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Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 16, 2023 10:09:16 GMT -5
Oh, for sure, but I'd say a big chunk of that is the circumstances of what they were given for the pandemic. At one point, it was just Bayley and Sasha for star power, everyone else either wasn't booked, not a big enough name or didn't want to get vaccinated. That's fair. I don't even mind them having to go over, because as you said, lack of star power was a very real component. My issue was *how* they kept doing it, which usually involved a) them calling opponent( or opponents if it were tag situation) losers and then...beating them over and over, or b) them just making their opponent(s) look like complete blithering idiots Completely fair points. Oh, to add to my earlier point, their solution to their problem with talent was to gift wrap a bunch of them to AEW and Impact and then wonder where their women's division went.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Feb 16, 2023 10:10:12 GMT -5
Oh, for sure, but I'd say a big chunk of that is the circumstances of what they were given for the pandemic. At one point, it was just Bayley and Sasha for star power, everyone else either wasn't booked, not a big enough name or didn't want to get vaccinated. Granted they really didn't help that with how the one time Lacey Evans actually got over they immediately had Bayley beat her like 40 times. She never recovered from that, either. I know her having a baby factors in to an extent because they finally had *something* with her/Charlotte/Ric at the time she had to be written off, but she's been aimless going on 3 years now. The real frustrating part of Sasha/Bayley's reign of terror? It resulted in a short feud that absolutely nobody cared about because they had dragged it on in some form for several *years* before paying it off. It was an absolute waste
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,822
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Feb 16, 2023 10:14:39 GMT -5
That's fair. I don't even mind them having to go over, because as you said, lack of star power was a very real component. My issue was *how* they kept doing it, which usually involved a) them calling opponent( or opponents if it were tag situation) losers and then...beating them over and over, or b) them just making their opponent(s) look like complete blithering idiots Completely fair points. Oh, to add to my earlier point, their solution to their problem with talent was to gift wrap a bunch of them to AEW and Impact and then wonder where their women's division went. Because said talent in some cases were expendable because they weren't over because they weren't given anything to do and the fans were given no reason to care about them because they spent years being fed to or ignored in favor of the Horsewomen. It was an ugly circle.
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Post by mistery on Feb 16, 2023 10:21:24 GMT -5
Granted they really didn't help that with how the one time Lacey Evans actually got over they immediately had Bayley beat her like 40 times. She never recovered from that, either. I know her having a baby factors in to an extent because they finally had *something* with her/Charlotte/Ric at the time she had to be written off, but she's been aimless going on 3 years now. The real frustrating part of Sasha/Bayley's reign of terror? It resulted in a short feud that absolutely nobody cared about because they had dragged it on in some form for several *years* before paying it off. It was an absolute waste I mean in the case of Lacey, her momentum died due to a death of a thousand cuts. Mixed booking, awful gimmicks, and the fact that she's kind of a terrible person irl doesn't help matters. See: Dressing her kid up in blackface, the whole processed foods debacle, and accusations of homophobia. If it was just one of those things, she would probably be in a better state right now. But all of those controversies piling up will catch the eye of casual fans as well.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,822
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Feb 16, 2023 10:27:12 GMT -5
She never recovered from that, either. I know her having a baby factors in to an extent because they finally had *something* with her/Charlotte/Ric at the time she had to be written off, but she's been aimless going on 3 years now. The real frustrating part of Sasha/Bayley's reign of terror? It resulted in a short feud that absolutely nobody cared about because they had dragged it on in some form for several *years* before paying it off. It was an absolute waste I mean in the case of Lacey, her momentum died due to a death of a thousand cuts. Mixed booking, awful gimmicks, and the fact that she's kind of a terrible person irl doesn't help matters. See: Dressing her kid up in blackface, the whole processed foods debacle, and accusations of homophobia. If it was just one of those things, she would probably be in a better state right now. But all of those controversies piling up will catch the eye of casual fans as well. True, to an extent. But had she even managed to look respectable in that feud, she comes out of it with somewhere to go. Calling her a huge failure and then having her fail repeatedly is death for anyone. They keep changing it up on her because nothing is working and nothing is working because people haven't been given a reason to invest in her outside of a brief run in early 2020
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Feb 16, 2023 10:30:59 GMT -5
I mean in the case of Lacey, her momentum died due to a death of a thousand cuts. Mixed booking, awful gimmicks, and the fact that she's kind of a terrible person irl doesn't help matters. See: Dressing her kid up in blackface, the whole processed foods debacle, and accusations of homophobia. If it was just one of those things, she would probably be in a better state right now. But all of those controversies piling up will catch the eye of casual fans as well. True, to an extent. But had she even managed to look respectable in that feud, she comes out of it with somewhere to go. Calling her a huge failure and then having her fail repeatedly is death for anyone. They keep changing it up on her because nothing is working and nothing is working because people haven't been given a reason to invest in her outside of a brief run in early 2020 She's Baron Corbin for the women. One thing worked, they wrecked it and as a result, nothing else works but they keep trying with whatever combination of outfit/gimmick they feel she should have this week.
