Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 9, 2021 0:04:04 GMT -5
I wonder if they saw this thread since looking at the cards for both DARK and Elevation this week, there are some real good looking matches on each
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 9, 2021 8:02:39 GMT -5
Storm's criticism seemed to be 'I don't watch the youtube shows, so they don't count' which is kinda weird. It's like someone who only watches the big games in a sports league dismissing a title contender because games against the lower half of the table don't count.
Would AEW's output be better if Britt Baker and others were squashing people on dynamite to get those wins on a show people watch? Will Britt v Leva Bates really move the needle, or will Britt squashes make people sick of Britt again? It won't help her, or Leva, it sure won't help the ratings.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 10:03:24 GMT -5
Dark/Elevation matches absolutely should count towards wrestlers' records but I think AEW could do more to establish a link between those matches and a wrestler's role on Dynamite. Take Max Caster being the number-two ranked contender from a few weeks back. A quick 30-second video package showing highlights of his wins on Dark/Elevation would've made him suddenly wrestling Hangman for the #1 contendership seem much less out of nowhere.
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Post by Terry McConkey on May 9, 2021 10:28:46 GMT -5
The OP's point can certainly apply to SCU. They got to be no.1 contenders by beating up jobber teams on Dark/Elevation. I think that's pathetic, honestly as there are much better teams that have NEVER held the AEW world tag titles that deserve that opportunity more.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on May 9, 2021 10:30:41 GMT -5
My thing is, if a match happens on a AEW show, then it should count. It would make Dark and Elevation more pointless to be honest. I don’t watch them that match. But all matches should count. If a college powerhouse plays a couple of loser teams early in the season, those still count on the record.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 9, 2021 10:37:40 GMT -5
The OP's point can certainly apply to SCU. They got to be no.1 contenders by beating up jobber teams on Dark/Elevation. I think that's pathetic, honestly as there are much better teams that have NEVER held the AEW world tag titles that deserve that opportunity more. Well I get if in a shoot sense that you wish other teams were getting a push. There's a lot of talented teams out there. But in a kayfabe sense, they did beat TH2, the Sydal Brothers, and Chaos Project. Not ranked teams mind you but two of those were good enough to get eliminator matches against the Bucks and the other main evented a Dynamite. If you look at the other teams near the top, not many of them had higher quality wins. Part of this has also been two of the top teams in FTR and Proud and Powerful being sidelined with their current feud but that happens.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 9, 2021 14:04:26 GMT -5
It should count but just don't tell me beating 4 bums on Dark/Elevation equals a high ranking
Use it as a tool to get noticed and pad your record a bit but when it comes down to it, the hottest teams or wrestlers should face each other on Dynamite when it matters when it comes to determining top rankings
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2021 14:40:01 GMT -5
I don’t think there should be a point system but they should be treated like the NCAA rankings.
The quality of opponents you won against should mean more than number of wins.
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bog
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Post by bog on May 9, 2021 15:33:26 GMT -5
The OP's point can certainly apply to SCU. They got to be no.1 contenders by beating up jobber teams on Dark/Elevation. I think that's pathetic, honestly as there are much better teams that have NEVER held the AEW world tag titles that deserve that opportunity more. I just view it as another plot device. Like clearly they want to move forward with this "will SCU break up?" thing, so how do you get them into a "title vs career" match without starting a whole angle/feud between 2 teams we've already seen feud? Use the ranking system. I like how loose they are with it, honestly, but I can see why it bugs others.
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Post by eJm on May 9, 2021 18:32:31 GMT -5
I mean, if we’re comparing them to most sports, most of them don’t have anything in relation to caliber of opponent outside of analysis and such.
Like, to take football/soccer as an example, if top of the league Manchester City lose to bottom of the table Sheffield United, they get 3 points. If Sheffield somehow beat City, they get 3 points. In terms of that one game, it matters barely anything, it’s the wider league standing of whether City keep their place on top of Sheffield don’t get relegated from the Premier League (I mean, Sheffield are relegated anyway so their position is not in doubt but just saying from the point where it could have been salvaged).
