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Post by Zombie Mod on Jun 26, 2022 16:19:49 GMT -5
I still dont think he should be erased from wrestling history, not because he was an example of a good wrestler but as an example of how serious head trauma that accumulates from wrestling and how it should be monitored and dealt with better (mandatory paid time off immediately following a concussion or head injury and medical testing ie brain scan to see what damage has been done.).
erasing him from history will only lead to something similar happening again in the future.
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ChitownKnight
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Post by ChitownKnight on Jun 26, 2022 16:23:51 GMT -5
Abuse stories would still come out though. Unless, in THAT alternative universe he never abused Nancy? Yeah, I mean let's not kid ourselves here, Benoit was an explosive personality. There were multiple restraining orders that Nancy made against Chris over the years, and it's not as though you can just casually get those filed. Maybe the better timeline would be that WWE sees how toxic the locker room is by 2002 and fires anyone that is abusive towards others. That takes care of Benoit, Eddie, Bradshaw, Holly and maybe even Undertaker. Loyalty doesn't mean anything if you're systematically poisoning the well with how you conduct yourself backstage Was Eddie that bad? I know about the Puder and Angle incidents but he wasn’t toxic like the rest I don’t think
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Heartbreaker
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Post by Heartbreaker on Jun 26, 2022 17:02:03 GMT -5
15 years of bros saying he should be in the HOF cause “hE wAs A gOoD wReStLeR” or thinking he was framed by Kevin Sullivan. Hell, I've seen some people try to claim Ric Flair was involved. …. What?
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Post by Macho Pichu on Jun 26, 2022 17:05:33 GMT -5
I had been out of wrestling for about 2 years at this point. The death of Eddie was the catylist for me deciding not to watch for a while. I remember being in high school, and for whatever reason, the power chord to my computer had been taken from me as some kind of punishment for something I did that I have zero recollection of. I ended up instead keeping up with whatever was going on via the News channel on the Wii because of it. I read every update article and was appalled at every new thing that came up.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Jun 26, 2022 17:06:56 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever done as extreme a 180 on how I viewed a person as Chris Benoit. He was one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. I cried and mourned for his death. Then the truth of his horrible deeds came to light and he became scum of the earth in my eyes. Definitely was my favorite beforehand. His WrestleMania win was the most I’ve ever marked out. It never felt possible. I was such a fan I wrote a short story about wrestling him as a tryout match for WWE in high school Watched the Hard Knocks doc the night the news broke and mourned Then the whole story came out and I don’t know that I ever have felt so betrayed.
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Post by The Rick Jericho on Jun 26, 2022 17:11:36 GMT -5
Abuse stories would still come out though. Unless, in THAT alternative universe he never abused Nancy? Yeah, I mean let's not kid ourselves here, Benoit was an explosive personality. There were multiple restraining orders that Nancy made against Chris over the years, and it's not as though you can just casually get those filed. Maybe the better timeline would be that WWE sees how toxic the locker room is by 2002 and fires anyone that is abusive towards others. That takes care of Benoit, Eddie, Bradshaw, Holly and maybe even Undertaker. Loyalty doesn't mean anything if you're systematically poisoning the well with how you conduct yourself backstage Wow, now there is an alternative universe. No Undertaker after 2002. How many more wrestlers would've been spared from Wrestlers Court.
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john84
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Post by john84 on Jun 26, 2022 17:21:54 GMT -5
Hell, I've seen some people try to claim Ric Flair was involved. …. What? Yep. Seriously, somewhere on YouTube I've seen comments saying that Flair was involved. I think some of them were trying to make out that it was over Nancy but, yeah, I've seen people on the comments section of YouTube trying to say Flair was involved along WITH Sullivan.
