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Post by Hurbster on Feb 13, 2022 6:36:57 GMT -5
I cannot see any scenario in which Leyla did not sign off on this, just goes to show even aliens can only take so much bs.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Feb 13, 2022 7:38:41 GMT -5
Saying it’s unnecessary and not serious is pretty much saying people shouldn’t feel that way, or at least shouldn’t be posting about it here. I didn't mean it that way, I more meant of all threads to go now six pages, this one is one that really shouldn't have imo. I guess I'm just gobsmacked that this thread of all things got in danger of being locked. I'm not personally trying to undermine people who were personally offended or took the comments to heart, but in reality it's a throwaway line that is in kayfabe to a show, signed off on by two performers. An antagonist trying to gaslight and play sympathy after hurting multiple people, for the babyface to throw it right back on them, something we see in several mediums of fiction, yet it's a problem here when a babyface isn't taking bullshit lying down. It's NEVER been about insulting an orphan, ever imo. It's about Hirsch trying to use that to deflect blame, like a heel would do, and Statlander essentially calling her out on it. Was it extreme? Yes. But this woman has tried to injure her outside the confines of a ring and also tried to hurt her friends repeatedly and wanted to play a sympathy card so... It's as cut and dry as it gets imo, the fact it's snowballed like it has when I made the thread in lighthearted fun makes me regret doing it at all lmfao. I get that you like to defend AEW and I don't entirely disagree with you here, but you're now at the point where you're telling people how they should feel about something. If some people feel it went too far then it isn't cut and dry at all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2022 7:54:26 GMT -5
I didn't mean it that way, I more meant of all threads to go now six pages, this one is one that really shouldn't have imo. I guess I'm just gobsmacked that this thread of all things got in danger of being locked. I'm not personally trying to undermine people who were personally offended or took the comments to heart, but in reality it's a throwaway line that is in kayfabe to a show, signed off on by two performers. An antagonist trying to gaslight and play sympathy after hurting multiple people, for the babyface to throw it right back on them, something we see in several mediums of fiction, yet it's a problem here when a babyface isn't taking bullshit lying down. It's NEVER been about insulting an orphan, ever imo. It's about Hirsch trying to use that to deflect blame, like a heel would do, and Statlander essentially calling her out on it. Was it extreme? Yes. But this woman has tried to injure her outside the confines of a ring and also tried to hurt her friends repeatedly and wanted to play a sympathy card so... It's as cut and dry as it gets imo, the fact it's snowballed like it has when I made the thread in lighthearted fun makes me regret doing it at all lmfao. I get that you like to defend AEW and I don't entirely disagree with you here, but you're now at the point where you're telling people how they should feel about something. If some people feel it went too far then it isn't cut and dry at all. Ding ding. I didn't mind the line, I quite liked it. But I can totally see how some people wouldn't like the line and that's completely valid. There's a certain point where you have to stop defending and accept that some people don't like it and that's ok. That's said there are also certainly people that like to poke these people to get the reaction and then play the 'OH WHY ARE YOU BEING MEAN TO ME' card.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 13, 2022 8:25:42 GMT -5
You’re just taking it to the complete opposite extreme. She could just say that being adopted doesn’t justify what you did to me, and then cut a fiery promo about how you’re going to kick her ass. I preferred her response lol Sure, but I’m guessing you’re not the audience that would be affected/offended by the line.
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Convoy
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Post by Convoy on Feb 13, 2022 11:04:41 GMT -5
FWIW I actually was adopted and thought the line was great. It got an audible response from me watching live, and I’m all for Stat getting nasty with words when her opponent got nasty with a chair the week prior. Sticks and stones, etc.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 13, 2022 11:51:12 GMT -5
I preferred her response lol Sure, but I’m guessing you’re not the audience that would be affected/offended by the line. No, because the other response is boring and generic sounding. I like faces to have some teeth because it's realistic to me. No matter how nice you are, sometimes someone pushes a button and you gotta go for the low blow. I'm one of the rare people that enjoyed it when Cena would get a bit dickish, because it made him seem more human. Real people aren't comic book characters from the 50s. Leyla brought up something entirely unrelated and tried to use it to justify her behaviour. So it got thrown in her face by someone tired of her shit. Obviously adoption is a real thing and must be extremely sad to through, but it's one of those things where you've gotta realize it's a fictional feud that everyone agreed to and she wasn't saying f*** people that grew up in orphanages.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Feb 13, 2022 12:38:40 GMT -5
Sounds like we're in agreement that Statlander needs to get away from the last remnants of her stupid alien stuff (i.e., stuff from 1950s comic books), then.
