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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Feb 10, 2021 19:51:13 GMT -5
I feel weird about this Whedon stuff, because yeah, seems like he's an asshole who creates toxic atmospheres on his sets, and that absolutely deserves criticism.
But he's also always been an example to me of someone that lots of people have just WANTED to "cancel" since long before "cancelling" became a thing. The way people keep bringing up the same things that didn't get him to lose work earlier, and the way people seem to have extra resentment for him. So like, it's not like any of this is unfaaaiiiiir, exactly? It's just.... I dunno, it feels weird.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 10, 2021 19:55:54 GMT -5
I swear I remember hearing that the reason SMG wanted to leave Buffy was because of Whedon; that she couldn't stand him any more. This was ages ago, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to verify it, but it certainly lines up with everything we've learned since. A while back she commented that the Buffy set could be an unpleasant place to work and she was glad when the show ended so Joss couldn't torment her any more. The exact quote is in the Snyder Cut thread but good luck trying to find it. She said it around the same time that James Marsters spoke about Whedon blowing up at him because Spike had gotten super over and the network wanted to expand the role.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 10, 2021 19:56:54 GMT -5
The stuff with Charisma Carpenter has been long known, and is total bullshit, but I'll never tire of it being spoken about. I love Buffy and Angel, but Joss Whedon can kick rocks until the end of time. Yeah, don't take me saying "this was well known" as meaning it's unimportant. It being talked about again at least brings attention to more people about how much of a shit Whedon was to her.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Feb 10, 2021 19:57:38 GMT -5
I'm tempted to say "what else is new ?" since most of this abuse was already known and talked about amongst fans, viewers and press... but i'm mostly annoyed that this will undoubtedly be used as a smoking gun and an endorsement by the Snyder/Fischer crowd, to crap even more on the Josstice League, and be even more unsufferable. outspoken male feminist not practicing what he preaches shocker I think he considers being a feminist treating men and women equally like shit.
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Post by King Boo on Feb 10, 2021 19:58:29 GMT -5
I swear I remember hearing that the reason SMG wanted to leave Buffy was because of Whedon; that she couldn't stand him any more. This was ages ago, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to verify it, but it certainly lines up with everything we've learned since. A while back she commented that the Buffy set could be an unpleasant place to work and she was glad when the show ended so Joss couldn't torment her any more. The exact quote is in the Snyder Cut thread but good luck trying to find it. She said it around the same time that James Marsters spoke about Whedon blowing up at him because Spike had gotten super over and the network wanted to expand the role. Thank you. I won't bother sifting through all those pages to find it, but just having you tell me she said something helps me know I'm not losing my mind at remembering that haha
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 10, 2021 19:58:46 GMT -5
I think a lot of people look at Hitchcock and Kubrick and take the wrong lessons... their movies were good despite them being sociopathic shitheads not because of.
It was their talent that had them make good movies and got performances out of people... not their perchance for traumatizing actresses.
