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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 19, 2021 2:44:51 GMT -5
Just random thoughts on the overall thing here... I've been having and didn't post but what the hell its 3:30am and I can't sleep it's the perfect time to make a post >_>
Let my preface this by saying that I enjoy AEW... I have not really been watching Smackdown or any of the WWE product regularly... and as I stated earlier I watched neither show on Friday and instead saw Danhausen at Create-a-pro in New York...
That said... most of what's been posted revolving around the ratings and stuff does feel like goal post moving.
The first came out and AEW lost in the overall ratings, and tied for most of the regular demos... the they went slice by slice over the overrun getting similar results except for like one Demographic and called it a victory, something that like... they've never really done before ever?
if Tony didn't do the whole "DECLARE VICTORY!" early thing we likely wouldn't have this now either... Hell just from the regular ratings there was good news and should have been enough to just count this week as a positive as they gained viewers, but it's not really enough to justify calling a VICTORY.
and let's be real here if the shoe was on the other foot and Vince publicly declared victory a full week before a show and then did the same thing a lot of people would rightfully be calling it out for being petty bullshit.
So again It was absolutely good week for Rampage but in my opinion the whole specifics to justify the idea that it was actually a victory seems like they're more trying to convince people that it was, than it actually being one.
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Post by eJm on Oct 19, 2021 2:59:17 GMT -5
and let's be real here if the shoe was on the other foot and Vince publicly declared victory a full week before a show and then did the same thing a lot of people would rightfully be calling it out for being petty bullshit. On the one hand, you’re not wrong. On the other, I’d absolutely advocate for Vince doing this sort of stuff publicly. Why? Because 95% of the time, he’s a coward who hides behind whoever is his favorite that week on Twitter or in interviews to justify different things he does. He’s making all these decisions or approving them at the end of the day, he should fall on his own sword like Khan does.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 19, 2021 3:24:31 GMT -5
So my understanding is that anyone with a TV who's over 49 doesn't really matter? Who cares what those guys watched.
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Post by eJm on Oct 19, 2021 4:23:13 GMT -5
So my understanding is that anyone with a TV who's over 49 doesn't really matter? Who cares what those guys watched. To put a long story short, that's not the case. Like most things, it's all about intention and what audience you're aiming for. If you're trying to aim a show at 18-49, you likely would want those numbers to be higher and hit the targets you have for it. If it's not where it should be, you have to make changes to try and get that audience. It's why Raw has been getting renewals from USA for years because of its consistent demos and why, say, NCIS has been on the air for what feels like the lifetime of Television history because it gets the audience it has, the much older crowds.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 19, 2021 4:43:15 GMT -5
So my understanding is that anyone with a TV who's over 49 doesn't really matter? Who cares what those guys watched. To put a long story short, that's not the case. Like most things, it's all about intention and what audience you're aiming for. If you're trying to aim a show at 18-49, you likely would want those numbers to be higher and hit the targets you have for it. If it's not where it should be, you have to make changes to try and get that audience. It's why Raw has been getting renewals from USA for years because of its consistent demos and why, say, NCIS has been on the air for what feels like the lifetime of Television history because it gets the audience it has, the much older crowds. I get that, and AEW should be proud of what it's achieved here but there's this sense that they've won even though WWE's numbers are much higher, but they're only 50+ so who cares. Those viewers matter too.