This is my issue with it--she and AEW want to have it both ways. She wants to do "LOL SO WACKY!" stuff with the booping and the goofy hometown, but also be an edgelord badass on the mic.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Feb 13, 2022 12:49:23 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other but I do think dismissing the opinions of people who take issue with it with, "Well, but the majority liked it!" is pretty goddamn gross.
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Feb 13, 2022 12:57:58 GMT -5
There are two main types of babyfaces - both of which I can like, if they're written consistently. There's the dignified babyface, the one standing above backhanded tactics, who's showing empathy for their opponents, who isn't using opportunities to stoop just as low. That's usually the underdog babyface type, having to overcome many obstacles, suffering in the process, but being rewarded by success and sympathy. The most blatant example I can think of this is Sara Crewe from A Little Princess. She loses everything, gets humiliated again and again in the process, but due to keeping her almost royal grace, she manages to survive, have small victories, and when, in the end, she has the chance to attack those who did her wrong, she just smiled and waved goodbye. Many people don't like that type of reaction, but it totally fits her character and is a great way to show that there is an alternative to clapping back in order to win. The other type has solid base morals, but is willing and able to play just as dirty as the heels. That's your tweeners, antiheroes, heels turned babyfaces and often your average good-hearted human being. They don't just take and transform their suffering, but try to reflect it. Examples for this are Anne of Green Gables and Jo March from Little Women. Both clear babyfaces, having great heads in their shoulders and hearts in their chests, but they tend to react viscious to being done wrong. When Anne was called Carrot by a classmate, she smashed his chalkboard over his head. A nice moment, perfectly fitting her character. She doesn't take anything and shows it. Now, Sara would be written bad pretty objectively bad if she suddenly had acted like Anne. If a reaction feels out of character based on everything we could learn about them so far, it's bad writing. Even if some or many people love that out of character reaction. The writer needs to acknoledges that their characters act differently for a moment, maybe because they try to deviate from their usual path. They can't just do it without feeling inconsistent. Still trying to figure out how it's out of character for Statlander anyway, she hasn't gotten a ton of promos to tell me if this is supposed to be bad writing or out of character, this is the first time she's been able to show real fire in promos, and up to this point in terms of body language, she's always kind of been sassy or take no prisoners So yeah it would be out of character for someone who has cut multiple promos of virtue to go to a deep well... but nowhere has Statlander told me this is contradictory to her as a character or her behavior. There's much AEW content that I miss, but I got the impression that Statlander is the always dignified type of babyface. Wrestling of course is storytelling beyond spoken words, so promos aren't necessary to shape a viewer's perception of how a character would or wouldn't act. For what it's worth: As a fan getting immersed I'm disappointed in Statlander's response, because I thought that is not who/how she is.
It was more of a general writeup anyway.
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Feb 13, 2022 13:01:28 GMT -5
There are two main types of babyfaces - both of which I can like, if they're written consistently. There's the dignified babyface, the one standing above backhanded tactics, who's showing empathy for their opponents, who isn't using opportunities to stoop just as low. That's usually the underdog babyface type, having to overcome many obstacles, suffering in the process, but being rewarded by success and sympathy. The most blatant example I can think of this is Sara Crewe from A Little Princess. She loses everything, gets humiliated again and again in the process, but due to keeping her almost royal grace, she manages to survive, have small victories, and when, in the end, she has the chance to attack those who did her wrong, she just smiled and waved goodbye. Many people don't like that type of reaction, but it totally fits her character and is a great way to show that there is an alternative to clapping back in order to win. The other type has solid base morals, but is willing and able to play just as dirty as the heels. That's your tweeners, antiheroes, heels turned babyfaces and often your average good-hearted human being. They don't just take and transform their suffering, but try to reflect it. Examples for this are Anne of Green Gables and Jo March from Little Women. Both clear babyfaces, having great heads in their shoulders and hearts in their chests, but they tend to react viscious to being done wrong. When Anne was called Carrot by a classmate, she smashed his chalkboard over his head. A nice moment, perfectly fitting her character. She doesn't take anything and shows it. Now, Sara would be written bad pretty objectively bad if she suddenly had acted like Anne. If a reaction feels out of character based on everything we could learn about them so far, it's bad writing. Even if some or many people love that out of character reaction. The writer needs to acknoledges that their characters act differently for a moment, maybe because they try to deviate from their usual path. They can't just do it without feeling inconsistent. Nooo, no, there’s not just two types of babyfaces. Why do people think this? You just listed four. What do you mean by "people"? I don't know them and want to see where they are coming from. I didn't say there are just two types of babyfaces and wether there're more than two main types (at least when it comes to reacting to attacks and humiliation by heels) may well be argued.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 13, 2022 13:04:08 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other but I do think dismissing the opinions of people who take issue with it with, "Well, but the majority liked it!" is pretty goddamn gross. That I agree with. That's never an argument.