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Post by mistery on Feb 16, 2023 10:32:06 GMT -5
I mean in the case of Lacey, her momentum died due to a death of a thousand cuts. Mixed booking, awful gimmicks, and the fact that she's kind of a terrible person irl doesn't help matters. See: Dressing her kid up in blackface, the whole processed foods debacle, and accusations of homophobia. If it was just one of those things, she would probably be in a better state right now. But all of those controversies piling up will catch the eye of casual fans as well. True, to an extent. But had she even managed to look respectable in that feud, she comes out of it with somewhere to go. Calling her a huge failure and then having her fail repeatedly is death for anyone. They keep changing it up on her because nothing is working and nothing is working because people haven't been given a reason to invest in her outside of a brief run in early 2020 I honestly feel like they soured on her during the Rumble match (against Bayley) that year, because she looked absolutely awful in it, and you could tell Bayley was visibly frustrated with how awful Lacey was. Combine that with her having several really bad matches against Charlotte, and uh yeah. At the end of the day, there needs to be a minimum level of competence in the ring to be a world champion, and Lacey never really displays that.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Feb 16, 2023 10:57:05 GMT -5
I think with a lot of it, it comes down to WWE just needing to accept that so much of the roster had been booked to oblivion or portrayed as jobbers that it's going to take time to build them back up. And really the only way to do 6hst is to let them wrestle and have hood matches While I agree with you, my question is: Does the audience have the patience for people to be built back up? A very fair question. In my experience if ya want someone to get over, just have them go out and show they can go. Doesn't matter if its WWE, AEW, Impact, or New Japan. Like I hate to make this an AEW vs WWE post, but AEW made Toni Storm a pillar in their women's division just by having her come out and wrestle and show she's good. Hell, look at Impact they took someone like Deonna Purazzo who wasn't even used in NXT and made her a legit draw for their brand. Now the other question is which women in the WWE umbrella have the working boots to make that work.
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gl83
Hank Scorpio
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Post by gl83 on Feb 16, 2023 10:57:06 GMT -5
A solo Asuka/Iyo feud is a no-brainer. Been waiting for it since their epic promo battle late last year, really. I mean its a no brainer in any other promotion, but the fact is that WWE really doesn't seem to like the idea of doing Japanese vs Japanese matches, probably because they fear for the promo stuff. There's also the fact that Iyo is absolutely ice cold at the moment, with the cherry on top being her losing in four minutes to Michin for no reason, and constantly getting chumped on by anyone even remotely credible. Don't get me wrong, Iyo has her fair share of wins, but she doesn't feel like a big deal at the moment, and it's mainly because WWE refused to let her go over women when it mattered. Like a good example would be the night after Summerslam, where she could have gone over Bianca and established herself (and Damage CTRL) as an actual huge threat. And Bianca wouldn't have been harmed by it. But instead the match was laid out to where Bianca dominated like 95% of it and never looked in any danger of losing. While Iyo got very little actual sustained offense in, and the little she did get in was pretty much no sold by Bianca. Like mentioned above, the problem is that everyone that isn't a horsewoman (sans Bayley at this point), Bianca, or Ronda is treated as third string at best. Like it would be one thing if the loss to Michin was to set up a future tag title shot or it was a way to build Michin up as a major player on Raw(i.e. Bayley did have to cheat by using the ropes instead of beating her clean the week before). Instead, there’s been no indication that they are going after the tag titles(hell their own feud with Damage Ctrl and tag partnership seems to have been dropped). At a time when Becky needed backup to neutralize Damage Ctrl’s interference, you had 2 people right there. And as far as her possibly being built up.....yeah, no....I think we can rule that out after she got rekt by Piper Nivens in less than 3 minutes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 11:14:10 GMT -5
You are seeing HHH place Mia back where he always had her in NXT.
A strong hand to have and can occasionally get a win but is not gonna be amongst the tippy top tier women , she will be a gate keeper which is fine for her but Styles getting hurt really screwed with her role now because she went from teaming with Candice (which Candice has now moved onto Nikkeh) and then they teased her feuding with Piper and Piper is seemingly being built up to be the first post Mania feud for whoever the Raw womens champion is after she quickly put her aside so that seems pretty much one and done.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Feb 16, 2023 11:47:46 GMT -5
True, to an extent. But had she even managed to look respectable in that feud, she comes out of it with somewhere to go. Calling her a huge failure and then having her fail repeatedly is death for anyone. They keep changing it up on her because nothing is working and nothing is working because people haven't been given a reason to invest in her outside of a brief run in early 2020 She's Baron Corbin for the women. One thing worked, they wrecked it and as a result, nothing else works but they keep trying with whatever combination of outfit/gimmick they feel she should have this week. The Southern Belle-ish thing had potential had they fleshed it out even a little bit. Even her hard luck stuff upon return may have worked had they not spend FOR-EV-ER with the vignettes and then having no clue what her alignment or even what f***ing brand she was on. I am not suggesting she's great, or was ever going to be a star, but she's never had a chance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 13:45:23 GMT -5
They need more women.
