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Post by eJm on Feb 23, 2023 12:43:36 GMT -5
Ok, unlocking the thread and will clarify some points;
This is not a venting ground about posters or opinions.
This is not an excuse to target people and act like they’re the problem.
If you can’t discuss it here without doing that, talk about it responsibly and like adults in the DMs and settle it there. ProBoards have rules against abuse on DMs.
If I lock this thread again, I am not unlocking it.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Feb 23, 2023 13:22:13 GMT -5
As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion?
The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this:
"PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid.
PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it?
PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason).
PY: That doesn't make him stupid.
PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid.
PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it.
PX: It's stupid."
There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on.
We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal.
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Feb 23, 2023 13:29:54 GMT -5
As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion? The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this: "PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid. PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it? PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason). PY: That doesn't make him stupid. PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid. PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it. PX: It's stupid." There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on. We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal. Yup, and 99% of the time that’s how it is. It seems a lot of the time, people don’t like to just take someone else’s opinion and move on, they want a full explanation for it. No one’s owed an explanation for an opinion, no matter how off base it may seem. Not to mention, you’re most likely not gonna change the other person’s mind. I try to post with that in mind. I give my opinion, and if someone replies or quotes me giving a different opinion, I read it and move on. There’s no need to engage further if all I’m gonna add is “you’re wrong because…”. I already said my piece, no more to say.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 23, 2023 14:03:42 GMT -5
As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion? The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this: "PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid. PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it? PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason). PY: That doesn't make him stupid. PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid. PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it. PX: It's stupid." There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on. We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal. The reality is that we as posters need to moderate ourselves using the block button. It’s a bummer but I think that’s genuinely the way we all move on productively. I don’t use it often because I don’t necessarily want to miss conversations, but it also seems like the easiest way to keep the peace. It’s just easier to move on if a post is hidden.
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Post by King Boo on Feb 23, 2023 14:05:10 GMT -5
As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion? The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this: "PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid. PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it? PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason). PY: That doesn't make him stupid. PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid. PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it. PX: It's stupid." There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on. We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal. This is a really big part of it on the staff's end. It's not that there's a double standard or a hypocrisy, necessarily, so much as the *way* the discourse is being presented. There's also been times where we wind up having conversations where we acknowledge the frustration of someone and why it exists, but they were also the ones that lashed out in ways that *actually* broke the rules. It's human, I get it, but that doesn't make it a non-rule break or problem. We've (staff) gone in circles, with people on each point of view on it, trying to figure out the shades of grey in that black and white situation. From our vantage point, you need to remember (we even do sometimes, that's what our staff discussions are for) that we're not in a position to let those human impulses take over; the best way to ensure that is to stick to rules and guidelines. It doesn't mean an opinion is weighted more than another, it means that something in the presentation of one went too far. Or, maybe, doesn't go as far over the rule line as it does the annoying line. I hope that made sense haha.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 14:13:36 GMT -5
