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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 14, 2021 9:18:24 GMT -5
And if we want to compare time until a POC gets the world title, AEW has most of a decade to go if we're counting Vince Sr's booking of the company, and if not then they have actual decades. I'd say that kinda works in favour of the idea that comparing relative track records on race isn't very helpful or useful at all. But even if we want to talk only the time they have coexisted for comparison (which sheds so much stuff from WWE's record, including Vince literally just dropping an n bomb), the company's issues are legitimately not comparable and I think that trying to use how many black men Vince has pushed to try and show that it's doing 'better' than AEW isn't it. A black man just showed up on TV a week ago with a goddamned spear. We can talk about AEW's issues. I think trying to compare them to WWE isn't only a needless fandom slapfight, but actively laughable. I think my post was fairly benign and somehow you got that there was some type of fandom slap fight and actively laughable opinion out of it. You do you. I'm not saying your post gave a fandom slap fight vibe, I'm saying the comparison overall does. I think AEW's diversity issue is one best discussed within the confines of AEW rather than in contrast to a company with worse failings, in large part because of how much the extent of WWE's racial issues can overwhelm the still valid issues that should be talked about with AEW.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 14, 2021 9:19:55 GMT -5
If you could make someone a major star through strength of push alone, Randy Orton would be bigger than the Rock, Roman Reigns would have received no pushback and Jinder Mahal would be a force to be reckoned with. You cannot force the audience to care about a guy just because they're pushed, ask Shawn Spears and Scorpio Sky. I like both but their pushes didn't generate any buzz the way Darby's did because he has charisma, he has the it factor and they don't. AEW are building up their next set of future stars, as someone who watches dark, I am invested in Lee Johnson, Top Flight, The Acclaimed and so on, I've been with them from day one and I will mark out hard when they eventually win titles. The last thing I want is to see them burn through five years of storytelling in six months because the WWE have shown, it's easy to sour the audience on a guy by hotshotting them and hard as hell to get them back onside after that. Speaking of the Acclaimed I think Max Caster is gonna be a star in a year or 2. I think the whole reason they paired him with Bowens is they are high on Bowens but he just isn't there on the mic right now. Also I think its clear A EW has big plans for Anthony Ogogo too
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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 14, 2021 9:25:43 GMT -5
I think my post was fairly benign and somehow you got that there was some type of fandom slap fight and actively laughable opinion out of it. You do you. I'm not saying your post gave a fandom slap fight vibe, I'm saying the comparison overall does. I think AEW's diversity issue is one best discussed within the confines of AEW rather than in contrast to a company with worse failings, in large part because of how much the extent of WWE's racial issues can overwhelm the still valid issues that should be talked about with AEW. All I was saying was that if you are going to compare the two on something like race/diversity issues, the more fair comparison would be during the time period that both existed. I don’t think it’s a bold opinion to state that times have thankfully changed and media companies and society in general have become more progressive as years have gone on.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 14, 2021 9:48:01 GMT -5
Just another thing worth thinking about, and let me use a comic book reference. AEW has openly admitted they want to build up more stars that are not white. Would it not be better to had up the young wrestlers they have (and guys like Johnson, Dean, and Caster to me will be stars... as will Top Flight as a tag team) or would you rather them pull a DC and give someone the Cyborg treatment?