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Post by jason1980s on Jun 26, 2022 17:29:38 GMT -5
Eddie caused a lot of problems for Muhammad Hassan because the camel clutch was a Guerrero family original move. I guess Sheik and Slaughter paid their so called dues and were allowed to do it multiple years earlier. LOL. But Hassan was treated badly for not understanding this was all of a sudden a protected move that needed to be OKed with Eddie. We as fans saw what type of man Eddie was, Benoit and Holly with Daniel Puder, not to mention backstage hazing. Benoit caused Miz to dress in a separate room, like a janitor closet until someone, after Benoit killed himself, finally approached him saying the time was up for him to do so.
Fans shouldn't respect these guys. If you had a little bit of training and WWE signed you and you didn't pay those years of so called "dues", you would have been brutalized by Eddie and Chris in ring because it was acceptable.
They gave no respect to so many and they deserve no respect. And as for Chris being of the mind of a dementia patient, how many elderly dementia patients kill someone else? Seriously, how many? It's NOT a common occurrence, like AT ALL!
Verne is always used as a scapegoat to absolve Benoit. Verne was simply a victim of wrestling himself. He was a wrestler and his mind set was that of a wrestler so when he got into a tussle with the other man, he body slammed him. Chris's was a killer plain and simple. He was pure evil, he would victimize and brutalize, emotionally and mentally and physically abuse anyone he could. He doesn't deserve our fandom or respect.
Edit: How about Mick Foley and Terry Funk, with all their chair shots to the head? They have been amazing family men. Two sweet, kind, loving family men. You would never see them killing another. If anyone would have a severe dementia of an 80 year old it would be then.
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Heartbreaker
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Post by Heartbreaker on Jun 26, 2022 17:30:32 GMT -5
Yep. Seriously, somewhere on YouTube I've seen comments saying that Flair was involved. I think some of them were trying to make out that it was over Nancy but, yeah, I've seen people on the comments section of YouTube trying to say Flair was involved along WITH Sullivan. That’s what happens when you read the YouTube comments section.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 26, 2022 17:31:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean let's not kid ourselves here, Benoit was an explosive personality. There were multiple restraining orders that Nancy made against Chris over the years, and it's not as though you can just casually get those filed. Maybe the better timeline would be that WWE sees how toxic the locker room is by 2002 and fires anyone that is abusive towards others. That takes care of Benoit, Eddie, Bradshaw, Holly and maybe even Undertaker. Loyalty doesn't mean anything if you're systematically poisoning the well with how you conduct yourself backstage Was Eddie that bad? I know about the Puder and Angle incidents but he wasn’t toxic like the rest I don’t think From what I understand Eddie really kept to himself but he always there if you needed him, especially with religion. Eddie was very religious
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 26, 2022 17:33:13 GMT -5
Eddie caused a lot of problems for Muhammad Hassan because the camel clutch was a Guerrero family original move. I guess Sheik and Slaughter paid their so called dues and were allowed to do it multiple years earlier. LOL. But Hassan was treated badly for not understanding this was all of a sudden a protected move that needed to be OKed with Eddie. We as fans saw what type of man Eddie was, Benoit and Holly with Daniel Puder, not to mention backstage hazing. Benoit caused Miz to dress in a separate room, like a janitor closet until someone, after Benoit killed himself, finally approached him saying the time was up for him to do so. Fans shouldn't respect these guys. If you had a little bit of training and WWE signed you and you didn't pay those years of so called "dues", you would have been brutalized by Eddie and Chris in ring because it was acceptable. They gave no respect to so many and they deserve no respect. And as for Chris being of the mind of a dementia patient, how many elderly dementia patients kill someone else? Seriously, how many? It's NOT a common occurrence, like AT ALL! Verne is always used as a scapegoat to absolve Benoit. Verne was simply a victim of wrestling himself. He was a wrestler and his mind set was that of a wrestler so when he got into a tussle with the other man, he body slammed him. Chris's was a killer plain and simple. He was pure evil, he would victimize and brutalize, emotionally and mentally and physically abuse anyone he could. He doesn't deserve our fandom or respect. I forgot about that incident with Eddie. A lot of the wrestlers at the time seem to be just a bunch of dicks TBH sans guys like Rick Rude and Bret. Benoit was a ticking time bomb and was gonna explode no matter what. So yeah I agree 100 percent with what you said
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john84
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Post by john84 on Jun 26, 2022 17:35:29 GMT -5
