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Post by toodarkmark on May 11, 2021 1:09:05 GMT -5
I don’t think anyone is trying to be disrespectful to dark talent, they made it to a major companies youtube wrestling show, they don’t give those spots to just anybody, it takes a lot of talent and star power. Of course wrestling isn’t real so in kayfabe anyone can beat anyone, that’s not the narrative AEW is telling. For a lot of these guys you loss seven or eight matches if they book you that long, get a win vs. other dark talent, eventually maybe get a win over a “elite” talent like Sonny Kiss, then head to Dynamite and hopefully get a win there. Rinse and repeat. It’s AEW saying there’s a hierarchy system, not us. I'm not sure what the issue is with what you described. What is the problem with this narrative? You have openly said in the past you have no interest in watching Dark or Elevation. This just isn't for you, because you want something out of wrestling, which is big stars versus big stars. You don't have time in your busy week of watching wrestling. How is that not disrespectful to people who work on these shows? There's nothing wrong with a system of sometimes they beat big stars, sometimes they beat mediums stars, sometimes they beat smaller stars. Name one sport there isn't a hierarchy system? Name a wrestling promotion that doesn't have a hierarchy system. I'm not even sure what your critique is here. So in real sports, a win is only a win against someone who is also a winner? In Football a win against Green Bay is more of a win than against Chicago this year? I mean, for the sake of talk shows maybe, but a win is a win. If you're talking about strength of schedule, that's something people can debate sure, but you're frustrated by something that in both kayfabe and the real world is pretty normal, but for some reason when it comes to a worked ranking system, people are now OBSESSED with where wins come from. And guess what, you DO devalue people when you say that. If it makes it easier to swallow, maybe just pretend the matches are random, and that someone is facing someone just because on Dynamite, and it has nothing to do with kayfabe wins against who the matchmakers have them going against. In the real world, Ohio State and Alabama blow out teams before they get to each other. Not everyone is signed to a contract. So a wrestler only matters if they get an Elite graphic? That's it? You can't care about someone who wins and didn't get a graphic on their roster page and a tweet? That's the only way someone has value? Not their wins, or them fighting to get that graphic, or them on the vlogs, or the matches they put on, but some arbitrary internet thing? That's the only way you know someone means something? Then don't. No one says to watch it. But don't disrespect the people who do watch it. Don't disrespect the people who appear on it. Don't disrespect something that doesn't work for you, but obviously works for a lot of other people. I don't what to say about this. If wrestling is your least favorite part of wrestling, then wrestling shows with wrestlers obviously is not for you. I also don't see why a show kind of kayfabe based in reality, that is putting on wrestling shows, should have to cater to someone who feels wrestling is just not that important. In the end, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that these people's accomplishments don't matter. AEW says they matter, because the records show it, and they show the matches. There is nothing else that needs to be done. Again, someone who is 0-20 matters just as much as someone who is 20-0, to SOMEONE. If only stars wrestling other stars make sense to you, then you go ahead and watch that. But to a lot of other people, wrestlers wrestling wrestlers, from all places in the world, and from different parts of the card, matters. And that's who these shows are for.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 11, 2021 1:15:20 GMT -5
Not that I'd make the time to watch them regardless So you feel very comfortable putting down something you don't watch? You don't watch it. You don't see the matches he had. You don't know their names. They're nothing more than jobbers to you. Complete and utterly disrespectful to the people who work both shows. If I don't watch something, I don't feel comfortable critiquing it, but I guess that's just me.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 1:24:05 GMT -5