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wankah
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Post by wankah on May 9, 2021 18:52:08 GMT -5
I mean, if we’re comparing them to most sports, most of them don’t have anything in relation to caliber of opponent outside of analysis and such. Like, to take football/soccer as an example, if top of the league Manchester United lose to bottom of the table Sheffield United, they get 3 points. If Sheffield somehow beat City, they get 3 points. In terms of that one game, it matters barely anything, it’s the wider league standing of whether City keep their place on top of Sheffield don’t get relegated from the Premier League (I mean, Sheffield are relegated anyway so their position is not in doubt but just saying from the point where it could have been salvaged). In a way you're right, but their execution of this is more like Man United beating Notts County or Orient weekly.
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Post by eJm on May 9, 2021 18:55:55 GMT -5
I mean, if we’re comparing them to most sports, most of them don’t have anything in relation to caliber of opponent outside of analysis and such. Like, to take football/soccer as an example, if top of the league Manchester United lose to bottom of the table Sheffield United, they get 3 points. If Sheffield somehow beat City, they get 3 points. In terms of that one game, it matters barely anything, it’s the wider league standing of whether City keep their place on top of Sheffield don’t get relegated from the Premier League (I mean, Sheffield are relegated anyway so their position is not in doubt but just saying from the point where it could have been salvaged). In a way you're right, but their execution of this is more like Man United beating Notts County or Orient weekly. Sure, but at the same time, you’re still beating people every week to keep your position. One loss can do a lot in that scenario. Same with what’ll likely happen with Hangman, dude beats a lot of people and then he loses to Brian Cage. How does he go from there? Like, again, if the solution to this is “have a segment where you go more into what happened on Dark/Elevation” then hey, do that since, at the end of the day, you want people to watch those shows and have an opinion that stuff happens on them.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2021 22:57:33 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose That's another thing that gets in my craw. If they climb up the ranks on Dark, and then they appear on Dynamite and lose, they pretty much go back to Dark and that's all she wrote. It's kinda like the infamous Nintendo DS port of SmackDown vs. RAW 2008's story mode; you get a title shot after a few wins, and win or lose, you are punished and forced to scratch and claw for years (in-game, and hope you don't run into a game-breaking glitch) to get back to where you were. Like, I get the point that you don't want your established stars losing all the time to unfamiliar faces, but it also makes it so climbing the ladder seems impossible. I know I'm in the minority for agreeing with that statement and for how I feel, yet it makes me struggle seeing the value of Dark beyond stat padding.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 10, 2021 23:20:10 GMT -5
After watching the Danny Limelight interview this week on Elevation I find this thread disrespectful. It's degrading to decide who counts and who doesn't count, when these people bust their ass and work so hard to get where they are. "Quality wins". Who decides that, somebody on the internet? In kayfabe, every wrestler can beat every wrestler, behind the scenes every wrestler is working hard to get somewhere, and in general, this disrespect towards Dark and Elevation, two shows watched by a lot of people, is amazing. Renee Michelle, Fuego Del Sol, Baron Black, Dani Jordyn. All winless. All amazing. All stars in their own right. All have fans. All deserve respect.
I am just hyped right now, but does anyone who thinks Dark and Elevation don't matter ever worked hard to get somewhere? Imagine you work somewhere and people online go "Nah, you don't count because you're not on the 8th floor everyday, you're on the 7th." It is disrespectful to say that their matches don't count because they're indie people, starting out, or new to the promotion. That only the show on TNT matters, but every episode not on TNT doesn't. That only the stars in a company matter. That only being a star matters.