Yep. Seriously, somewhere on YouTube I've seen comments saying that Flair was involved. I think some of them were trying to make out that it was over Nancy but, yeah, I've seen people on the comments section of YouTube trying to say Flair was involved along WITH Sullivan. That’s what happens when you read the YouTube comments section. Yep. I only read them in case someone posts something genuinely funny or a genuinely good point or something. Must admit I was NOT expecting that conspiracy theory to pop up, there were the usual ones about Sullivan of course. Still not as crazy as the video I saw where the poster of the video was talking about how some people were claiming that the U.S. were nuking Jupiter to try and turn it into a Sun
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Post by jason1980s on Jun 26, 2022 17:37:35 GMT -5
I forgot about that incident with Eddie. A lot of the wrestlers at the time seem to be just a bunch of dicks TBH sans guys like Rick Rude and Bret. Benoit was a ticking time bomb and was gonna explode no matter what. So yeah I agree 100 percent with what you said I feel like that was probably the worst time period with guys like Benoit, Eddie, Bradshaw, Holly all while under the watchful eye of the so called "locker room leader" Undertaker who knowingly allowed the BS to go on. We as fans need to put ourselves in the other wrestlers shoes. If we didn't pay those "dues" all those guys would have done the same to us as they would to the other wrestlers. The fact that Howard Finkel was put on trial in "wrestler's court" and brought to tears, shows what type of "men" the others are.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jun 26, 2022 18:12:01 GMT -5
I haven't shared this on the board, but my grandfather died in the hospital after a fall the same day that the story broke. This was still fairly early in social media days (MySpace era and Facebook had *just* opened up to high schoolers within the past month) so nobody outside those of us in the family who were there knew. This was also pre-Smart phone and texts were limited to a certain number of characters across a green & black or white & black screen (and only the higher end ones that could take/send video and photo came out the previous summer). As he was laying in the hospital bed, I began to feel a buzz from a series of texts. When I recognized a buzz was a ring, I stepped outside to answer the phone and it was a buddy of mine calling to offer condolences re: Benoit. He was the first I told about my Grandfather. We stayed a few more hours and the hospital said, as my grandfather laid there unconscious, he was going to make it through the night. My dad gave me a ride to my Mom's for a few hours, and I ordered a stuffed crust pepperoni pizza (no idea why i remember this so vividly) and watched the Benoit Tribute Raw. It was a big of a relief to be deeply sad about something else for a bit, and right around the time the episode ended, my dad called that the hospital called him and said grandpa died and for us to go to the hospital for some reason I can't remember. We went, my grandfather's body looked like he had his eyes shut and was screaming sitting up, just the most horrifying image of someone who has passed away. I've heard of people looking at peace once they pass on, and this was the exact absolute opposite. Like one final gasp of agony as the soul leaves the body, the organs shut down, the blood pools in the feet and a life expires. I came home that night. I was a lurker on this board (back in the WC days) and signed on that original thread expecting Benoit tributes only to find the frequently updating news that it was being investigated as a homicide. Again, it was a distraction of a different sadness. I did not sleep that night. Thank you for indulging me in reading this. I find it strange how the vibe slowly changed over the years from "The Chris I knew wouldn't have done this" to "...yeah, he kind of always was a piece of shit actually". My best guess would be there was still some lingering fear of speaking ill about him to some of the vets at first. I completely buy that people were willing to cover for him. It's also genuinely very hard to reconcile someone in your life who you've spent significant time with doing something unbelievably heinous. It's the secondary rippling trauma caused by all this. A whole range of guilt from "should I have known / was there something I could have done" to the painful doubt of "am I by association a terrible person without knowing it for how much time I spent with him" to the grieving the more personal loss of one's accomplishments, achievements and previous life from having known someone who would do something so terrible (that last part may sound self centered when you first read it, but it's a very valid and legitimate human response that would and does affect anyone and everyone that close to such an unspeakable tragedy. It becomes the new dividing before-after point in their life) Personally speaking, I found out in 2018 about someone who was a close friend in college and later a frequent musical collaborator and friend was facing multiple allegations of being a serial sexual abuser and rapist. I 100% believe all the accusers and have from reading about it, but it still was incredibly traumatic then and I still get pangs of it now when I come across an old photo that has him, so someone unknowingly brings up a song we did despite my taking them all down shortly after finding out. It's awful he did it, and it's awful that I have/had mutual friends who sided with him despite overwhelming evidence. Finding out other people I thought IO was close with had such different values on a level that is blatantly dangerous still f***s me up from time to time.