Not that I'd make the time to watch them regardless So you feel very comfortable putting down something you don't watch? You don't watch it. You don't see the matches he had. You don't know their names. They're nothing more than jobbers to you. Complete and utterly disrespectful to the people who work both shows. If I don't watch something, I don't feel comfortable critiquing it, but I guess that's just me. This is a stupid, stupid place to argue from. You don't have to watch Dark to know that Dynamite treats it as completely inconsequential fluff that is barely worth even bringing up. From the perspective of someone who only watches the main show - y'know, like the vast majority of AEW's audience does - what has PAC done to warrant being the #2 guy in the company right now? He beat Kingston and Nemeth months ago. That's it. It's stupid in the context of the broader story. No one is saying there's anything wrong with the talent appearing on Dark as performers. That is an absolutely nonsensical place you're arguing from. They're saying that in the broader context of AEW they're completely inconsequential and it doesn't make sense to act like beating them is equivalent to winning a match on Dynamite. It's like if WWE tried to build up the next challenger to Lashley almost entirely on Main Event, it'd just be stupid. Except at least WWE can be assed to actually show recaps of Main Event every once in awhile.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 11, 2021 1:29:35 GMT -5
So you feel very comfortable putting down something you don't watch? You don't watch it. You don't see the matches he had. You don't know their names. They're nothing more than jobbers to you. Complete and utterly disrespectful to the people who work both shows. If I don't watch something, I don't feel comfortable critiquing it, but I guess that's just me. This is a stupid, stupid place to argue from. You don't have to watch Dark to know that Dynamite treats it as completely inconsequential fluff that is barely worth even bringing up. From the perspective of someone who only watches the main show - y'know, like the vast majority of AEW's audience does - what has PAC done to warrant being the #2 guy in the company right now? He beat Kingston and Nemeth months ago. That's it. It's stupid in the context of the broader story. No one is saying there's anything wrong with the talent appearing on Dark as performers. That is an absolutely nonsensical place you're arguing from. They're saying that in the broader context of AEW they're completely inconsequential and it doesn't make sense to act like beating them is equivalent to winning a match on Dynamite. It'd be like if WWE tried to build up the next challenger to Lashley almost entirely on Main Event, it'd just be stupid. PAC hasn't been pinned since February of 2020 and has hovered in the top five because of winning on DARK matches and staying consistent. It's PAC, he's not some no name jobber, he has one of the overall best records in AEW and that helps him just as much as his recent stuff. In the very beginning of AEW they said your overall record would factor in to things just as much as what you could be doing currently. PAC's a dominant bastard. If he beats the number one ranked wrestler in Orange on top of that, who cares? He'll have beaten the number one guy, and this is all moot. I'm not saying AEW couldn't stand to recap or show more stuff from Elevation or DARK, but acting like it's just "fluff" when plenty of interviews and development can happen on these shows at any time and that includes this week, it feels so weird to just call them throwaway shows or shows that don't matter. You do you, watch whatever you want and think however you want, but it just doesn't seem like it's worth being upset over in the end, especially since as I said earlier, in July, DARK's gonna be way different anyway with touring as it's going to be, and who knows what Elevation is going to look like. Theyre going to be retooling these brands one way or the other.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 1:30:50 GMT -5
acting like it's just "fluff" when plenty of interviews and development can happen on these shows at any time and that includes this week, it feels so weird to just call them throwaway shows or shows that don't matter. And how often does that have any impact on Dynamite whatsoever?