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Post by King Boo on Feb 10, 2021 20:01:57 GMT -5
I feel weird about this Whedon stuff, because yeah, seems like he's an asshole who creates toxic atmospheres on his sets, and that absolutely deserves criticism. But he's also always been an example to me of someone that lots of people have just WANTED to "cancel" since long before "cancelling" became a thing. The way people keep bringing up the same things that didn't get him to lose work earlier, and the way people seem to have extra resentment for him. So like, it's not like any of this is unfaaaiiiiir, exactly? It's just.... I dunno, it feels weird. Not that you know me from a hole in the wall, but I'm totally not a person who jumps on "canceling" someone. As I like to put it, I'm very much a My Wave kinda gal, generally speaking, and I can't stand Joss Whedon. I can admit the guy has created things I hold near and dear, but I've heard too much for too long to not think he's a complete cretin. Just my perspective, of course.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 10, 2021 20:09:59 GMT -5
I feel weird about this Whedon stuff, because yeah, seems like he's an asshole who creates toxic atmospheres on his sets, and that absolutely deserves criticism. But he's also always been an example to me of someone that lots of people have just WANTED to "cancel" since long before "cancelling" became a thing. The way people keep bringing up the same things that didn't get him to lose work earlier, and the way people seem to have extra resentment for him. So like, it's not like any of this is unfaaaiiiiir, exactly? It's just.... I dunno, it feels weird. Lots of people hate feminists, but just about everybody hates a fake who doesn't practice what he preaches, and for all the progressive woke kudos he used to lap up the cracks in the facade of his work were always there. Buffy in particular was hailed as a highly progressive show, and by the standards of '90s TV you can argue it was, but it hasn't aged well at all. In fact, it's pretty damn misogynistic a lot of the time - hello, every romantic relationship Buffy ever had - but because a hot chick got to beat up bad guys it got a free pass from a lot of people.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Feb 10, 2021 20:19:26 GMT -5
I'm confused, why are people dunking on Ray Fisher when Charisma has shown support for him? The way I see it is Fishers complaints have been vague and you can defend Whedon fairly easily. Whedon was an asshole on Justice League? Well he was in a high pressure no win scenario. Whedon cut minority parts down? Snyder had a three hour movie the execs wanted Whedon to cut to 90 minutes. And I'm sure non minority parts were also cut. Whedon made him into a racist caricature with Booyah? It's the characters catchphrase for 90% of the audience that knows him. Carpenters complaints are specific and there is quite frankly no defense for Whedon.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Feb 10, 2021 20:59:23 GMT -5
I'm thankful for Joss creating Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and directing 2 Avengers movies, but dude is a piece of shit. There's a reason when Joss's ex came forward with her stuff, a lot of the Buffy fandom wasn't shocked.
Look at that unmade episode of Firefly as an example as to why people weren't shocked. Dude's had issues for a long time.
Also, he's the reason that Angel got canceled.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 10, 2021 21:00:21 GMT -5
I'm confused, why are people dunking on Ray Fisher when Charisma has shown support for him? The way I see it is Fishers complaints have been vague and you can defend Whedon fairly easily. Whedon was an asshole on Justice League? Well he was in a high pressure no win scenario. Whedon cut minority parts down? Snyder had a three hour movie the execs wanted Whedon to cut to 90 minutes. And I'm sure non minority parts were also cut. Whedon made him into a racist caricature with Booyah? It's the characters catchphrase for 90% of the audience that knows him. Carpenters complaints are specific and there is quite frankly no defense for Whedon. Exactly. Could Whedon have abused Fisher as he claims? Sure. Equally, Fisher could simply be pissed that a guy with a reputation for being a bully took over a movie made by a guy he holds in high regard, openly insulted and dismissed the work that man did, and cut his big break down to the bone. Throwing out vague accusations of abuse and saying "Look at what he did to Charisma Carpenter" for credibility isn't out the question either. From a personal standpoint, I take issue with the "always believe abuse survivors, always" mentality. I have been falsely accused of rape in the past, which caused me immense problems before my accuser admitted she had lied, so people will have forgive me if I judge people on their verified conduct before I declare them guilty.
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Feb 10, 2021 22:08:17 GMT -5
Great that this is out the open. But the pessimist in me says this will have zero impact.
Just at Bryan Singer, still getting big movies. Or Roman Polanski, raped a 13 year old yet Hollywood Hypocrites (many of whom wore MeToo and Times Up badges) still saw fit to work with him.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Feb 10, 2021 22:40:23 GMT -5
It’s still f***ing crazy to me that people attack and go after Fisher on this.
He says his piece and was supported by other actors and crew from the production. Went along with the investigation. Why are we trying to discredit and gaslight the dude? Because you don’t like Zack Snyder movies? Get some perspective.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 10, 2021 22:55:10 GMT -5
Perspective is there and has NOTHING to do with Snyder hate
Fisher ain't say nothing but vague things. No doubt Whedon was an asshole on set but he was saying he was abusive and when pressed he pump fakes. People have been willing to listen and he keeps saying nothing
Sadly, we all already knew this about Whedon and this was already factored into Fisher and his accusations. People were willing to listen to Fisher and he has had nothing to say thus far
If you blame it on Snyder hate, you obviously not paying attention
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Feb 10, 2021 23:18:05 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Agents of SHIELD, but Joss f***ing Whedon can go f*** off forever.
