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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 21, 2023 21:59:47 GMT -5
Cornette is such a disappointment to me personally so I'll probably go off on a bit of a tangent here. For years as a casual fan he was one of few people I'd listen to with regards to wrestling, I loved his rants on Raw back in the day, he's extremely knowledgeable, quick witted and engaging to listen to, was also pleasantly surprised to hear in an interview years ago that his political views aligned with mine and that he saw himself as left wing. But I'd only really listened to his stuff on Russo etc and wrestling history, never on current wrestling which I wasn't actively watching and certainly not AEW when it came around as again I'd never really watched properly. In the aftermath of Brawl Out though I listened to his take on it as it was such big news and was surprised by the aggressive stance he took and how unlikeable he and his co-host were. I'd only seen bits and bobs of the Bucks and Kenny, nothing of Hangman and was a huge Punk mark back in the day so wasn't exactly inclined to disagree with him for the sake of it but it definitely took me by surprise, knew he was out of touch because he was 20 odd years ago too but just found it like listening to a totally different person. Looked more into his recent stuff after that and just found absolutely loads of thinly veiled homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia and then pretty much outright racism and nearly all of it directed at AEW guys and girls, egged on by the moron he does his podcast with, pandering to the sort of fans, judging by the content of his comment sections, that I'm pretty sure he once said he'd like to set fire to. Couldn't believe he'd gone so far down the rabbit hole. Was genuinely baffled as to how he could hate something so much so decided to tune in to Grand Slam and haven't looked back since, been watching every week since then which I hadn't done for a wrestling show in over 15 years and watched back virtually every match and show worth watching. Lost someone to listen to and lost all my respect for him in the process but rediscovered my love for wrestling as a result of not buying into his bile. I hope for all the idiots he attracts with his rhetoric that then go and harass people that he also inadvertently creates some new AEW fans off the back of it the way he did with me, cos it's unlikely he's going anywhere and there's not really any other positives that can be gained from the way he chooses to discuss wrestling these days, he's the absolute definition of toxic as are the fans of his that take his vendettas and use them to go and harass people they don't know. Organising 'meetings' to work out how you're going to harass a wrestler is genuinely one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. Speaking from experience being a fan of his in the past doesn't excuse sticking up for him now, the guy has enabled some of the worst calibre of 'fans' imaginable and said some inexcusable things. I feel the same way 100%. I’ve kind of filled the gap that Cornette turning into a somehow worse version of Bubba the Love Sponge left with other podcasts like Lapsed Fan and Foley Is Pod. Thankfully, in this podcasting era there are many, many other options for podcasts focused on the “good old days” of wrestling, so I don’t have to give an out-of-touch racist homophobe my time or money.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 21, 2023 22:02:49 GMT -5
What really stands out to me about the "this isn't because of Jim Cornette" defenses is that it stops entirely with that sentiment. Just the flat phrase "Jim didn't do this", with no pittance of "But he probably still shouldn't say this stuff" or "Him doubling down and saying worse shit is really f***ed up though I wish he wouldn't". Just kinda overlooking any harassment she's taking on and the slander from Cornette's own actual mouth on his web show. Like, is him still running his mouth post-twitter deletion about how Kenny won't let Riho let the house anymore okay because her twitter's already deleted so it can't be extra-deleted, therefore it's cool? Just seems like it's kind of exposing yourself if you're really intent on defending Jim Cornette but can't spare a few keystrokes to even say "Riho doesn't deserve harassment". I don't think there's inherently zero room to say "This is f***ed up but I don't think blaming Cornette specifically is right", but it's very telling where your interests lay if you can only say the last bit. Undeniably racist stuff comes out of the man's mouth and he has directed it at Riho for years. If all you can say is "We don't know that he pulled the trigger" and you ignore his actions entirely because of that, you're telling on yourself and maybe there's a reason people take such a dim view of his fanboys. Yeah, that mask isn't just slipping off. It's getting ripped off Phantom Thief-style.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Mar 21, 2023 22:10:20 GMT -5
Always says Russo and Cornette were two end of the same Horse Shoe, far closer together than they'd love to admit.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 21, 2023 23:30:54 GMT -5