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Post by toodarkmark on May 11, 2021 1:32:23 GMT -5
So you feel very comfortable putting down something you don't watch? You don't watch it. You don't see the matches he had. You don't know their names. They're nothing more than jobbers to you. Complete and utterly disrespectful to the people who work both shows. If I don't watch something, I don't feel comfortable critiquing it, but I guess that's just me. This is a stupid, stupid place to argue from. You don't have to watch Dark to know that Dynamite treats it as completely inconsequential fluff that is barely worth even bringing up. From the perspective of someone who only watches the main show - y'know, like the vast majority of AEW's audience does - what has PAC done to warrant being the #2 guy in the company right now? He beat Kingston and Nemeth months ago. That's it. It's stupid in the context of the broader story. No one is saying there's anything wrong with the talent appearing on Dark as performers. That is an absolutely nonsensical place you're arguing from. They're saying that in the broader context of AEW they're completely inconsequential and it doesn't make sense to act like beating them is equivalent to winning a match on Dynamite. It'd be like if WWE tried to build up the next challenger to Lashley almost entirely on Main Event, it'd just be stupid. And there is the problem. You have a WWE perspective on professional wrestling. Dynamite doesn't treat it as inconsequential, they have a ticker saying who won, and they mention the records. That is consequential. It is a shared Universe. It happens on a show that is watched by 1.2 million people and it also happens on a show watched by 500k people online. It's the same thing. There is no difference. The only difference is you don't watch it. It's disrespectful to fans and wrestlers, and the company, to say the only thing that matters is the most popular aspect of something, that the most people watch. Insulting. You treat something as inconsequential because you don't watch it. AEW doesn't do that, you do that. I'm telling you, every single wrestler on Dark and Elevation is consequential. It's not comparable to Main Event, because WWE is another kind of company, and Main Event is a different concept. I'm walking away from talking to you, because you are hyper negative about a lot of things, and that's your choice. You are hyper negative about something you don't even watch, and I'm "stupid" for pointing out that critiquing something you don't watch is just weird to me. You have a need to put down things you don't watch, and I can't explain to someone why something they don't watch or like or want to watch or think is worth watching, matters.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2021 1:35:29 GMT -5
Lord, how did, "It wouldn't kill them to run the occasional video recap of Dark once in awhile," turn into, ""You're hyper negative and refuse to give all of these promising talents a chance,"? God, a lot of people take even the mildest criticism of AEW waaaaaaaaaay too personally. Good to know that apparently my opinion on a story not working within the context of the main show apparently doesn't count unless I watch four hours of squash matches every week to go with it. And I'm sure even if I did it wouldn't count for some reason.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 11, 2021 1:36:07 GMT -5
acting like it's just "fluff" when plenty of interviews and development can happen on these shows at any time and that includes this week, it feels so weird to just call them throwaway shows or shows that don't matter. And how often does that have any impact on Dynamite whatsoever? I mean when you look at the rankings? Plenty. Sometimes they will show a DARK segment recap if it matters to an ongoing story, however if you watch the show as a whole you are also rewarded with these types of things so the show in turn doesn't feel useless as some might say You obviously don't feel the same, so it's whatever, I just think Elevation and DARK are fine, fun watches, that help the AEW product as a whole, especially when it comes to finding talent, cultivating talent, and moreover, giving a lot of talent reps, something they have been open about due to not touring in the pandemic. It's saved a lot of rust and potential injury.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 11, 2021 1:38:53 GMT -5
Lord, how did, "It wouldn't kill them to run the occasional video recap of Dark once in awhile," turn into, ""You're hyper negative and refuse to give all of these promising talents a chance,"? God, a lot of people take even the mildest criticism of AEW waaaaaaaaaay too personally. Granted, he's taken it a bit personally because he likes the talent on the show, but I think he's more trying to explain why the show is beneficial and not a waste of time, but he's emotionally invested so he's taken it a bit personally in terms of defending the product. That being said. This doesn't have to turn into another "You can't criticize AEW" thread, and I'm begging people on BOTH SIDES to f***ing not do that.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 11, 2021 1:40:38 GMT -5
Lord, how did, "It wouldn't kill them to run the occasional video recap of Dark once in awhile," turn into, ""You're hyper negative and refuse to give all of these promising talents a chance,"? God, a lot of people take even the mildest criticism of AEW waaaaaaaaaay too personally. Granted, he's taken it a bit personally because he likes the talent on the show, but I think he's more trying to explain why the show is beneficial and not a waste of time This doesn't have to turn into another "You can't criticize AEW" thread, and I'm begging people on BOTH SIDES to f***ing not. I did say he is hyper negative and that's his thing. It's fine to be hyper negative, it's something that's great for some people, I just don't understand being hyper negative about something people don't watch.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on May 11, 2021 1:43:35 GMT -5
Granted, he's taken it a bit personally because he likes the talent on the show, but I think he's more trying to explain why the show is beneficial and not a waste of time This doesn't have to turn into another "You can't criticize AEW" thread, and I'm begging people on BOTH SIDES to f***ing not. I did say he is hyper negative and that's his thing. It's fine to be hyper negative, it's something that's great for some people, I just don't understand being hyper negative about something people don't watch. I get it from the perspective that the likes of Lizuka and Uppidy just want better presentation for the programs and just have differing viewpoints on how they think the ranking system is flawed or it simply doesn't work for them. It is what it is man. That's why these debate threads exist. Lizuka and Uppidy like what they like and it keeps them coming back to AEW, but obviously if they don't like something or want to critique something they're going to do it too. It's just important to remember not to get so emotionally strung out over it because that's just going to make arguments worse, and then you get the "AEW can NEVER be criticized" comments, and those just need to end.