As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion? The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this: "PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid. PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it? PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason). PY: That doesn't make him stupid. PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid. PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it. PX: It's stupid." There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on. We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal. The reality is that we as posters need to moderate ourselves using the block button. It’s a bummer but I think that’s genuinely the way we all move on productively. I don’t use it often because I don’t necessarily want to miss conversations, but it also seems like the easiest way to keep the peace. It’s just easier to move on if a post is hidden. The biggest issue I have found is that it doesn’t work. Due to the archaic nature of how it blocks communication. I have begged publicly and in pm and the quoting itself has stopped but the first comments following 75% of my posts are direct responses from the individuals I have asked to stop. I find that out quickly after others start quoting them. I’ve stressed in Dm/pm that it’s a never ending silly argument that I no longer want to be a part of. This basically negates the block feature and makes it even more frustrating when you try to reach out to mods to get more clarification and find out that your blocked from doing so. Not a one reached out to me regarding my post in the ask a mod thread yet the backhanded comments continue. My public outbursts regarding some of the perceived hypocrisy has been ridiculous but they never happened before this became a common issue. I am no longer responding to anyone on my block list and I hope this is the last time I ever have to mention it. I think it’s fair to bring light to these situations if a large section has there hands up confused. No one needs to be forced out we just need to actually work on ignoring what we don’t like or can’t change and believe me that goes for me too.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 14:33:00 GMT -5
There's some good insights brought forward; I think some people want to raise some really salient points in a constructive manner and this isn't the easiest format to do it in. Thanks mod team for letting the conversation continue, and OP for initiating the post. As a mod I want to do better but I run into a problem mentioned earlier: how do moderate discussion? The problem is what is discussion in this situation. Too often it looks like this: "PX: That segment sucked and TK is stupid. PY: I thought it was fine and that stuff usually draws so how is he stupid for booking it? PX: It was stupid because it was (objective reason). PY: That doesn't make him stupid. PX: If he'd just done 1, 2, 3 it'd be fine but he didn't do it's stupid. PY: He's not stupid, you just didn't like it. PX: It's stupid." There's is nothing rule breaky there but it sends everything down a shit path. Nothing bad but later we get "Leave me alone and don't talk to me" followed by people being called hypocrites and chased through threads. People explaining themselves over and over again and so on. We face a rough challenges in that. People want others banned because they are annoying and we deny that, that start acting like asses and come close to or do get banned for that and we take the heat for coddling the person they didn't like. It's a f***ed deal. This is a really big part of it on the staff's end. It's not that there's a double standard or a hypocrisy, necessarily, so much as the *way* the discourse is being presented. There's also been times where we wind up having conversations where we acknowledge the frustration of someone and why it exists, but they were also the ones that lashed out in ways that *actually* broke the rules. It's human, I get it, but that doesn't make it a non-rule break or problem. We've (staff) gone in circles, with people on each point of view on it, trying to figure out the shades of grey in that black and white situation. From our vantage point, you need to remember (we even do sometimes, that's what our staff discussions are for) that we're not in a position to let those human impulses take over; the best way to ensure that is to stick to rules and guidelines. It doesn't mean an opinion is weighted more than another, it means that something in the presentation of one went too far. Or, maybe, doesn't go as far over the rule line as it does the annoying line. I hope that made sense haha. I would suggest that you guys give yourselves more tools in your toolkit. One of my favorite classes I ever took had a wonderful instructor who enforced a policy of "step in, step out" to keep people from steering a conversation and also to give other people a chance to speak. On some forums I was on in the 00s, we had similar rules that forbade "double posting" or just generally limiting how often anybody could post in some particular threads. Clearly for television/pay-per-view threads that might not be the best idea, but maybe something to consider elsewhere? The reality is that thread derailment is one thing, but then thread domination is another. It eventually turns into board domination as well and that's why a lot of us (as OP and King Devitt refer to) are infrequent AEW posters. Unfortunately the block/notification functions for proboards are also just very clunky and feel incomplete, but they also don't lend themselves well to the discussion board format.
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Post by 06vwgti on Feb 23, 2023 14:35:59 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to move the forum software to something like xenforo where it does a good job with the block function and hides any quoted posts too.
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Post by RedSmile on Feb 23, 2023 14:44:36 GMT -5
I am someone who doesn't post much anymore, because I have found other places to talk wrestling, but I will delurk and state that the biggest, ongoing criticsm that I have of these forums over the last several years, is that there is a severe immaturity problem here.
It is incredibly exhausting to have to read, let alone participate, in attempts at discussion that are immediately derailed by someone trying to force some stupid board joke or hijacked by someone else who insists on being overly sensative or precious about something relatively benign, and they simply can't let shit go. There are just way too many people here that smother and dictate discussion because they don't know how to log off, and they always insist on having a take. It's pro-wrestling, not everything needs a take, and not everything needs a daily, never-ending discussion to the point that it gets run into the ground.