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Post by eJm on Oct 19, 2021 4:48:20 GMT -5
To put a long story short, that's not the case. Like most things, it's all about intention and what audience you're aiming for. If you're trying to aim a show at 18-49, you likely would want those numbers to be higher and hit the targets you have for it. If it's not where it should be, you have to make changes to try and get that audience. It's why Raw has been getting renewals from USA for years because of its consistent demos and why, say, NCIS has been on the air for what feels like the lifetime of Television history because it gets the audience it has, the much older crowds. I get that, and AEW should be proud of what it's achieved here but there's this sense that they've won even though WWE's numbers are much higher, but they're only 50+ so who cares. Those viewers matter too. Sure, but again, having high viewership is only good if that viewership is the audience you want and if potential advertisers see that the audience won’t be interested in the brands that skew younger, then you lose potential revenue from that. One of the recent problems even in major sports is that viewership is still consistent, even though it has dropped in the past decade, some are being seen as old man sport. The NBA demos steer much younger and MLB reflects much older, as an example and with sports needing young people to carry on, it’s a concern even if right now the playoffs are doing well ratings wise. As someone pointed out before, the reason why this wasn’t an issue with the Monday Night Wars was because they already were skewed younger so there’s no reason to try and change anything when that was already the case, hence why both sides were obsessed with viewership.
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Post by eJm on Oct 19, 2021 5:09:33 GMT -5
Also to add, if you’re going to say “Well, the system’s out of date and doesn’t reflect viewership habits in 2021”…I mean…yeah, it doesn’t. Minimum wage doesn’t reflect inflation, this generation is looking to be the first to have less money than their parents, most of them likely to be renting for the rest of their lives rather than going on the housing market etc.
The problem is, just like a lot of things, Nielson is so engrained in television ratings, anything to rival it would need a entire massive plan to not only convince people it would be a better system to use but also find a way to deal with Nielson themselves likely lobbying for people to keep theirs. Basically, a Tony Khan for TV ratings tracking.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Oct 19, 2021 5:59:31 GMT -5
I was a WCW kid and Bischoff's presentation circa '96 to '98 and the nWo storyline were a big reason why... but the guy was a one-trick pony. His big plan to regain the momentum he had already ceded to the WWF was to change WCW's appearance and sets, sign celebrities from the music world to big contracts, and give away a million dollars while creating some of the most dreadful television I had ever seen. He brought WCW so low that Vince Russo's chaos felt like a breath of fresh air for a time. So yeah, he beat the WWF for a brief time and forced their hand, but he never adapted when they rose to the challenge. Khan and AEW have been adapting on the fly since Dynamite began and the product continues to be fresh, engaging, and can't-miss.
And hey, maybe Khan will go off the deep end in a few years and sign KISS, but right now all I know is that he's producing a product that, as a Bischoff-era WCW fan, is the first time wrestling has grabbed me longterm since 2001.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Oct 19, 2021 6:03:33 GMT -5
When Tony did his speech at All Out '19 he still seemed kind of awestruck that he was in a wrestling ring in his own promotion. The evolution from that to coked out "wrap it up wweailuers" shitposter has been something to behold.
edit:
People preferred watching ads to the contract signing.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 19, 2021 7:01:58 GMT -5
Also to add, if you’re going to say “Well, the system’s out of date and doesn’t reflect viewership habits in 2021”…I mean…yeah, it doesn’t. Minimum wage doesn’t reflect inflation, this generation is looking to be the first to have less money than their parents, most of them likely to be renting for the rest of their lives rather than going on the housing market etc. The problem is, just like a lot of things, Nielson is so engrained in television ratings, anything to rival it would need a entire massive plan to not only convince people it would be a better system to use but also find a way to deal with Nielson themselves likely lobbying for people to keep theirs. Basically, a Tony Khan for TV ratings tracking. Nobody is going to play nicer and come up with a system unless the government steps in to mandate one, and that's not really in the conversation right now. But the networks and the companies putting out major content in need of this information do have access to people who can get it for them. Nielsen ratings doesn't do social media, but there's plenty of firms that will, and from TV networks down to individual sports teams, those services get taken advantage of. Youtube traffic for clips is taken into consideration and there's a million people you can have run stuff for you on that front. Market research? The fact WWE's market research is all kept so minor and so utterly padded is part of why there's no hope for them but you can do large scale market research real easily. My last job was at a market research firm and you'd be amazed how weirdly specific some of our clients ended up being. I think it was Game of Thrones--if not, then some huge HBO show--where network people and showrunners admitted they looked at next-day numbers on major piracy sites to help gauge the success of the show. Obviously those aren't paying customers watching live, but if you really want to expand your scope and assess your audience, that's an option you have available to you if you want to count it. Realistically, no one company is ever going to do what Nielsen does. They have decades and decades of establishment from back when the industry was different and there weren't a million Silicon Valley startups promising their algorithms were the best. But in the field of a million firms on tap to do those things, there are numbers out there, it's just that they're all kept internally. We talk about these outdated methods of getting numbers because they're the ones available to us, and because the many alternatives that get used are not. They're flawed, but the whole entertainment industry isn't gonna start dumping private company data on the public just to win online slapfights. And these numbers privilege younger views because advertisers favour them, and that's shit I remember learning in seventh grade during a vague 'consumer awareness stuff' unit. It's industry-wide, not something that's being dwelled on by a bunch of random wrestling fans trying to play numbers to make a win. Valid or not, it's something coming in from the top down; Showbuzz Daily doesn't sort by demo because they secretly despise Vince and want to make him look worse.