(I know he had no direct input, but it's still a family affair and he's credited as an executive producer)
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Feb 11, 2021 0:07:16 GMT -5
Great that this is out the open. But the pessimist in me says this will have zero impact. Just at Bryan Singer, still getting big movies. Or Roman Polanski, raped a 13 year old yet Hollywood Hypocrites (many of whom wore MeToo and Times Up badges) still saw fit to work with him. That’s the realist in you. Doubt he’ll be in the spotlight but I’d be willing to bet he’ll be working somehow, somewhere still.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Feb 11, 2021 2:01:03 GMT -5
I feel weird about this Whedon stuff, because yeah, seems like he's an asshole who creates toxic atmospheres on his sets, and that absolutely deserves criticism. But he's also always been an example to me of someone that lots of people have just WANTED to "cancel" since long before "cancelling" became a thing. The way people keep bringing up the same things that didn't get him to lose work earlier, and the way people seem to have extra resentment for him. So like, it's not like any of this is unfaaaiiiiir, exactly? It's just.... I dunno, it feels weird. Lots of people hate feminists, but just about everybody hates a fake who doesn't practice what he preaches, and for all the progressive woke kudos he used to lap up the cracks in the facade of his work were always there. Buffy in particular was hailed as a highly progressive show, and by the standards of '90s TV you can argue it was, but it hasn't aged well at all. In fact, it's pretty damn misogynistic a lot of the time - hello, every romantic relationship Buffy ever had - but because a hot chick got to beat up bad guys it got a free pass from a lot of people. This view doesn't make sense, though, because if you're on the side of progressivism, it's better to have an imperfect progressive than a reactionary. If he's got an audience, it's better to have a FAKE progressive than a reactionary, because the influence of the progressive message is gonna be the biggest effect. Effect matters, not character. This naturally isn't to say that any given person's actions or work are immune to criticism, but I'm talking about the extent to which this is focused on him as a person. "Someone got praise but they might not have deserved it!!" is almost never important or worthwhile, especially since you can't stop other people from praising somebody. (Not suggesting anyone here personally has this view that was being described; I'm not, like, arguing against anyone, here.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 2:19:15 GMT -5
Great that this is out the open. But the pessimist in me says this will have zero impact. Just at Bryan Singer, still getting big movies. Or Roman Polanski, raped a 13 year old yet Hollywood Hypocrites (many of whom wore MeToo and Times Up badges) still saw fit to work with him. That’s the realist in you. Doubt he’ll be in the spotlight but I’d be willing to bet he’ll be working somehow, somewhere still. Hell, Victor Salva hadn't really even accomplished anything yet before the shit he did and he still had a pretty successful career afterward.
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Post by Shark on Feb 11, 2021 2:45:05 GMT -5
I'm confused, why are people dunking on Ray Fisher when Charisma has shown support for him? Honestly I think the controversy about the Snyder Cut has poisoned pretty much all the discourse related to Justice League, Fisher included. The fact that some people's biggest lament from this will be that pro-Snyder people will potentially gain ground tells you how toxic it's gotten. I can't speak to the veracity of the guy's claims but what Carpenter's said along with Whedon's ex wife at the very least suggests that dubious behavior from Joss is not out of the question. This is why I avoid the Snyder Cut thread. The second post in this thread was complaining about how the pro-Snyder people will do with this. It's sad that is someone's first thought after seeing this woman poor her heart out and reveal what happened to her. It's not sympathy for her, but annoyance at what fans are going to say.
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Post by Welfare Willis on Feb 11, 2021 2:50:52 GMT -5
Hasn't it already been pretty well known for years that Joss Whedon is kind of a shithead? Yup, but now you don't get to be a shithead and get away with it.* *This unfortunately is still applied unevenly.
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