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petef3
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Post by petef3 on Feb 13, 2022 13:06:54 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other but I do think dismissing the opinions of people who take issue with it with, "Well, but the majority liked it!" is pretty goddamn gross. I've been blasting music by the Weakerthans all day, watched some Youtube channels that are getting about 2,000 views a video, and later...er, okay, later on I'm going to a Super Bowl party like the majority of people are doing. But still, I'm never, ever going to evaluate something by what the masses like. I can understand why a wrestling company caters to the masses, and we all should understand why a wrestling promotion is trying to maximize profits, but that doesn't mean I have to call it "good."
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 13, 2022 14:01:35 GMT -5
Nooo, no, there’s not just two types of babyfaces. Why do people think this? You just listed four. What do you mean by "people"? I don't know them and want to see where they are coming from. I didn't say there are just two types of babyfaces and wether there're more than two main types (at least when it comes to reacting to attacks and humiliation by heels) may well be argued. Sorry if I came off kind of forceful. I just think it’s easy to show range as a babyface more than other fans claim. I’ll use NJPW as an example, they’ve got a wide variety in the temperament of their good guys. Naito has a tweener lean but he’s sympathetic enough to be booked against top heels. Tanahashi’s more traditional. Okada is less tweenerish than Naito usually but has enough of an arrogant side to where a purer face like Ibushi can get face pops against him, while Ibushi also has a darker zone he can tap into. “New Japan Dad” types like Tenzan can act as veteran mentor faces with talent like Wato. They also have nutty faces like Yano who cheat like crazy but it’s fun to watch them irritate the heels. I think Statlander can fall into the Okada or Tanahashi-ish range where she can be a sympathetic face much of the time but also come off as someone you wouldn’t want to cross, or engage in a war of words with. Like, she’s a weirdo alien, but she’s no punk. (No offense to Punk himself) And to be real, as great of a story A Little Princess is, I’m not sure if I would follow that approach if I was booking a wrestling show. Personally, I think every babyface should clap back and show some rage at some point. So many classic good guys had their firey moments, like Backlund going wild during his comebacks, yelling “come on , you son of a bitch” at his opponent, screaming like he lost a beloved son when Superstar Graham smashed his title belt. Sting was an upstanding guy who would still throw hands in a segment when he needed to. And I’ll also second enjoying when Cena would get a little arrogant and nasty, because his rival 95% of the time had done or said something much worse.
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Post by 06vwgti on Feb 13, 2022 14:05:25 GMT -5
And I’ll also second enjoying when Cena would get a little arrogant and nasty, because his rival 95% of the time had done or said something much worse. Except that time Cena screwed Rey Mysterio is that 5%
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 13, 2022 14:23:13 GMT -5
And I’ll also second enjoying when Cena would get a little arrogant and nasty, because his rival 95% of the time had done or said something much worse. Except that time Cena screwed Rey Mysterio is that 5% That doesn’t discount my point, because you’re talking about a face vs. face match that was booked by HHH, if I recall. Cena wasn’t in the wrong for still wanting a shot after Rey fought earlier, certainly not in a company where the rematch clause is a long established trope. Both characters are still more sympathetic than Del Rio (in kayfabe, not talking about the man’s IRL issues). If, say, Riho has one of the titles and beats Velvet in a heated seven minute match and she’s scheduled to face Statlander later and Kris wins a close match, that doesn’t make Kris a heel. All it would mean is that she’s competitive. There’s no reason for the audience to assume “Kris wants easy pickings” unless her character was written to actually say that.
