukas story and be her best story...where for the first time in her WWE career she got legit rattled and now she has to change because yea she fought back against Ultra Instinct Alexa but Alexa pretty much just absorbed all her best shots and this is after they had been wrestling 8-9min prior and beat her. So this HAS to result in a change because if it doesn't not only is it bad story telling as we are expecting but then we can say okay yes it was a burial because Asuka got nothing from that.
But WWE has an even bigger problem they have now created for themselves because atleast with Bray and The Fiend we are suppose to buy into the fact they were two different entities/people/clowns it is why when Bray wrestles he never just transforms midmatch to win as The Fiend and this is where they f***ed up with Alexa lastnight because Alexas transformation was still Alexa...absorbed all of Asukas best shots and beat her with little to no problems at all....because if this is gonna be a case of Alexa is only gonna lose gimmick matches now because beating her in a normal match is just nigh impossible now she can just hit ultra instinct at any point, then this division just got f***ed even harder.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 19, 2021 11:27:41 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. I mean, I get the “She’s never the star of her own story when she’s champion” perspective. That’s a reasonable criticism. I just can’t stand the whole “BURIED” thing. Never have. It’s basically implying such heavy permanence that rarely actually sticks, that it doesn’t matter how good someone could be booked after this, they are now permanently weak. Maybe if they booked the rest of the roster as “badly” as they book Asuka, maybe they wouldn’t have needed to use one of the only credible talents they have to get this new monster character over. Bingo. They needed someone with real credibility to sell Fiend Alexa as a monster threat and advance the story there and since there's zero credible people on the face side (other than Charlotte, and THAT was absof***inglutely not going to happen), it had to be Asuka.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jan 19, 2021 11:35:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't use the term "buried" here. But I think it's absolutely fair to say that you should almost never book one of your world champions like this. Your world champion (and we should aim for her title to be treated like a world title) should not be beaten in that fashion in the main event of a TV show, especially when acting afraid of her opponent. It was bad when Shida was initially afraid of Abadon and it was bad here. And it's not even setting up an immediate title match since Alexa is in the Rumble. And it didn't really have anything to do with Asuka. She was just a name to show off how much of a threat Alexa is. You can do this with Nia or Shayna. You can put Alexa in a handicap match against Dana/Mandy. But Asuka as your world champion and also as a coholder of a tag title that spans every WWE brand should not be booked like that. I would be against it if it were Drew, Sasha, Roman. Hell, if Miz became the champion, he shouldn't be losing like that either. They do so many non-finishes and DQs all over the place, I have no idea why they didn't break it out here.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 19, 2021 12:19:32 GMT -5
I wonder how the modern fan would have assessed the booking of the Undertaker character in the early 90s. Were the dirt sheets then talking about him being too selfish, etc. then too? Feels like the closest comparison we have to Fiend.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 12:25:23 GMT -5
I wonder how the modern fan would have assessed the booking of the Undertaker character in the early 90s. Were the dirt sheets then talking about him being too selfish, etc. then too? Feels like the closest comparison we have to Fiend. I don't know about the early 90s, but Taker was definitely very unpopular with the "IWC" for a lack of selling and putting people over in the early 2000s.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 19, 2021 12:30:09 GMT -5
I wonder how the modern fan would have assessed the booking of the Undertaker character in the early 90s. Were the dirt sheets then talking about him being too selfish, etc. then too? Feels like the closest comparison we have to Fiend. I mean, the analogues I could think of wouldn’t necessarily be supernatural ones. I’m thinking more like Randy Savage’s world title reign in the late 80s where he spent nearly the whole time tagging with the previous long-running champion Hulk Hogan for the Mega-Powers angle, and everything that entailed.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 19, 2021 12:54:49 GMT -5
I mean, I get the “She’s never the star of her own story when she’s champion” perspective. That’s a reasonable criticism. I just can’t stand the whole “BURIED” thing. Never have. It’s basically implying such heavy permanence that rarely actually sticks, that it doesn’t matter how good someone could be booked after this, they are now permanently weak. Maybe if they booked the rest of the roster as “badly” as they book Asuka, maybe they wouldn’t have needed to use one of the only credible talents they have to get this new monster character over. Bingo. They needed someone with real credibility to sell Fiend Alexa as a monster threat and advance the story there and since there's zero credible people on the face side (other than Charlotte, and THAT was absof***inglutely not going to happen), it had to be Asuka. Exactly
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Post by eJm on Jan 19, 2021 13:02:21 GMT -5
I wonder how the modern fan would have assessed the booking of the Undertaker character in the early 90s. Were the dirt sheets then talking about him being too selfish, etc. then too? Feels like the closest comparison we have to Fiend. I don't know about the early 90s, but Taker was definitely very unpopular with the "IWC" for a lack of selling and putting people over in the early 2000s. To be fair, looking back on the American Badass days, dude barely made anyone look good and his matches mostly consisted of him punching the crap out of people for, like, 10 minutes. Not to say he should be selling more and jobbing to everyone but dude gave a lot more in the late 00s/early 10s in WrestleMania matches alone.