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Post by toodarkmark on May 11, 2021 1:47:28 GMT -5
I did say he is hyper negative and that's his thing. It's fine to be hyper negative, it's something that's great for some people, I just don't understand being hyper negative about something people don't watch. I get it from the perspective that the likes of Lizuka and Uppidy just want better presentation for the programs and just have differing viewpoints on how they think the ranking system is flawed or it simply doesn't work for them. It is what it is man. That's why these debate threads exist. Lizuka and Uppidy like what they like and it keeps them coming back to AEW, but obviously if they don't like something or want to critique something they're going to do it too. It's just important to remember not to get so emotionally strung out over it because that's just going to make arguments worse, and then you get the "AEW can NEVER be criticized" comments, and those just need to end. I'm going to point out if someone doesn't watch something but feels the need to critique it and think it shouldn't exist, especially after Danny Limelight's promo tonight. I'll get emotional about someone calling me stupid and my opinion stupid. And this isn't AEW really, this is about respecting people who bust their ass and sacrifice to follow their dream, and the people who so easily dismiss them as below them because they're not on a particular show. I am stupid for not walking away after being called stupid. That's for sure.
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Post by polarbearpete on May 11, 2021 7:18:31 GMT -5
I think Dark and Elevation matches should definitely count towards the rankings. But some people wanting to discuss the merits of the shows and the way they are presented is not them disrespecting the talent who work on the shows and their families. That’s just creating a strawman.
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Post by eJm on May 11, 2021 9:44:44 GMT -5
Yeah, look, has to be said, some of the discussion here is crazy and across other parts of the board.
There's nothing wrong with criticizing AEW, nor is there anything wrong with people criticizing your criticism. To say otherwise is crazy and some of the people getting offended on both sides just need to calm down in general and don't act like the world's against them if someone counters their view. I need to get better at it and people in this thread and beyond need to be better.
And hey, needs to be said again, I don't think how AEW's treated Dark and Elevation is trivial at all and the fact that it's having an effect on the storyline is only a good thing on how they're seen as shows compared to others in the past. But there is no harm in, say, a 5-minute segment on Dynamite or even a YouTube show that specialises in running down recent events and how they've affected the rankings for those who want a summary of the events of Dark, Elevation or even Dynamite. Heck, this alleged 2nd show on TNT could do exactly that along with having some matches of its own.