Orange was once unfamiliar, Darby was unfamiliar, John Silver started out losing unfamiliar and then became one of the most famous over wrestlers in the company. Respect people who bust their ass to make it. Normalize seeing new people and giving them a chance. Dark and Elevation matter, even if they're free to watch on a platform you take for granted.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 10, 2021 23:23:25 GMT -5
another thing I'll say is AEW kind of made getting "quality wins" impossible take the Acclaimed for example, they were racking up wins on Dark, come to Dynamite to face the Young Bucks and they lose. Bear Country getting wins on Dark, face Jurassic Express on Dynamite and lose, Abadon gets wins on Dark, loses to Hikaru Shida, Matt Sydal getting wins on Dark, Faces Kenny Omega on Dynamite and loses. so really facing jobbers isn't necessarily the problem it's when these guys and girls face the "quality" opponent they lose That's another thing that gets in my craw. If they climb up the ranks on Dark, and then they appear on Dynamite and lose, they pretty much go back to Dark and that's all she wrote. It's kinda like the infamous Nintendo DS port of SmackDown vs. RAW 2008's story mode; you get a title shot after a few wins, and win or lose, you are punished and forced to scratch and claw for years (in-game, and hope you don't run into a game-breaking glitch) to get back to where you were. Like, I get the point that you don't want your established stars losing all the time to unfamiliar faces, but it also makes it so climbing the ladder seems impossible. I know I'm in the minority for agreeing with that statement and for how I feel, yet it makes me struggle seeing the value of Dark beyond stat padding. There are a ton of wrestlers who win and lose on DARK who also compete and win on Dynamite. There are signed talent like Janela and Sydal who have a ton of quality wins but don't have a Dynamite one yet. There are also guys and girls like Comoroto, Hobbs, Silver, Reynolds, Limelight, Johnson, Conti, Velvet, Abadon, etc who started on DARK and worked their way up to Dynamite to establish themselves as bigger deals both on that show and on those Youtube shows. DARK/Elevation isn't some demotion, it's a place to prove your worth, it's always been treated that way. I also fail to see how it doesn't matter when the likes of Caster, 10, Conti, Abadon, Varsity Blondes, Bear Country, and others have gotten into the top 5 rankings off of DARK performances. Even PAC got back in the ranks competing on DARK/Elevation, I really don't see the issue with any of it but maybe it's just me.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 10, 2021 23:30:13 GMT -5
After watching the Danny Limelight interview this week on Elevation I find this thread disgusting. It's just pure arrogance to decide who counts and who doesn't count, when these people bust their ass and work so hard to get where they are. "Quality wins". Who decides that, somebody on the internet? In kayfabe, every wrestler can beat every wrestler, behind the scenes every wrestler is working hard to get somewhere, and in general, this disrespect towards Dark and Elevation, two shows watched by a lot of people, is amazing. I am just hyped right now, but does anyone who thinks Dark and Elevation ever taken a bump? Or worked hard to get somewhere? Imagine you work somewhere and people online go "Nah, you don't count because you're not on the 8th floor everyday, you're on the 7th." Imagine the arrogance, the hubris, to disrespect people so much that thinking their matches don't count because they're indie people, starting out, or new to the promotion. That only the show on TNT matters, but every episode not on TNT doesn't. And I like how people say these faces are "unfamiliar". Orange was unfamiliar, Darby was unfamiliar, John Silver started out losing unfamiliar and then became one of the most famous over wrestlers in the company. Respect people who bust their ass to make it. Normalize seeing new people and giving them a chance. And stop acting like Dark and Elevation don't matter because they're free to watch on a platform you take for granted. On commentary tonight they even stressed how a lot of these workers have been successful on the Indies, hell Renee Michelle was put over as a four time Maryland Championship Wrestling Women's Champion, Raychell Rose has won titles, Davis and Jones last week were billed as tag champions in their home Pittsburgh Promotion, among other examples. None of these wrestlers are treated as Jobbers. There are SOME rookies, mostly the Nightare Factory kids, but a lot of these wrestlers have been grinding for years, winning titles everywhere. They are put over as such, as it getting over just how hard it is to get that singular win and momentum in AEW, where there are some of the most fierce competition in the world. DARK and Elevation not "counting" makes no sense to me, and overall this thread is moot in July since DARK is going to probably return to it's 3-4 Match formula with touring, and Elevation will become the lone big enhancement/showcase show... but will it still air in Daily's? Elsewhere? That's up for debate. One things for sure, if people are for some reason unhappy with how things are run anyway, in a month, it's going to change anyway, so it's whatever!