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Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Jan 19, 2021 13:03:25 GMT -5
I still have residual burnout from the last Super Alexa run so I'm mainly not looking forward to revisiting that but she's an evil magic child now.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 19, 2021 13:12:42 GMT -5
IMO I do not consider lastnight a burial....YET because I wanna give WWE the chance to screw this up like I know they will so I am willing to give them till next week only. Because this CAN be Asukas story and be her best story...where for the first time in her WWE career she got legit rattled and now she has to change because yea she fought back against Ultra Instinct Alexa but Alexa pretty much just absorbed all her best shots and this is after they had been wrestling 8-9min prior and beat her. So this HAS to result in a change because if it doesn't not only is it bad story telling as we are expecting but then we can say okay yes it was a burial because Asuka got nothing from that. But WWE has an even bigger problem they have now created for themselves because atleast with Bray and The Fiend we are suppose to buy into the fact they were two different entities/people/clowns it is why when Bray wrestles he never just transforms midmatch to win as The Fiend and this is where they f***ed up with Alexa lastnight because Alexas transformation was still Alexa...absorbed all of Asukas best shots and beat her with little to no problems at all....because if this is gonna be a case of Alexa is only gonna lose gimmick matches now because beating her in a normal match is just nigh impossible now she can just hit ultra instinct at any point, then this division just got f***ed even harder. I joke about a kryptonite of sorts for the Fiend and Fiend Alexa, but they've honestly have got to introduce it soon (other than outright setting them on fire, I guess. And shots to the balls...).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 13:20:01 GMT -5
No lol. That isn't the problem. Vince is 100% the problem. There is a reason why the NXT Women's division is widely seen as the best in the US in pretty much every aspect. And WWE KNOWS that. You don't see Io Shirai jobbing out to their flavor of the month heels because it means when she actually loses the title it will feel like a big deal. Where on RAW, they have someone as limited as Alexa no-selling offense from someone they previously showed as dominant and a huge threat until Charlotte showed up. The Fiend gimmick is complete and utter trash to whoever they are facing because absolutely NO ONE comes out of their feuds looking better after losing to The Fiend or now Fiend Alexa. But, it's a good storyline. I enjoyed the acting of the playground segment, and the undefined magic of the new Alexa Fiend character. I guess it comes down to what you want from wrestling. I actually give 0 shits about the match quality as long as the storyline is good behind it. I am entertained by seeing that Alexa Fiend storyline play out, and Asuka still looked tough for obviously being afraid of it, but still trying and still getting in the ring anyway. This. 100% this. When every match is "good" these days. I would rather see over the top charaters, than guys just are are good in the ring. Sure Ricochet and Styles put on a crazy as match last night, but WWE has never even me a reason to care about him, besides the one time he kicked Lesnar is the balls. Ive been entertained by The Fiend and the Fun House stuff ithe debut.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 13:20:29 GMT -5
IMO I do not consider lastnight a burial....YET because I wanna give WWE the chance to screw this up like I know they will so I am willing to give them till next week only. Because this CAN be Asukas story and be her best story...where for the first time in her WWE career she got legit rattled and now she has to change because yea she fought back against Ultra Instinct Alexa but Alexa pretty much just absorbed all her best shots and this is after they had been wrestling 8-9min prior and beat her. So this HAS to result in a change because if it doesn't not only is it bad story telling as we are expecting but then we can say okay yes it was a burial because Asuka got nothing from that. But WWE has an even bigger problem they have now created for themselves because atleast with Bray and The Fiend we are suppose to buy into the fact they were two different entities/people/clowns it is why when Bray wrestles he never just transforms midmatch to win as The Fiend and this is where they f***ed up with Alexa lastnight because Alexas transformation was still Alexa...absorbed all of Asukas best shots and beat her with little to no problems at all....because if this is gonna be a case of Alexa is only gonna lose gimmick matches now because beating her in a normal match is just nigh impossible now she can just hit ultra instinct at any point, then this division just got f***ed even harder. I joke about a kryptonite of sorts for the Fiend and Fiend Alexa, but they've honestly have got to introduce it soon (other than outright setting them on fire, I guess. And shots to the balls...). They do because pretty much from the get go all monsters in wrestling have a weakness all fans can identify and just really kind of wait to be exploited. Taker had his Urn Like some others have said maybe The Fiends weakness is his mask...just gotta wait for someone to smarten up and try to rip it off of him to see if that is true. Alexa's I guess is The Fiend himself....but also not really because that only gave her a Cell'esc zenkai boost against Asuka.