Always says Russo and Cornette were two end of the same Horse Shoe, far closer together than they'd love to admit. Yeah... and as I always said Russo is stuck in 1997 while Corney is stuck in at least 1987 if not earlier...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2023 23:49:53 GMT -5
Cornette is such a disappointment to me personally so I'll probably go off on a bit of a tangent here…. I couldn’t have said every bit of it better, very well said.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,600
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Post by khali on Mar 22, 2023 0:13:51 GMT -5
On the bright side, at least we got to 20 pages before having to encounter the “can you prove it’s his fault???” stuff.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 5:55:22 GMT -5
Just playing devil's advocate here but isn't there a years old stickied post on here saying that threads about cornette would not be tolerated. Or is it just OK when it's a certain point of view? Surely if its OK to talk about how everyone who listens to his podcast is a dick and a scummy piece of shit, said scummy pieces of shit like myself should be able to talk to other pieces of shit on here about how we get slandered simply because of what entertainment we choose to consume? I would have assumed the mods would have locked this up as soon as it turned into what it has but here we are. I’m gonna just repeat what I said the last time this whistle got blown. I don't want to speak for the mods, but I hardly think that the ban on Cornette threads was to provide a dogwhistle for his supporters to blow to shut down relevant threads where his rampant douchebaggery is the clear and obvious source of the issue. I think it was more to prevent constant threads being made about his divisive anti-AEW takes that would inevitably devolve into a shitshow. At this point, I would understand if the mods chose to lock this, but I don’t think it’s because anything that anyone has said violated any rules, it’s just because everything that can be said has been. And no one has slandered Cornette listeners. Truth is an absolute defense to defamation. And all that people have done in this thread is literally post direct quotes from Cornette’s podcast. If that makes you uncomfortable, then maybe it is worth reconsidering the kind of person you’re supporting? Nobody has violated any rules simply because the rules only seem to apply to anyone to one side. It's blatant hypocrisy. And yes lots of people have been slandering listeners. Doesn't make me uncomfortable it's just I've seen people run out of here for having valid opinions (outside of this current topic) because it goes against popular echo chamber rhetoric on here, and I'm sick of some people being able to skirt rules and say whatever the hell they want because it's the popular opinion, while others get immediately shut down and threatened with bannings etc.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 6:00:04 GMT -5
No one is talking about Jim Cornette outside of the rhetoric that he has spewed about a very real woman who has deleted socials because of it, and other wrestlers have followed suit because of how bad it was, and he is doubling and tripling down along with Brian Last (Who isn't banned) about the situation and they simply keep attacking anyone that moves and somehow, making them and the situation worse than when it even started The original reason the Cornette ban was issued is because multiple threads were made A DAY about different topics on his podcast, and they all ended the same way, people saying "F*** Cornette" and locked, this isn't random, this is a real, developing incident, that has impacted several people At some point you have to stop trying to be like 'I thought we weren't SUPPOSED to talk about him here?" no we weren't allowed to spam his bullshit here when it didn't lead to actual coherent topic and discussion, and wasn't really anything worthwhile to be discussing, it just went in a circle. This is not that, this has everything to do with Riho being verbally abused and bullied online and at shows, and it's because of Jim Cornette and his Podcast/Cult flunkies making ORGANIZED MEETINGS about the subject while Last says he didn't do anything to instigate it while coming up with an "Award" where he sents said cult to attack random people online who don't agree with them This is a way more serious situation than shit's been in the past, that's why the "To be a devil's advocate" on the Mod rule doesn't work here. No mod has said anything about it, if we were going too far, something would have been said long ago, we're 20 pages in and there's still a lot of relevancy to this situation that keeps happening, and that's in large part to Cornette and Last not letting it go So in conclusion... threads fine, f*** Cornette, f*** his cult and that includes the lurkers who are even on FAN, I'm glad you got to see 20 plus pages of people telling you how much you suck, if they want that to continue here's to another 20 pages, and I really hope Riho's ok. So basically you are just saying f*** me and I suck lots and lots. You my friend Are the posterboy for people on this forum for getting away with shit, all the time, that is either baiting or clear rule breaking. Well you know what, I think you suck and you have sucked for a lot more than 20 pages. I'm assuming that's OK to say cos you said that to me hours ago and I assume nothing was said to you.