I'm tired of watching the same 6 women every week.
Each roster should have at least 20 women. At least.
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Post by sarkerpolseng on Feb 16, 2023 14:22:05 GMT -5
It is in a bit of a valley right now, but NXT has a lot of great women talent that will be called up eventually.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Feb 16, 2023 14:56:38 GMT -5
It is in a bit of a valley right now, but NXT has a lot of great women talent that will be called up eventually. Only thing is will they have enough room for them? They have a tough enough time consistently featuring a lot of the women they have now. Especially on Smackdown. Unless it's someone they are really high on that they want to push hard right away and they are being assigned to Raw it will probably just end up being a waste of time.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Feb 16, 2023 16:19:03 GMT -5
It is in a bit of a valley right now, but NXT has a lot of great women talent that will be called up eventually. Only thing is will they have enough room for them? They have a tough enough time consistently featuring a lot of the women they have now. Especially on Smackdown. Unless it's someone they are really high on that they want to push hard right away and they are being assigned to Raw it will probably just end up being a waste of time. The other issue becomes how will call ups do once they're in a bigger and less controlled environment. But that's not a women only issue it's very much been an issue for NXT to Raw/Smackdown since 2016/2017
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on Feb 27, 2023 23:59:15 GMT -5
Late to the party I admit, but here we are.
So, this is how I would do things with the Women's Division if I were running things. Keep in mind that there are the factors of time constraints (even with a 3 hour Monday show).
1)Combine the Raw and Smackdown Women's titles. Now, I will note this is just going by the current situation with the top titles and the tag titles, but I feel that combining them would focus better on who you want on top, and would potentially open up more variety in the top of the women's scene. Like, after Mania Fatal Four Way between all four Women's Title competitors of WrestleMania this year. Mix and match as best you can. Attitude Era was able to get a 6-Man Hell in a Cell for the WWF title after all, don't see why they couldn't try with the women, especially with potential NXT call-ups.
2)Further solidify a tag division. This is a problem that NXT has too for the women, especially recently breaking up their top heel team, but talk amongst the women in the back and see which ones would be willing to be teams for a bit. Odd couple Candice and Cross, Carmella and Chelsea, Tegan and Natalya just to name a couple. NXT has their teams in Nile/Paxley, Fyre/Dawn, Carter/Chance and their current champions, and with how many ladies are down there in NXT I'm sure more can be worked out for either NXT or main roster.
3)After steps one and two, work out a (or maybe one per brand) middle card women's title, something for ladies to have not related to the top or tags. For a while it almost seemed like Dana Brooke with the 24/7 title was going that direction before Cross binned it. Personally, I'd go for one a more traditional title like the Intercontinental, United States, or NXT North American titles, while the other one I'd potentially make like the old WCW TV title where it's defended on TV more often, but there is the time limit to beat the champion. Just to give the women something different to do than their male counterparts.
It would take time to implement my idea there, but I think after a few weeks or months you could get a good set women's division going that maybe could lend itself to doing another event like Evolution, with these titles in place: -WWE Women's Unified Champion -(Middle Title Name) Women's Champion -Women's TV Champion -Women's Tag
And NXT having its Women's and Women's Tags as well. Only if all of this gets going right would I CONSIDER NXT getting a Women's equivalent to the North American title.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2023 0:13:38 GMT -5
WWE really should just make a Women’s midcard singles title. I think it would make sense more than tag belts at this point. WWE keeps going back to like the same 5 women or so constantly as champions, and they do not care about the women’s tag division clearly.
There’s A LOT of women who could benefit from a Women’s IC Title or whatever you want to call it.
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
Rolled a Seven, Beat the Ads.
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Post by CMWaters on Feb 28, 2023 0:16:57 GMT -5
WWE really should just make a Women’s midcard singles title. I think it would make sense more than tag belts at this point. WWE keeps going back to like the same 5 women or so constantly as champions, and they do not care about the women’s tag division clearly. There’s A LOT of women who could benefit from a Women’s IC Title or whatever you want to call it. I did note in the Raw thread that, if you think about it, WWE and AEW would probably work better if they swapped the Tag Titles and the TBS title (not necessarily current holders). More non-tag women in WWE could get a chance to fight for something with the TBS title, while in AEW especially with the current story with Saraya and Toni Storm vs. everyone Tag Titles give them something to fight for (that and AEW is more group-heavy than WWE anyway).
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Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Feb 28, 2023 0:18:56 GMT -5
WWE really should just make a Women’s midcard singles title. I think it would make sense more than tag belts at this point. WWE keeps going back to like the same 5 women or so constantly as champions, and they do not care about the women’s tag division clearly. There’s A LOT of women who could benefit from a Women’s IC Title or whatever you want to call it. I think it'd help the women's Rumble and Elimination Chambers if they had a midcard title too as it'd likely elevate the world titles higher.
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A Little Doo Doo
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Post by A Little Doo Doo on Mar 1, 2023 3:42:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd just retire the tag titles and give the women a TV title.
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