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Post by toodarkmark on May 10, 2021 23:32:58 GMT -5
That's another thing that gets in my craw. If they climb up the ranks on Dark, and then they appear on Dynamite and lose, they pretty much go back to Dark and that's all she wrote. Here is the fix. Dark is a wrestling show that matters in the rankings and the history of the company. Dynamite is a show, Dark is a show, Elevation is a show. They're all in the same Universe. It's a shared Universe, they just can't all fit into two hours of Dynamite. Again, it's all the same Universe. This isn't a video game, this isn't "years" where the only thing that matters is winning a championship on Dynamite, people on Dark and Elevation are actual human beings. Some will be well known someday, some won't. All of them sacrificed a lot to be there, worked hard, and will go back to working indies for small money, driving long distances, and bleeding in front of small crowds. A few will get contracts with AEW. All of the people on Dark and Elevation actually "made" it. Dynamite is one show, where the top stars appear, and some up and comers. Not EVERYONE is a top star. I don't know if it's video games or whatever that's made people think "Oh only a certain type of wrestler matters", but the people on Elevation and Dark matter just as much as the people on Dynamite, and they're all in the same place. If you watch them a few times, you start to get to know their move sets. They are no longer unfamiliar. You now know their name, and from commentary, a lot of the time their gimmick and background. If you need to learn more, there are vlogs, indie matches, and interviews online if you need more information. It is now on them to get over, like a John Silver or a Orange Cassidy did. I remember watching Kane and Edge on WCW be unfamiliar and they became all timers. The value of Dark is every single wrestler who appears on there has gotten to a bigger spot in the wrestling world. They have all worked hard, and are now a larger platform where they have a chance to show the world what they can do. Because less people watch it than Dynamite, it does not mean it less important, and has no value. It has plenty of value. The wrestlers have a chance to help their indie careers, or break through in AEW. The value of the show is providing entertainment every week to a large audience who enjoys it, and helping wrestlers of all places in their careers have a match. And the top guys and women get to have matches with someone lower on the card, and help them build for their futures, and both help each other get over.
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Rave
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Post by Rave on May 11, 2021 0:18:02 GMT -5
The value of Dark is every single wrestler who appears on there has gotten to a bigger spot in the wrestling world. They have all worked hard, and are now a larger platform where they have a chance to show the world what they can do. Because less people watch it than Dynamite, it does not mean it less important, and has no value. It has plenty of value. The wrestlers have a chance to help their indie careers, or break through in AEW. The value of the show is providing entertainment every week to a large audience who enjoys it, and helping wrestlers of all places in their careers have a match. And the top guys and women get to have matches with someone lower on the card, and help them build for their futures, and both help each other get over. THIS. This is why the idea of not counting Dark and Elevation is abhorrent to me. It's not just the idea that everything should matter and should be used to further something, it's that all the work everyone on these shows puts in would be devalued by it not counting. That's incredibly insulting to them.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 0:34:32 GMT -5
I don’t think anyone is trying to be disrespectful to dark talent, they made it to a major companies youtube wrestling show, they don’t give those spots to just anybody, it takes a lot of talent and star power. Of course wrestling isn’t real so in kayfabe anyone can beat anyone, that’s not the narrative AEW is telling. For a lot of these guys you loss seven or eight matches if they book you that long, get a win vs. other dark talent, eventually maybe get a win over a “elite” talent like Sonny Kiss, then head to Dynamite and hopefully get a win there. Rinse and repeat. It’s AEW saying there’s a hierarchy system, not us. That’s the thing, they are also saying a win vs. a guy that never won a match counts the same as winning a match vs. Mox. You can’t have it both ways. That’s why some of us are frustrated with their booking, not the talent themselves.
There’s a lot of Dark talent, I wish they would bring back or some I’d rather have of the main roster than some people they officially signed. That Serpinco has been getting wins longer than anyone and was in a Dynamite mainevent and he’s still not been made “all elite”. That’s the other thing are they are fighting for jobs and after almost a year they still haven’t got one, if AEW doesn’t see them as important why should I?
Of course there’s guys like Danny Limelight talented as hell. I’m a fan of the guy, he’s tag champ in CWfH, but that’s the thing in wrestling being a big star in small pond show like CWfH doesn’t equal the same amount of kayfabe success in a big promotion like AEW. So it’s not that we’re saying these guys don’t matter, just a show with 12 matches in a row with little or no barring on Dynamite, it’s hard for some of us to get into that. Wrestling is my least favorite part of wrestling.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 0:51:43 GMT -5
I think a lot of the issues with Dark and Elevation would be resolved if they'd make some kind of effort to actually acknowledge it's a thing on Dynamite beyond an unremarked upon ticker that pops up at random during matches. Just make the time to have some weekly highlight reel of it or something to make it feel like it exists for reasons beyond, "Pad people's win columns to make them look better for losing every time they actually appear on TV." Not that I'd make the time to watch them regardless but at least they wouldn't feel as utterly pointless as they do now if they actually acted like there was a reason to watch them.
That said though, yeah, something like PAC where he's had one notable win all year but is number two for beating a bunch of jobbers is just stupid.
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