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Post by flowercity on Oct 19, 2021 7:06:06 GMT -5
To put a long story short, that's not the case. Like most things, it's all about intention and what audience you're aiming for. If you're trying to aim a show at 18-49, you likely would want those numbers to be higher and hit the targets you have for it. If it's not where it should be, you have to make changes to try and get that audience. It's why Raw has been getting renewals from USA for years because of its consistent demos and why, say, NCIS has been on the air for what feels like the lifetime of Television history because it gets the audience it has, the much older crowds. I get that, and AEW should be proud of what it's achieved here but there's this sense that they've won even though WWE's numbers are much higher, but they're only 50+ so who cares. Those viewers matter too. Not to advertisers they don’t.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Oct 19, 2021 7:12:53 GMT -5
WWE has already lost. Three years ago they had a virtual monopoly on the business, were trying to "expand" internationally with their NXT brand, control most of the library of pro wrestling's history, and went on a spending spree where they tried to sign anyone with a pulse; and now they are losing the 18-49 demo to a company that didn't even exist. People can spin it anyway they want to, on both sides, but the fact that this is even a thing is a huge failure on WWE's part.
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khali
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Post by khali on Oct 19, 2021 7:47:49 GMT -5
One thing people don’t seem to realize is that the reason Raw is a top ten show on cable is because of the ranking by 18-49 demographic. If you wanted everything to go by total viewers instead, suddenly your top 20 in cable becomes sports, Fox News and Rachel Maddow. On last Monday, the 11am hour of Fox News did more viewers than Raw. That show was ranked 41st because they got almost nothing in 18-49.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 19, 2021 7:56:07 GMT -5
Just random thoughts on the overall thing here... I've been having and didn't post but what the hell its 3:30am and I can't sleep it's the perfect time to make a post >_> Let my preface this by saying that I enjoy AEW... I have not really been watching Smackdown or any of the WWE product regularly... and as I stated earlier I watched neither show on Friday and instead saw Danhausen at Create-a-pro in New York... That said... most of what's been posted revolving around the ratings and stuff does feel like goal post moving. The first came out and AEW lost in the overall ratings, and tied for most of the regular demos... the they went slice by slice over the overrun getting similar results except for like one Demographic and called it a victory, something that like... they've never really done before ever? if Tony didn't do the whole "DECLARE VICTORY!" early thing we likely wouldn't have this now either... Hell just from the regular ratings there was good news and should have been enough to just count this week as a positive as they gained viewers, but it's not really enough to justify calling a VICTORY. and let's be real here if the shoe was on the other foot and Vince publicly declared victory a full week before a show and then did the same thing a lot of people would rightfully be calling it out for being petty bullshit. So again It was absolutely good week for Rampage but in my opinion the whole specifics to justify the idea that it was actually a victory seems like they're more trying to convince people that it was, than it actually being one. I do get what you're saying... but winning the key demo by 15% in the head to head when WWE stacked the show in that commercial free half hour... FS1 or not is a huge deal for AEW when Rampage is considered to be in a death slot for cable. They have every right imo to declare a victory here when WWE were the ones who picked the battle in the first place just to try and gain any ounce of moral victory over AEW and give themselves some peace of mind that they're easily squashable. They're not. They don't need to convince anyone of the victory who gets what ratings mean for advertisers and networks. I know it's a small sample size and WWE wasn't on FOX... but the optics that AEW in their own death slot time beat WWE's best shots on a channel that still is heavily advertised and pushed out there as FS1 is... is something that might be taken notice of. Especially considering it was AEW's second show to boot. And considering WWE leaked the fast nationals without the Key Demos to try and push a narrative that they won overall until the demos dropped? Vince DID do the same thing... you can say Khan is petty for declaring victory... but WWE have been way pettier in this imo considering they keep trying to start the fight and keep getting egg on their faces.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2021 8:59:10 GMT -5