This shit largely isn't 'toxic'. This stuff isn't important enough to be 'toxic'. It's simply immature and annoying. And honestly, there's better places to talk wrestling.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 14:45:50 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to move the forum software to something like xenforo where it does a good job with the block function and hides any quoted posts too. Unfortunately an overhaul like that would not only require unpaid work to move but we would then need to maintain server and a host of additional fees. I adore this place and have since well before the Crap was flushed but it's never been designed to generate income (The main page has felt disconnected from the board since the switch) and it would almost have too for us to migrate. That is just my IT brain firing off.
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Post by King Boo on Feb 23, 2023 15:08:29 GMT -5
There's some good insights brought forward; I think some people want to raise some really salient points in a constructive manner and this isn't the easiest format to do it in. Thanks mod team for letting the conversation continue, and OP for initiating the post. This is a really big part of it on the staff's end. It's not that there's a double standard or a hypocrisy, necessarily, so much as the *way* the discourse is being presented. There's also been times where we wind up having conversations where we acknowledge the frustration of someone and why it exists, but they were also the ones that lashed out in ways that *actually* broke the rules. It's human, I get it, but that doesn't make it a non-rule break or problem. We've (staff) gone in circles, with people on each point of view on it, trying to figure out the shades of grey in that black and white situation. From our vantage point, you need to remember (we even do sometimes, that's what our staff discussions are for) that we're not in a position to let those human impulses take over; the best way to ensure that is to stick to rules and guidelines. It doesn't mean an opinion is weighted more than another, it means that something in the presentation of one went too far. Or, maybe, doesn't go as far over the rule line as it does the annoying line. I hope that made sense haha. I would suggest that you guys give yourselves more tools in your toolkit. One of my favorite classes I ever took had a wonderful instructor who enforced a policy of "step in, step out" to keep people from steering a conversation and also to give other people a chance to speak. On some forums I was on in the 00s, we had similar rules that forbade "double posting" or just generally limiting how often anybody could post in some particular threads. Clearly for television/pay-per-view threads that might not be the best idea, but maybe something to consider elsewhere? The reality is that thread derailment is one thing, but then thread domination is another. It eventually turns into board domination as well and that's why a lot of us (as OP and King Devitt refer to) are infrequent AEW posters. Unfortunately the block/notification functions for proboards are also just very clunky and feel incomplete, but they also don't lend themselves well to the discussion board format. I don't want to derail the point of the thread, as I think it's a good one. I *will* say, however, that what you're asking, while sensible and understandable, has other things to consider outside of just adding a new tool or two. We do spitball ideas, but it's not just one teacher dealing with 30 students all in one room. So, there's a lot of moving parts to factor in. I will say that it shouldn't always come down to staff adding more and more rules to follow and enforce. Some of that onus needs to come on the posters, since by and large, you're not children. I agree that the block function is not ideal in terms of quoted posts and such, but that's out of our hands. It's still very much so an option, though, and one I'd advocate people using. It's not a total solution, but it helps temper what riles you up, or how much. Lastly, I repeatedly read people saying they constantly reach out to mods and get no response or whathaveyou. Not that I'm asking for a headache or agita, but I can count on one, not even full, hand the amount of times I've been reached out to by a poster. I like to think I'm fair and friendly, but I've almost never been approached. I'm not saying I'm the key to an immediate solution, but I also know that I can't talk to someone about something if I don't know they have a gripe. I have my own world to deal with, but I would always at least try to talk things out. Things aren't thought of from our perspective, and why should they be? You aren't in that position, it makes sense you wouldn't/couldn't, so I hope I help shed light on where we may be coming from at times.
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clifford
King Koopa
Shingo Takagi stan
Posts: 10,683
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Post by clifford on Feb 23, 2023 16:39:34 GMT -5
We should form a marching band but instead of playing boring marching band songs we play cool songs like Finger Eleven songs and KISS songs. Slow Chemical, trumpet version. This needs to happen. Holy shit hell yeah dude...omg that would be f***ing awesome lol
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Post by kingoftheindies on Feb 23, 2023 16:45:08 GMT -5
This actually goes to something that happened in the Dynamite thread. JUst know when not to respond. If you know someone is going to trigger you with a comment, walk away, if you feel the comment was antagonizing towards you? walk away but report it to the mods to be reviewed. It's better to walk away than to say something stupid that you will regret.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 19:27:59 GMT -5
The only thing I can do is speak for myself.