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Post by eJm on Mar 14, 2021 9:52:54 GMT -5
Also I think its clear A EW has big plans for Anthony Ogogo too Props to them for not rushing him by the way. As much as I’ve always liked and respected the guy (was rooting for him just like everyone else in 2012), I was worried he was going to be given the quick push because of his status but they are taking their time in training him and integrating him to the overall system of the company so well done.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 10:06:15 GMT -5
Just another thing worth thinking about, and let me use a comic book reference. AEW has openly admitted they want to build up more stars that are not white. Would it not be better to had up the young wrestlers they have (and guys like Johnson, Dean, and Caster to me will be stars... as will Top Flight as a tag team) or would you rather them pull a DC and give someone the Cyborg treatment? But they could've built Deen and Johnson though. I dunno if losing and jobbing on AEW Dark for a year would do that. They had a year to build these guys up and they didnt
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 14, 2021 10:26:14 GMT -5
Just another thing worth thinking about, and let me use a comic book reference. AEW has openly admitted they want to build up more stars that are not white. Would it not be better to had up the young wrestlers they have (and guys like Johnson, Dean, and Caster to me will be stars... as will Top Flight as a tag team) or would you rather them pull a DC and give someone the Cyborg treatment? But they could've built Deen and Johnson though. I dunno if losing and jobbing on AEW Dark for a year would do that. They had a year to build these guys up and they didnt Are either of them ready to main event at this point in their careers? How good at they at promos? Can they hang in the storytelling department? Can you honestly say they are the finished product? You can't just push anyone to the upper midcard or main event and have them be over, the WWE have proven this time after time after time. They could put the belt on either guy at any point, that doesn't mean it will work, too much, too soon is more likely to harm than help.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 10:31:14 GMT -5
But they could've built Deen and Johnson though. I dunno if losing and jobbing on AEW Dark for a year would do that. They had a year to build these guys up and they didnt Are either of them ready to main event at this point in their careers? How good at they at promos? Can they hang in the storytelling department? Can you honestly say they are the finished product? You can't just push anyone to the upper midcard or main event and have them be over, the WWE have proven this time after time after time. They could put the belt on either guy at any point, that doesn't mean it will work, too much, too soon is more likely to harm than help. Its not like they gave them a chance. Instead of jobbing them out they could've seen what they can do. I dont think the Gunn Brothers are that good and are green but they still have a pretty good record. So why were they given an opportunity and not those two?
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 14, 2021 10:38:28 GMT -5
Just another thing worth thinking about, and let me use a comic book reference. AEW has openly admitted they want to build up more stars that are not white. Would it not be better to had up the young wrestlers they have (and guys like Johnson, Dean, and Caster to me will be stars... as will Top Flight as a tag team) or would you rather them pull a DC and give someone the Cyborg treatment? But they could've built Deen and Johnson though. I dunno if losing and jobbing on AEW Dark for a year would do that. They had a year to build these guys up and they didnt If it hadn't been for the pandemic, the likes of Shawn Dean and Lee Johnson possibly wouldn't have got a shot at all, let alone ended up with a contract. The only reason they got a shot in the first place was because AEW desperately needed warm bodies when most of their roster were stranded due to restrictions. Both were relatively inexperienced, with basically no name value beforehand so that year 'jobbing on Dark' has got them in the position that would have usually taken maybe a decade on the name Indies to get to.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 14, 2021 10:39:15 GMT -5
Are either of them ready to main event at this point in their careers? How good at they at promos? Can they hang in the storytelling department? Can you honestly say they are the finished product? You can't just push anyone to the upper midcard or main event and have them be over, the WWE have proven this time after time after time. They could put the belt on either guy at any point, that doesn't mean it will work, too much, too soon is more likely to harm than help. Its not like they gave them a chance. Instead of jobbing them out they could've seen what they can do. I dont think the Gunn Brothers are that good and are green but they still have a pretty good record. So why were they given an opportunity and not those two? Honestly, because they probably have bigger plans for Johnson and Dean. They’re part of the first wave of students who are getting the Young Lion-esque debuts, and are just now moving their ways up, which comes with the idea of wanting the audience to have that “I watched them grow up from day one!” connection. Gunn Club really hasn’t done much; they win now and then mainly due to working with their dad, and never against anyone important, nor are they taking up time on Dynamite. And, again, some of the people we’re talking about here are in their early 20s; guys like MJF may be prodigies at that age, but not everyone else is, and so they get the longer, slower build.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 14, 2021 10:44:50 GMT -5