Just random thoughts on the overall thing here... I've been having and didn't post but what the hell its 3:30am and I can't sleep it's the perfect time to make a post >_> Let my preface this by saying that I enjoy AEW... I have not really been watching Smackdown or any of the WWE product regularly... and as I stated earlier I watched neither show on Friday and instead saw Danhausen at Create-a-pro in New York... That said... most of what's been posted revolving around the ratings and stuff does feel like goal post moving. The first came out and AEW lost in the overall ratings, and tied for most of the regular demos... the they went slice by slice over the overrun getting similar results except for like one Demographic and called it a victory, something that like... they've never really done before ever? if Tony didn't do the whole "DECLARE VICTORY!" early thing we likely wouldn't have this now either... Hell just from the regular ratings there was good news and should have been enough to just count this week as a positive as they gained viewers, but it's not really enough to justify calling a VICTORY. and let's be real here if the shoe was on the other foot and Vince publicly declared victory a full week before a show and then did the same thing a lot of people would rightfully be calling it out for being petty bullshit. So again It was absolutely good week for Rampage but in my opinion the whole specifics to justify the idea that it was actually a victory seems like they're more trying to convince people that it was, than it actually being one. I do get what you're saying... but winning the key demo by 15% in the head to head when WWE stacked the show in that commercial free half hour... FS1 or not is a huge deal for AEW when Rampage is considered to be in a death slot for cable. They have every right imo to declare a victory here when WWE were the ones who picked the battle in the first place just to try and gain any ounce of moral victory over AEW and give themselves some peace of mind that they're easily squashable. They're not. They don't need to convince anyone of the victory who gets what ratings mean for advertisers and networks. I know it's a small sample size and WWE wasn't on FOX... but the optics that AEW in their own death slot time beat WWE's best shots on a channel that still is heavily advertised and pushed out there as FS1 is... is something that might be taken notice of. Especially considering it was AEW's second show to boot. And considering WWE leaked the fast nationals without the Key Demos to try and push a narrative that they won overall until the demos dropped? Vince DID do the same thing... you can say Khan is petty for declaring victory... but WWE have been way pettier in this imo considering they keep trying to start the fight and keep getting egg on their faces. That's pretty much my thought, too. When it comes to live television ratings, I don't think it's as much goalposts being moved as much as it's goalposts conveniently being placed to benefit a narrative. Those numbers can so easily be manipulated and scrutinized that they hardly even mean anything anymore. At the end of the day, WWE is more "popular" than AEW and anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous. I think it's a fair and valid point that WWE has a 30 year headstart and the gap is nowhere near as wide as it probably should be, but WWE is the larger and more "popular" promotion, especially with older people and families. But, in this particular situation, WWE was irrefutably the aggressor. WWE made the decision to counterprogram AEW, and there's really no avoiding that fact. When WWE does that, the 30-minute overlap between the programs does become especially compelling and relevant. And, as much of a buzzword as it is, and as disingenuous as it can feel sometimes, the "demo" is the "rating." So, the fact that Rampage "won" the head-to-head, if nothing else, validates AEW, and leaves WWE with egg on its face. Since its inception, WWE's public position on AEW has been that it's a "pissant company" that is no worry or competition. Yet, WWE's actions paint a different picture. Regardless of how anyone tries to justify it, WWE tried to use NXT to stamp out Dynamite. And they failed. WWE tried to hurt Rampage by throwing a segment with, ostensibly, its two biggest stars at it, and lost. I would prefer that Tony Khan be above it all , but that's exciting stuff! I would have a hard time not rubbing WWE's face in it a little were I in his position.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 19, 2021 9:02:58 GMT -5