For the record, though, as long as I live, I'll never understand "wrestling is the worst part of wrestling" as a term for many reasons, one off the top of my head how nobody talks about how shit the build for Austin/Rock II was but how great the match was and now nobody talks about how great the build for HHH/Orton at WrestleMania 25 was but how shit the match was. You can put all the acting and pageantry you want on something but if the final product is shite, the final product is shite. That's just me, though.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on May 11, 2021 10:02:58 GMT -5
Yeah, look, has to be said, some of the discussion here is crazy and across other parts of the board. There's nothing wrong with criticizing AEW, nor is there anything wrong with people criticizing your criticism. To say otherwise is crazy and some of the people getting offended on both sides just need to calm down in general and don't act like the world's against them if someone counters their view. I need to get better at it and people in this thread and beyond need to be better. And hey, needs to be said again, I don't think how AEW's treated Dark and Elevation is trivial at all and the fact that it's having an effect on the storyline is only a good thing on how they're seen as shows compared to others in the past. But there is no harm in, say, a 5-minute segment on Dynamite or even a YouTube show that specialises in running down recent events and how they've affected the rankings for those who want a summary of the events of Dark, Elevation or even Dynamite. Heck, this alleged 2nd show on TNT could do exactly that along with having some matches of its own. For the record, though, as long as I live, I'll never understand "wrestling is the worst part of wrestling" as a term for many reasons, one off the top of my head how nobody talks about how shit the build for Austin/Rock II was but how great the match was and now nobody talks about how great the build for HHH/Orton at WrestleMania 25 was but how shit the match was. You can put all the acting and pageantry you want on something but if the final product is shite, the final product is shite. That's just me, though. The Austin/Rock 2 build point is such a great one. I remember being on boards at the time and people FREAKING about the whole Debra thing. Completely lost to time. Lots of stuff like that will probably happen with AEW and WWE in this generation.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 11, 2021 10:36:07 GMT -5
Yeah, look, has to be said, some of the discussion here is crazy and across other parts of the board. There's nothing wrong with criticizing AEW, nor is there anything wrong with people criticizing your criticism. To say otherwise is crazy and some of the people getting offended on both sides just need to calm down in general and don't act like the world's against them if someone counters their view. I need to get better at it and people in this thread and beyond need to be better. And hey, needs to be said again, I don't think how AEW's treated Dark and Elevation is trivial at all and the fact that it's having an effect on the storyline is only a good thing on how they're seen as shows compared to others in the past. But there is no harm in, say, a 5-minute segment on Dynamite or even a YouTube show that specialises in running down recent events and how they've affected the rankings for those who want a summary of the events of Dark, Elevation or even Dynamite. Heck, this alleged 2nd show on TNT could do exactly that along with having some matches of its own. For the record, though, as long as I live, I'll never understand "wrestling is the worst part of wrestling" as a term for many reasons, one off the top of my head how nobody talks about how shit the build for Austin/Rock II was but how great the match was and now nobody talks about how great the build for HHH/Orton at WrestleMania 25 was but how shit the match was. You can put all the acting and pageantry you want on something but if the final product is shite, the final product is shite. That's just me, though. The Austin/Rock 2 build point is such a great one. I remember being on boards at the time and people FREAKING about the whole Debra thing. Completely lost to time. Lots of stuff like that will probably happen with AEW and WWE in this generation. Hell, we JUST had that happen with Banks v Belair at the last WM. Had a shocker of a build but probably had the best match of the weekend.
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Post by eJm on May 11, 2021 10:41:01 GMT -5
The Austin/Rock 2 build point is such a great one. I remember being on boards at the time and people FREAKING about the whole Debra thing. Completely lost to time. Lots of stuff like that will probably happen with AEW and WWE in this generation. Hell, we JUST had that happen with Banks v Belair at the last WM. Had a shocker of a build but probably had the best match of the weekend. That’s a great example too considering, like, they only decided that was main eventing one of the nights until the last minute and it showed.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 11, 2021 11:01:01 GMT -5
Hell, we JUST had that happen with Banks v Belair at the last WM. Had a shocker of a build but probably had the best match of the weekend. That’s a great example too considering, like, they only decided that was main eventing one of the nights until the last minute and it showed. Why, because the babyface won? *rimshot* Seriously, though, I didn’t notice anything like that. What was odd about it?
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Post by eJm on May 11, 2021 11:03:51 GMT -5
That’s a great example too considering, like, they only decided that was main eventing one of the nights until the last minute and it showed. Why, because the babyface won? *rimshot* Seriously, though, I didn’t notice anything like that. What was odd about it? Just the general pacing and promotion of it. Like, from what I was hearing from others for the most part, it felt more like a middle of the card feud rather than a match that would headline a night of WrestleMania, especially compared to how the triple threat and such was built.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on May 11, 2021 11:35:04 GMT -5
Not every game an NBA team plays during the season is broadcast on national Television, that still counts towards their record for the year.
From a Kayfabe/Real life perspective they only have 2 hours of TV time a week, they need to have some other way to have their wrestlers work and earn their way to big matches with bigger paydays on TNT
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