Are either of them ready to main event at this point in their careers? How good at they at promos? Can they hang in the storytelling department? Can you honestly say they are the finished product? You can't just push anyone to the upper midcard or main event and have them be over, the WWE have proven this time after time after time. They could put the belt on either guy at any point, that doesn't mean it will work, too much, too soon is more likely to harm than help. Its not like they gave them a chance. Instead of jobbing them out they could've seen what they can do. I dont think the Gunn Brothers are that good and are green but they still have a pretty good record. So why were they given an opportunity and not those two? Have the Gunn brothers done anything of note outside of dark? They wrestle with their dad and act as cheerleaders to produce crowd noise, they are not getting a push. If you don't think Lee Johnson is being given bigger opportunities to showcase his talent, you're kidding yourself. He's getting to showcase his in ring skills, getting built up as a guy to watch. Shawn Dean's time is coming, let's not forget until recently he had a full time job as well as wrestling, now he has a gimmick, a partner and is heading up. It doesn't take psychic powers to see he, Charlie Bravo and Lee Johnson are going to be considerably higher up the card than the Gunn brothers in years to come.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 11:06:37 GMT -5
Its not like they gave them a chance. Instead of jobbing them out they could've seen what they can do. I dont think the Gunn Brothers are that good and are green but they still have a pretty good record. So why were they given an opportunity and not those two? Have the Gunn brothers done anything of note outside of dark? They wrestle with their dad and act as cheerleaders to produce crowd noise, they are not getting a push. If you don't think Lee Johnson is being given bigger opportunities to showcase his talent, you're kidding yourself. He's getting to showcase his in ring skills, getting built up as a guy to watch. Shawn Dean's time is coming, let's not forget until recently he had a full time job as well as wrestling, now he has a gimmick, a partner and is heading up. It doesn't take psychic powers to see he, Charlie Bravo and Lee Johnson are going to be considerably higher up the card than the Gunn brothers in years to come. But he always loses. Would it hurt AEW to give them a victory here and there against the jobber talent? They could've been way ahead of the curve if given promo time and such on Dark to get comfortable. Im not saying strap a rocket to them but they literally had one year since the diversity complaint and still things haven't changed at the main event level. At some point AEW is gonna have take flack for that
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 14, 2021 11:44:26 GMT -5
Have the Gunn brothers done anything of note outside of dark? They wrestle with their dad and act as cheerleaders to produce crowd noise, they are not getting a push. If you don't think Lee Johnson is being given bigger opportunities to showcase his talent, you're kidding yourself. He's getting to showcase his in ring skills, getting built up as a guy to watch. Shawn Dean's time is coming, let's not forget until recently he had a full time job as well as wrestling, now he has a gimmick, a partner and is heading up. It doesn't take psychic powers to see he, Charlie Bravo and Lee Johnson are going to be considerably higher up the card than the Gunn brothers in years to come. But he always loses. Would it hurt AEW to give them a victory here and there against the jobber talent? They could've been way ahead of the curve if given promo time and such on Dark to get comfortable. Im not saying strap a rocket to them but they literally had one year since the diversity complaint and still things haven't changed at the main event level. At some point AEW is gonna have take flack for that So your fix is push guys who aren't ready or sign unspecified guys and just treat them as main eventers regardless of quality, ignoring all outside factors like who is actually available and a global pandemic limiting who can work, who will work, and where, and screwing up their booking plans for the Lucha bros who had their momentum stall? If they were doing nothing I could understand the impatience, but absolutely are trying to solve the problem, we know full well they are. We can see who they're working on and what they're trying to achieve with them, but Rome wasn't built in a day, they rush it and they'll mess it up. Wrestling is littered with people who were pushed too hard too soon and never really recovered, I don't want guys who I want to see do well to end upon that list. Lee Johnsons wins are coming, and they'll mean a whole lot more after a meaningful feud, which is coming, given the seeds sown with QT heading towards turning heel.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 14, 2021 12:17:40 GMT -5