I get that, and AEW should be proud of what it's achieved here but there's this sense that they've won even though WWE's numbers are much higher, but they're only 50+ so who cares. Those viewers matter too. Not to advertisers they don’t. I think the way to look at it is that BUSINESS wise, AEW won the demo and so their show was more successful in that sense on Friday. But Smackdown was still the more POPULAR show.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 19, 2021 9:07:02 GMT -5
Also to add, if you’re going to say “Well, the system’s out of date and doesn’t reflect viewership habits in 2021”…I mean…yeah, it doesn’t. Minimum wage doesn’t reflect inflation, this generation is looking to be the first to have less money than their parents, most of them likely to be renting for the rest of their lives rather than going on the housing market etc. The problem is, just like a lot of things, Nielson is so engrained in television ratings, anything to rival it would need a entire massive plan to not only convince people it would be a better system to use but also find a way to deal with Nielson themselves likely lobbying for people to keep theirs. Basically, a Tony Khan for TV ratings tracking. Nielsen is already in the process of revamping their ratings enormously. They will be switching to include an impressions-based ratings system which incorporates all ways in which people consume a show rather than cable only. I believe it’s starting this January.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 19, 2021 9:09:16 GMT -5
and let's be real here if the shoe was on the other foot and Vince publicly declared victory a full week before a show and then did the same thing a lot of people would rightfully be calling it out for being petty bullshit. On the one hand, you’re not wrong. On the other, I’d absolutely advocate for Vince doing this sort of stuff publicly. Why? Because 95% of the time, he’s a coward who hides behind whoever is his favorite that week on Twitter or in interviews to justify different things he does. He’s making all these decisions or approving them at the end of the day, he should fall on his own sword like Khan does. Vince is a 76-year old man that works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don’t think he’s going to be sitting there making declarations on Twitter, as entertaining as that would be.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2021 9:10:09 GMT -5
Also to add, if you’re going to say “Well, the system’s out of date and doesn’t reflect viewership habits in 2021”…I mean…yeah, it doesn’t. Minimum wage doesn’t reflect inflation, this generation is looking to be the first to have less money than their parents, most of them likely to be renting for the rest of their lives rather than going on the housing market etc. The problem is, just like a lot of things, Nielson is so engrained in television ratings, anything to rival it would need a entire massive plan to not only convince people it would be a better system to use but also find a way to deal with Nielson themselves likely lobbying for people to keep theirs. Basically, a Tony Khan for TV ratings tracking. Nielsen is already in the process of revamping their ratings enormously. They will be switching to include an impressions-based ratings system which incorporates all ways in which people consume a show rather than cable only. I believe it’s starting this January. I'm super interested in the effect that that's going to have on pro wrestling ratings. I think that AEW has a bigger streaming and social media footprint than we even suspect.
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Post by eJm on Oct 19, 2021 9:11:06 GMT -5
On the one hand, you’re not wrong. On the other, I’d absolutely advocate for Vince doing this sort of stuff publicly. Why? Because 95% of the time, he’s a coward who hides behind whoever is his favorite that week on Twitter or in interviews to justify different things he does. He’s making all these decisions or approving them at the end of the day, he should fall on his own sword like Khan does. Vince is a 76-year old man that works 20 hours a day, 7 days a week. I don’t think he’s going to be sitting there making declarations on Twitter, as entertaining as that would be. I mean, I didn’t say it has to be Twitter. Roman didn’t say his stuff on Twitter.
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