I feel like I can't criticize the product without certain individual(s) who shall remain nameless quoting me and telling me that I just "don't get it", or something along those lines, even though I explained why I personally wasn't into it already.
I've just gotten to where if certain people are quoting me, I almost want to run away.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Mar 7, 2023 16:37:52 GMT -5
Given the chaos that enveloped the MJF thread earlier, perhaps it would be a good time to reflect on this thread again?
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 236,212
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 7, 2023 16:44:21 GMT -5
I think assuming everything is some grand work where nothing bad actually ever really happens is something that needs to stop being defaulted to when a drama happens
Sometimes shit just happens and it's not to "Work the smarks" or something...
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Post by Cyno on Mar 7, 2023 17:32:38 GMT -5
Unless you have actual evidence and can back it up, please, for the love of God, stop stating your opinions as inarguable facts. I think that provokes more arguments than anything else.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2023 18:01:00 GMT -5
I’ve posted and deleted what I really wanted to say twice now out of fear of repercussion and that’s frustrating.
I’ve talked to multiple people in private and others have posted in this thread about having the fear to participate because of the continuous actions of a few.
None of us are perfect and 99% of the time our opinions aren’t right but we don’t have to be reminded of it like a Eula on every post.
The mods say they want us to be able to express these worries but only if they align with the opinions of THAT mod. Sorry I know your doing this out of your own time and free will and thank you guys so much for that but please be aware that the messages the team sends regarding a perceived pecking order becomes louder the more times these situations occur and it appears only one side is addressed.
The fact that we have had so many fights and longtime accounts deleted over what equates to nothing but differences in opinions is so disheartening.
90% of the people here probably can’t stand me and i absolutely respect your right to feel that way seeing as I’ve never tried to make friends just share my at times horrible but honest opinion.
I hope for a better year for all of us including those that keep circling the drain like myself.
I am done in this thread as I’ve said all i can and provided no solution because like the mods have said there isn’t an easy one.
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Post by SneakMan on Mar 7, 2023 18:05:33 GMT -5
Unless you have actual evidence and can back it up, please, for the love of God, stop stating your opinions as inarguable facts. I think that provokes more arguments than anything else. This has been a FAN-wide problem for as long as I've been here. It's more noticeable in the AEW section because of how...passionate folks get about The Dub, but I remember getting into debates with folks years ago about this exact thing (I believe it was in relation to Finn Balor's first NXT Title run, if that gives you a timeframe estimate).
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 236,212
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 7, 2023 18:11:35 GMT -5
I think a serious issue some users will have, like with Negan on multiple accounts, is they have to be right. Their take cant be an opinion, it HAS to be correct, they can't have their worldview or what they think, be incorrect, no matter how inconsequential it is.
That doesn't justify getting lambasted to the point they leave the proboard, I didn't see the full argument so I can't speak for how harsh it got on either side by the end, but in some instances, some users don't know when to walk away from a discussion or let something go until they are given their just due, and sometimes that's just completely impossible and it won't end until a mod gets involved
I think we're all a bit guilty of arguments, not letting things go, etc, I know I've done it, in some cases I've regretted dragging on a convo or getting goaded into a further debate, but in some instances, some people are just gonna operate differently and it's simply gonna be how they are and how they interact with others or present their arguments
I think what's important to remember is, no matter what anyone says, your opinions and how you feel won't be altered no matter what anyone else might say about you or the take itself. Discussions are one thing, but I think frustrations just keep boiling over on all sides, as has been said, there's no easy solution, most I can say is I hope we can keep trying to get better as a whole as a group in terms of presenting and responding to opinions and takes in the end. And that no one else feels forced to leave or afraid to post because of how some people here might react or feel.
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