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Post by SneakMan on Mar 22, 2023 6:15:11 GMT -5
As the saying goes: a hit dog will holler.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 6:19:43 GMT -5
As the saying goes: a hit dog will holler. Sure does, good one.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 6:28:38 GMT -5
Just playing devil's advocate here but isn't there a years old stickied post on here saying that threads about cornette would not be tolerated. Or is it just OK when it's a certain point of view? Surely if its OK to talk about how everyone who listens to his podcast is a dick and a scummy piece of shit, said scummy pieces of shit like myself should be able to talk to other pieces of shit on here about how we get slandered simply because of what entertainment we choose to consume? I would have assumed the mods would have locked this up as soon as it turned into what it has but here we are. That you are taking a situation where a man’s bigotry and hatred has hurt innocent people and going “but I am the victim here” is genuinely gross and you should be ashamed of yourself. I'll do my best to work on that. Thank you for the constructive criticism.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Mar 22, 2023 6:53:54 GMT -5
Always says Russo and Cornette were two end of the same Horse Shoe, far closer together than they'd love to admit. Yeah... and as I always said Russo is stuck in 1997 while Corney is stuck in at least 1987 if not earlier... To paraphrase the Bowling for Soup song: "And he's still preoccupied, with 19.....19....1985"
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Mar 22, 2023 7:46:35 GMT -5
No one is talking about Jim Cornette outside of the rhetoric that he has spewed about a very real woman who has deleted socials because of it, and other wrestlers have followed suit because of how bad it was, and he is doubling and tripling down along with Brian Last (Who isn't banned) about the situation and they simply keep attacking anyone that moves and somehow, making them and the situation worse than when it even started The original reason the Cornette ban was issued is because multiple threads were made A DAY about different topics on his podcast, and they all ended the same way, people saying "F*** Cornette" and locked, this isn't random, this is a real, developing incident, that has impacted several people At some point you have to stop trying to be like 'I thought we weren't SUPPOSED to talk about him here?" no we weren't allowed to spam his bullshit here when it didn't lead to actual coherent topic and discussion, and wasn't really anything worthwhile to be discussing, it just went in a circle. This is not that, this has everything to do with Riho being verbally abused and bullied online and at shows, and it's because of Jim Cornette and his Podcast/Cult flunkies making ORGANIZED MEETINGS about the subject while Last says he didn't do anything to instigate it while coming up with an "Award" where he sents said cult to attack random people online who don't agree with them This is a way more serious situation than shit's been in the past, that's why the "To be a devil's advocate" on the Mod rule doesn't work here. No mod has said anything about it, if we were going too far, something would have been said long ago, we're 20 pages in and there's still a lot of relevancy to this situation that keeps happening, and that's in large part to Cornette and Last not letting it go So in conclusion... threads fine, f*** Cornette, f*** his cult and that includes the lurkers who are even on FAN, I'm glad you got to see 20 plus pages of people telling you how much you suck, if they want that to continue here's to another 20 pages, and I really hope Riho's ok. So basically you are just saying f*** me and I suck lots and lots. You my friend Are the posterboy for people on this forum for getting away with shit, all the time, that is either baiting or clear rule breaking. Well you know what, I think you suck and you have sucked for a lot more than 20 pages. I'm assuming that's OK to say cos you said that to me hours ago and I assume nothing was said to you. That is a really strange way of saying “yeah, I enjoy listening to Cornette’s podcast, but what he’s encouraging his listeners to do to Riho is reprehensible”. Because, as best I can tell, when he says “f*** his cult” he’s referring to the people who both listen to Cornette AND are totally okay with or encouraging the abuse to Riho. If you only listen to Cornette, but aren’t okay with his treatment of Riho then I don’t think you’re who he was addressing. But if your issue is you wanna be free to treat female wrestlers like shit while hiding behind anonymity then yes, he is talking to you.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 7:53:34 GMT -5