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Post by BatPunk on Jan 19, 2021 14:26:54 GMT -5
This is the first interaction of champion and challenger and it played out like it normally would. Challenger starts the feud with the upper hand by winning and this will play out over the coming months until there’s a title match at a ppv.
If you take out the people involved, this is a very generic story arc used to get people invested in the challenger whether they are a face or heel.
I see people’s point as Asuka usually plays second fiddle in all her feuds, but this is hardly a burial. It’s a tried and try arc.
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Post by dex on Jan 19, 2021 14:30:09 GMT -5
I'm sorry I don't mean to be disrespectful but I just don't get this. You take the match quality out of wrestling, and you're left with community/regional theater tier acting that makes actors on CW shows look like Oscar contenders, bad soap opera level writing, and shoddy cinematography and cheap special effects We're in the golden age of television. I just don't see how you can watch the WWE for the storylines and the acting when there are literally thousands of options out there that are vastly superior in that regard. Imo the only thing WWE and wrestling has in general over other shows is the matches. Let me clarify myself, it isnt that I believe the matches should go away or not be there, it's just that I dont care about them in a practical sense - the win/loss records, who goes over, who has what title - it's all meaningless to me as long as the story that surrounds those things is entertaining. If the wrestling is also smooth and exciting, great, but if it's clunky or poor, as long as im entertained by the story, I dont mind/care about that quality level. For an example, when AEW started, everyone was saying how great it was and I watched a few shows and though the wrestling was good, they were right, but there was little to no real storylines and so I felt unconnected to anyone and didnt care to watch. Now, they have much better storylines going on and I find myself much more invested in the characters and what happens on the shows. That to me makes a better wrestling show - the story around the in ring action. I dont care so much for the in ring without the story - but I can forgive the in ring if the story is good (and likely can appreciate a really good match if it can tell a story itself, I just like character to go around that more). People are sore about Asuka's booking as champion, I can understand that from a point of view of wanting her to be strong and dominant and feel like a threat as champ - but I also don't care that much because I find most everything Asuka does to be entertaining, she's great to watch either as a more dominant force, or as the foil to others around her as she currently is being used. I guess where we differ is that I just don't find any really involved wrestling storyline entertaining. Like I said if I wanted something with a big story I'd turn to the many other options that are out there with much better writing and acting. I watch wrestling almost entirely for the matches. So I don't find this hokey Fiend stuff entertaining in the slightest. I don't think we'e ever going to agree on this issue but that's ok.
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Post by Legion on Jan 19, 2021 14:35:28 GMT -5
See, here's the problem how I see it. What happened last night wasn't part of Asuka's story. There's not even an Asuka story here. The story here is about Randy Orton fighting demonic people and trying to out-evil them and Shin Alexa bodying Asuka is to show how strong Alexa can be. In some ways, this can be compared to how the Z Fighters job out to the new threat in order to make the threat look like a big deal until Goku shows up. Shin Alexa is the new threat for Randy to overcome and Asuka is collateral damage. this is the bigger issue with Asuka's booking in general. Her story has rarely been... HER story. She's usually been an also ran for someone else. And I suspect the reasons for that are because of Vince's belief that no one will care if you can't talk, and Asuka's English is likely in that Vince realm of 'good, but not good enough for TV, damnit' territory. He can't deny her talent, and clearly she sells masks and he has a whole Japanese NXT thing brewing, so he wont want to job out the Japanese star totally (hence she has the belts), but he wont push her because in his mind, she cant get on a mic and sell herself.
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