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Post by Aceorton on Jun 26, 2022 20:33:36 GMT -5
I still think that while the CTE may have contributed, him being an abusive nightmare outside of that is was what made it happen. Mick Foley's gone through just as much head trauma if not more, and yet he's not a danger to anyone because he's a genuinely pleasant person rather than a bully and abuser. I think the roid rage theory is bullshit and can be very easily disproven. Like you said, someone who just snapped wouldn't exhibit that sort of behavior as he did that weekend. Someone who is f***ed mentally from brain damage, well, I wholeheartedly believe it. He was becoming increasingly paranoid that people were following him or going to hurt his family in the weeks and months prior, to the point where he was taking different routes to the gym and airport. So I can absolutely buy him being mentally disturbed enough to be doing those mundane things with the bodies of his murdered wife and child just sitting in the house rotting. It fits the profile pretty well, to be honest. Mental deterioration exacerbating the extreme personality tendencies he already had. I think the true answer is somewhere in there. Given what we learned later about his physical brain state, I envision it like a pillar candle sitting on a saucer. The flame is his ability to think rationally. As he builds up concussions and brain damage over the years, the candle is slowly melting down, becoming deformed and leaning, with wax streaking down the sides. The flame is starting to flicker as the wax around it liquifies and pools. He's starting to be more aggressive and eccentric, saying crazy shit. Domestic violence starts at home. Restraining orders. The bullying at work become full-blown hazing. He's weird and kind of scary sometimes. Everyone is looking sideways at each other, but because it's the wrestling industry, which has always been full of weirdos and enablers, even his close friends just sort of shrug and look the other way. But that candle is becoming more and more deformed. That flame is struggling not to be washed out by the wax. Then all his friends start dying, including his BEST friend. And then, finally, something with Nancy sets him off, an argument of some kind, and that's it: The side of the candle caves in, wax pours everywhere and the flame goes out. He does the unthinkable. And with no flame, he can't even truly comprehend what he's just done to his wife. All he has is the autopilot instinctive thinking from being a wrestler for 25 years. He staggers around in a haze, bullshitting people about oversleeping and catching planes and trying to make the next show, until the first unthinkable act becomes the springboard for the second one, this time to his son. Now he's fully over the edge into madness and he's sending unhinged texts and placing Bibles all around the house before he kills himself.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Jun 26, 2022 21:46:18 GMT -5
Eddie caused a lot of problems for Muhammad Hassan because the camel clutch was a Guerrero family original move. I guess Sheik and Slaughter paid their so called dues and were allowed to do it multiple years earlier. LOL. But Hassan was treated badly for not understanding this was all of a sudden a protected move that needed to be OKed with Eddie. Yeah, I mean Hassan was basically in a catch 22 no matter what. Honestly, the vets could just be obnoxiously snobbish towards anyone who didn't fully grasp the ins and outs as much as they do. Did Eddie have a right to use the move? Absolutely! Did he need to aggressively cut down Hassan in front of everyone in order to prove his point? Of course not. And if you're Hassan, you just have to take it, because you're trying to fit in, you're trying to do the right things according to the company. Like...anyone with common sense would know how to handle the situation better than these guys did. On top of that, Hassan was encouraged by Kurt Angle to discuss it with Eddie, so even Kurt wasn't aware of the history of the move! Speaking of Kurt, Eddie tried to pick a fight with him over something petty and...yeah not the smartest thing to do. Even Eddie admitted afterward it wasn't.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 27, 2022 6:32:05 GMT -5
I informally thought that it was carbon dioxide poisoning or even a triple murder committed by anybody else. But once I saw the empty arena, I knew something was up.