So basically you are just saying f*** me and I suck lots and lots. You my friend Are the posterboy for people on this forum for getting away with shit, all the time, that is either baiting or clear rule breaking. Well you know what, I think you suck and you have sucked for a lot more than 20 pages. I'm assuming that's OK to say cos you said that to me hours ago and I assume nothing was said to you. That is a really strange way of saying “yeah, I enjoy listening to Cornette’s podcast, but what he’s encouraging his listeners to do to Riho is reprehensible”. Because, as best I can tell, when he says “f*** his cult” he’s referring to the people who both listen to Cornette AND are totally okay with or encouraging the abuse to Riho. If you only listen to Cornette, but aren’t okay with his treatment of Riho then I don’t think you’re who he was addressing. But if your issue is you wanna be free to treat female wrestlers like shit while hiding behind anonymity then yes, he is talking to you. Is that who he is referring to though? I don't know, he wasn't specific? Didn't think I'd have to say that I was against online harassment, since this is my whole point here. I also haven't seen any evidence of him actively encouraging people to do it either. Is he the cause of a lot of it? Definitely. Should he be held accountable for others actions? Not in my opinion.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 8:06:40 GMT -5
I’m gonna just repeat what I said the last time this whistle got blown. I don't want to speak for the mods, but I hardly think that the ban on Cornette threads was to provide a dogwhistle for his supporters to blow to shut down relevant threads where his rampant douchebaggery is the clear and obvious source of the issue. I think it was more to prevent constant threads being made about his divisive anti-AEW takes that would inevitably devolve into a shitshow. At this point, I would understand if the mods chose to lock this, but I don’t think it’s because anything that anyone has said violated any rules, it’s just because everything that can be said has been. And no one has slandered Cornette listeners. Truth is an absolute defense to defamation. And all that people have done in this thread is literally post direct quotes from Cornette’s podcast. If that makes you uncomfortable, then maybe it is worth reconsidering the kind of person you’re supporting? Nobody has violated any rules simply because the rules only seem to apply to anyone to one side. It's blatant hypocrisy. And yes lots of people have been slandering listeners. Doesn't make me uncomfortable it's just I've seen people run out of here for having valid opinions (outside of this current topic) because it goes against popular echo chamber rhetoric on here, and I'm sick of some people being able to skirt rules and say whatever the hell they want because it's the popular opinion, while others get immediately shut down and threatened with bannings etc. And now we’re at a point where someone actively championing for Jim friggin’ Cornette is telling me about the echo chamber I’m in… I’ll just bow out with this thought. No one gives one, single, solitary f*** if you don’t like flippy shit and “outlaw mud shows” in your wrestling. Truly. No one could possibly care any less. And if anyone has said anything aggressively hostile to you and others over those types of opinions, and the mods haven’t done anything about it, then you have a point. But I sure haven’t seen that. But if you and others agree with Corny’s homophobic, racist, regressive rhetoric about Japanese women and Kenny Omega, which is what we are specifically talking about here, then you’re a terrible person, you can go f*** yourself, and you need to reconsider what you find entertaining. That’s not slander, but I’d be happy to give you a crash course on what IS slander/libel. “I don’t like Riho because I find it hard to suspend my disbelief that a 98 pound woman could win professional wrestling matches.” - Valid opinion. “I don’t like Riho because she’s only in the position she’s in because Kenny Omega has been grooming her as a sex toy since she was 9.” - Slander (well, really, libel since this time it’s in writing). And, I’m sorry, no one is going to take anything you’re saying seriously when your point is “but you can’t PROVE Cornette listeners are responsible,” when everyone responsible for the harassment is using rhetoric that originated, and is only used on, Cornette’s podcast.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:19:51 GMT -5
Nobody has violated any rules simply because the rules only seem to apply to anyone to one side. It's blatant hypocrisy. And yes lots of people have been slandering listeners. Doesn't make me uncomfortable it's just I've seen people run out of here for having valid opinions (outside of this current topic) because it goes against popular echo chamber rhetoric on here, and I'm sick of some people being able to skirt rules and say whatever the hell they want because it's the popular opinion, while others get immediately shut down and threatened with bannings etc. And now we’re at a point where someone actively championing for Jim friggin’ Cornette is telling me about the echo chamber I’m in… I’ll just bow out with this thought. No one gives one, single, solitary f*** if you don’t like flippy shit and “outlaw mud shows” in your wrestling. Truly. No one could possibly care any less. And if anyone has said anything aggressively hostile to you and others over those types of opinions, and the mods haven’t