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Post by Mr Mario Mario on Feb 13, 2022 16:14:07 GMT -5
Honestly I liked it and went “Damn I guess Kris is a cold-blooded alien”
But if someone adopted or not didn’t like it for whatever reason then that’s fair enough and I get that too
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 13, 2022 16:27:22 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on this one way or the other but I do think dismissing the opinions of people who take issue with it with, "Well, but the majority liked it!" is pretty goddamn gross. I hope that's not how I personally was coming off, I was more putting down the idea was inherently bad, because the opinion was clearly divisive amongst the thread as a whole and some people didn't like it and some people did Was more saying that what's a good idea and what's a bad idea can be a very subjective thing, it's not a hand waving tactic to dismiss an opinion however, nor does it automatically make someone who hates a segment love it by proxy and never has, or should.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 13, 2022 16:30:25 GMT -5
I didn't mean it that way, I more meant of all threads to go now six pages, this one is one that really shouldn't have imo. I guess I'm just gobsmacked that this thread of all things got in danger of being locked. I'm not personally trying to undermine people who were personally offended or took the comments to heart, but in reality it's a throwaway line that is in kayfabe to a show, signed off on by two performers. An antagonist trying to gaslight and play sympathy after hurting multiple people, for the babyface to throw it right back on them, something we see in several mediums of fiction, yet it's a problem here when a babyface isn't taking bullshit lying down. It's NEVER been about insulting an orphan, ever imo. It's about Hirsch trying to use that to deflect blame, like a heel would do, and Statlander essentially calling her out on it. Was it extreme? Yes. But this woman has tried to injure her outside the confines of a ring and also tried to hurt her friends repeatedly and wanted to play a sympathy card so... It's as cut and dry as it gets imo, the fact it's snowballed like it has when I made the thread in lighthearted fun makes me regret doing it at all lmfao. I get that you like to defend AEW and I don't entirely disagree with you here, but you're now at the point where you're telling people how they should feel about something. If some people feel it went too far then it isn't cut and dry at all. I said I WASN'T trying to do that, and I'm not. People are absolutely free to feel how they are, I just said I was surprised about the turns this thread took over the line in some peoples eyes. I simply gave the view of how I and others saw it, if people didn't like it that's their opinion, I'm not trying to tell them how to feel, I thought in my eyes it was a cut and dry segment and was surprised to see that it just wasn't for some people for some complicated reasons. It is what is is, I'm never gonna tell people how to feel, just give my own thoughts.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Feb 13, 2022 16:48:10 GMT -5
I do think it was a messy line for a face to say. You don't want people to feel sympathetic towards heels, and knowing Hirsch's legit (no pun intended) backstory, plus that line from Statlander, made me feel sympathetic towards Hirsch, despite the shit she's pulled the last few weeks. I'm all for faces showing fire and flinging insults back, but this one seemed misjudged, IMO.
It's not a big deal for me or an angle killer of a line, but I could see why it would be for people with real-life experience of adoption.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 13, 2022 17:05:30 GMT -5
I do think it was a messy line for a face to say. You don't want people to feel sympathetic towards heels, and knowing Hirsch's legit (no pun intended) backstory, plus that line from Statlander, made me feel sympathetic towards Hirsch, despite the shit she's pulled the last few weeks. I'm all for faces showing fire and flinging insults back, but this one seemed misjudged, IMO. It's not a big deal for me or an angle killer of a line, but I could see why it would be for people with real-life experience of adoption. Yeah, I totally understand people having trouble with the particular content of the insult used. My stance is that it’s important for the babyface to always be ready to fight and show passion. Faces shouldn’t be too jerky and they can easily go too far. But I really can’t think of any majorly successful babyface in a promotion who always turned the other cheek- and I’m including big matches along with just the angles- and became a big key draw, because violence and fury is such a key part of the art of wrestling.The one attempt I can think of at a face who tried to be 100% dignified and passive was when Bayley first arrived as the sweet good girl on Raw, and she was soooo much softer than she was in NXT (“Ehhh, I don’t want to hurt anyone.”), and then Alexa Bliss beat her ass with a cane. That actually hurt Bayley for a while until she found her fun heel persona.
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