f*** him. Don’t want to hear any rationale. He could have chosen not to do what he did.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Jun 27, 2022 8:26:41 GMT -5
I remember the thread in here going from sadness to fear to hate (of Benoit) in a span of hours. I think the thread is still in the archives.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Jun 27, 2022 8:37:11 GMT -5
Didn't they examine his brain and concluded that he had the mental capacity of a person in their 80's with Alzheimer's? It was kinda gross that the media just zeroed in on steroids when CTE likely had a lot more to do with it. I don't think he "snapped." And he had a history of domestic abuse against Nancy. But he also wasn't the first nor last person with CTE to commit a violent act against themselves and/or others. Probably triggered because he left the prestigious 4 Horsemen to be demoted to Monday Night Raw as someone suggested on a talk show - forget her name now as I made a point of avoiding her ever since - middle aged blonde woman. On a separate note - I think it was Benoit's Darkside of the Ring episode where Vickie Guerrero mentions he and Nancy would visit Eddie's family home to check in on them after Eddie's passing, but Benoit would go and lie on Eddie's side of the Guerrero marital bed and wail for hours whilst clutching a note he'd written to Eddie. That's just awkward. Was it CTE affecting him way back then? Yet with the passage of time, the event seems so futile. He's tarnished his name, left the families on either side in indescribable pain. If he'd lived, I'm just picturing a divorced 55-yr old Benoit working in AEW as a respected veteran with the only blemish on his name is toxic backstage behaviour and maybe he's stepped up to support Eddie's family in nice things like walking his daughters down the aisle. Nancy Grace.... she is a miserable pimple on the a$$ of life.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jun 27, 2022 11:51:17 GMT -5
If he'd lived, I'm just picturing a divorced 55-yr old Benoit working in AEW as a respected veteran with the only blemish on his name is toxic backstage behaviour and maybe he's stepped up to support Eddie's family in nice things like walking his daughters down the aisle. Beyond the brain damage, Benoit had maybe another year left to live based on the autopsy results; he had an enlarged heart as a result of the longterm steroid use. I admit to being one of those who might have thought of a serial killer on the loose committing familicides. There were several such incidents taking place in and around Atlanta during the spring of 2007, all of them with the cops concluding "murder-suicide". I also admit to being willing, then as now, to drawing a line under the whole sordid mess with a simple "brain damage." I do not have enough knowledge about brains, about the psychological and behavioural impacts of brain injuries, and little information about what Chris and Nancy's relationship might have been like. But I can imagine that brain damage can lead people to do some very bizarre, very unthinkable things, and that _nothing_ is off the table when one talks about brain trauma and CTE. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's impossible. What preceded the murder-suicide was a string of overdoses and premature deaths that stopped, almost dead in its tracks, with that weekend in late June. What we see in the locker rooms today is a far different environment from what existed in the early 2000s. The remaining "locker room leaders" of that time have been exposed for their hazing and their enforcement of a pecking order that worked well among the surly, burly jocks who were only there because there were no other vocational choices for them, but have no place among reasonably intelligent people who chose this profession, who want to do well in it and who can readily walk away when it no longer suits them. I think what hurts the most about Benoit was that he was more one of the latter types and would have utterly loved to practice his craft in such an environment. But, he came up within the former culture, and was worn down by the politicking and the cruelty of a world where few wanted to inhabit and those who did were taught not to show it. To his fans, though, he was free to share that love for the craft. It was because of Benoit that we'd happily bubble-wrap the stars that have followed him into it. And it was because of Benoit that so many of our favourites get to live far longer and happier lives. It's a tragedy in the classic sense of the term - from this horrific loss, this business, this culture, this thing of ours have grown so much and become a genuine source of joy.
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