done anything about it, then you have a point. But I sure haven’t seen that. But if you and others agree with Corny’s homophobic, racist, regressive rhetoric about Japanese women and Kenny Omega, which is what we are specifically talking about here, then you’re a terrible person, you can go f*** yourself, and you need to reconsider what you find entertaining. That’s not slander, but I’d be happy to give you a crash course on what IS slander/libel. “I don’t like Riho because I find it hard to suspend my disbelief that a 98 pound woman could win professional wrestling matches.” - Valid opinion. “I don’t like Riho because she’s only in the position she’s in because Kenny Omega has been grooming her as a sex toy since she was 9.” - Slander. And, I’m sorry, no one is going to take anything you’re saying seriously when your point is “but you can’t PROVE Cornette listeners are responsible,” when everyone responsible for the harassment is using rhetoric that originated, and is only used on, Cornette’s podcast. First off, I never once said that you couldn't prove Cornette listeners are responsible. In fact I said in a previous post they are definitely responsible. My argument here isn't even really about that, but this thread is a perfect example of how it seems to work on here now.it's about how it's seemingly just fine for you to call me a terrible person and tell me to go f*** myself on this forum, things against the rules, and because I'm not in the preferred thinkers group on here, that's just fine. How about this,you have actively just done the same thing to me as the people you hate so much have done to rhio, given me online abuse. I don't condone theirs and I don't condone yours, but lots on here will condone yours is my point, and it absolutely stinks of hypocrisy.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
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Post by khali on Mar 22, 2023 8:27:03 GMT -5
That is a really strange way of saying “yeah, I enjoy listening to Cornette’s podcast, but what he’s encouraging his listeners to do to Riho is reprehensible”. Because, as best I can tell, when he says “f*** his cult” he’s referring to the people who both listen to Cornette AND are totally okay with or encouraging the abuse to Riho. If you only listen to Cornette, but aren’t okay with his treatment of Riho then I don’t think you’re who he was addressing. But if your issue is you wanna be free to treat female wrestlers like shit while hiding behind anonymity then yes, he is talking to you. Is that who he is referring to though? I don't know, he wasn't specific? Didn't think I'd have to say that I was against online harassment, since this is my whole point here. I also haven't seen any evidence of him actively encouraging people to do it either. Is he the cause of a lot of it? Definitely. Should he be held accountable for others actions? Not in my opinion. Okay, so we know you don’t feel he should be held accountable. That’s your opinion, fine. Since you seem to be a listener, what are your thoughts on how Cornette talks about Riho and other Japanese women? Do you consider it wrong when he implies they’re employed as sexual or fetish objects? Genuine question.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:39:45 GMT -5
Is that who he is referring to though? I don't know, he wasn't specific? Didn't think I'd have to say that I was against online harassment, since this is my whole point here. I also haven't seen any evidence of him actively encouraging people to do it either. Is he the cause of a lot of it? Definitely. Should he be held accountable for others actions? Not in my opinion. Okay, so we know you don’t feel he should be held accountable. That’s your opinion, fine. Since you seem to be a listener, what are your thoughts on how Cornette talks about Riho and other Japanese women? Do you consider it wrong when he implies they’re employed as sexual or fetish objects? Genuine question. Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. That said, cornette and what he does and doesn't do isn't really the point of what I'm posting about. It's about how two sides can do the exact same thing and yet only one side is shut down, in this instance with some people actively doing to me what they are so up in arms about in the first place.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 22, 2023 8:44:16 GMT -5
Okay, so we know you don’t feel he should be held accountable. That’s your opinion, fine. Since you seem to be a listener, what are your thoughts on how Cornette talks about Riho and other Japanese women? Do you consider it wrong when he implies they’re employed as sexual or fetish objects? Genuine question. Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. Racism is okay if it's a joke is certainly a take.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 22, 2023 8:46:35 GMT -5
Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. Racism is okay if it's a joke is certainly a take. Hell, even a one off off colour joke would be bad but a years long continual pattern of behaviour which has led to real hurt on the subject...
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