But he always loses. Would it hurt AEW to give them a victory here and there against the jobber talent? They could've been way ahead of the curve if given promo time and such on Dark to get comfortable. Im not saying strap a rocket to them but they literally had one year since the diversity complaint and still things haven't changed at the main event level. At some point AEW is gonna have take flack for that So your fix is push guys who aren't ready or sign unspecified guys and just treat them as main eventers regardless of quality, ignoring all outside factors like who is actually available and a global pandemic limiting who can work, who will work, and where, and screwing up their booking plans for the Lucha bros and others? If they were doing nothing I could understand the impatience, but absolutely are trying to solve the problem, we know full well they are. We can see who they're working on, what they're trying to achieve with them, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Lee Johnsons wins are coming, and they'll mean a whole lot more after a meaningful feud, which is coming, given the seeds sown with QT heading towards turning heel. Nah I didn't say push them to the moon. Give them a shot with promos and such. They gave the other jobbers a storyline why not them? All they did was show up and job, no character development, no nothing, but two other jobbers Peter Avalon and Brandon Cutler get a storyline. I dont know why its an arguement that maybe they could've done more than job.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 14, 2021 12:44:31 GMT -5
I think they clearly have plans for Johnson since they KEEP putting him on TV
He started off as part of MJFs "campaign" for a few weeks
He's been aligned with the Nightmare family, teamed up with them in matches
Also, this was one of my favorite moments this year
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blah3x
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Post by blah3x on Mar 14, 2021 13:04:26 GMT -5
I think they clearly have plans for Johnson since they KEEP putting him on TV He started off as part of MJFs "campaign" for a few weeks He's been aligned with the Nightmare family, teamed up with them in matches Also, this was one of my favorite moments this year They keep putting him on TV as a background character. He doesn’t get any lines or get to show any personality. Hell, I don’t even know what his finisher is lol. It’s funny that they’re so high on him but he even lost to Ben Carter who wasn’t even signed.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 14, 2021 13:46:37 GMT -5
Brought this up a few months ago
In terms of main event rep, yes without question
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 14:22:06 GMT -5
Didn't Shawn Dean literally just get signed like two weeks ago?
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Post by Viking Hall on Mar 14, 2021 14:25:25 GMT -5
So your fix is push guys who aren't ready or sign unspecified guys and just treat them as main eventers regardless of quality, ignoring all outside factors like who is actually available and a global pandemic limiting who can work, who will work, and where, and screwing up their booking plans for the Lucha bros and others? If they were doing nothing I could understand the impatience, but absolutely are trying to solve the problem, we know full well they are. We can see who they're working on, what they're trying to achieve with them, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Lee Johnsons wins are coming, and they'll mean a whole lot more after a meaningful feud, which is coming, given the seeds sown with QT heading towards turning heel. Nah I didn't say push them to the moon. Give them a shot with promos and such. They gave the other jobbers a storyline why not them? All they did was show up and job, no character development, no nothing, but two other jobbers Peter Avalon and Brandon Cutler get a storyline. I dont know why its an arguement that maybe they could've done more than job. Because Avalon and Cutler were guys AEW specifically brought in and signed for that role and therefore are a step up on the ladder. As I said before, Lee Johnson and Shawn Dean were literally just brought in as warm bodies (along with dozens of others) when there wasn't enough wrestlers to fill out the shows. The fact that they impressed enough to be signed is a great credit to them since the majority of the other wrestlers who were brought in to do jobs either aren't around anymore or are still just doing the occasional unsigned appearance here and there. These were unseasoned guys, who less than a year a go were barely even hobbiest wrestlers beforehand. Lee Johnson has now wrestled more matches for AEW in those few months than he had in his entire career combined before that, that's how inexperienced some of these guys are.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 14, 2021 14:31:12 GMT -5
Also in spite of Cutler's and Avalon's jobby roles, they're very experienced veterans and also a part of AEW's staff. Lee Johnson's the equivalent of a Young Boy.
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