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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:49:46 GMT -5
Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. Racism is okay if it's a joke is certainly a take. Coming up with that as a conclusion after reading the post is certainly a take too.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 8:50:03 GMT -5
And now we’re at a point where someone actively championing for Jim friggin’ Cornette is telling me about the echo chamber I’m in… I’ll just bow out with this thought. No one gives one, single, solitary f*** if you don’t like flippy shit and “outlaw mud shows” in your wrestling. Truly. No one could possibly care any less. And if anyone has said anything aggressively hostile to you and others over those types of opinions, and the mods haven’t done anything about it, then you have a point. But I sure haven’t seen that. But if you and others agree with Corny’s homophobic, racist, regressive rhetoric about Japanese women and Kenny Omega, which is what we are specifically talking about here, then you’re a terrible person, you can go f*** yourself, and you need to reconsider what you find entertaining. That’s not slander, but I’d be happy to give you a crash course on what IS slander/libel. “I don’t like Riho because I find it hard to suspend my disbelief that a 98 pound woman could win professional wrestling matches.” - Valid opinion. “I don’t like Riho because she’s only in the position she’s in because Kenny Omega has been grooming her as a sex toy since she was 9.” - Slander. And, I’m sorry, no one is going to take anything you’re saying seriously when your point is “but you can’t PROVE Cornette listeners are responsible,” when everyone responsible for the harassment is using rhetoric that originated, and is only used on, Cornette’s podcast. First off, I never once said that you couldn't prove Cornette listeners are responsible. In fact I said in a previous post they are definitely responsible. My argument here isn't even really about that, but this thread is a perfect example of how it seems to work on here now.it's about how it's seemingly just fine for you to call me a terrible person and tell me to go f*** myself on this forum, things against the rules, and because I'm not in the preferred thinkers group on here, that's just fine. How about this,you have actively just done the same thing to me as the people you hate so much have done to rhio, given me online abuse. I don't condone theirs and I don't condone yours, but lots on here will condone yours is my point, and it absolutely stinks of hypocrisy. See, I didn’t call you a terrible person unless you agree with Cornette’s bigotry. Since, apparently, you do, I’m going to say this directly. I think you’re a f***ing terrible person who isn’t doing a great job articulating the point you think you’re making. This is not slander. This is my personal opinion on bigots.I’m thankful that most people on here condone the whole “f*** bigots” viewpoint.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,600
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Post by khali on Mar 22, 2023 8:52:47 GMT -5
Okay, so we know you don’t feel he should be held accountable. That’s your opinion, fine. Since you seem to be a listener, what are your thoughts on how Cornette talks about Riho and other Japanese women? Do you consider it wrong when he implies they’re employed as sexual or fetish objects? Genuine question. Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. That said, cornette and what he does and doesn't do isn't really the point of what I'm posting about. It's about how two sides can do the exact same thing and yet only one side is shut down, in this instance with some people actively doing to me what they are so up in arms about in the first place. Oh, they’re jokes? Because I just did a quick search of “Jim Cornette Asuka” and found a Reddit thread and YouTube clip from 2020 where Cornette said he wouldn’t watch Sasha Banks wrestle “another of the interchangeable young Japanese either school girls or kabuki dancers.” His own co-host Brian Last immediately responded “That’s not fair.” They were talking about Io Shirai. Didn’t seem like a joke to me!
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:53:57 GMT -5
First off, I never once said that you couldn't prove Cornette listeners are responsible. In fact I said in a previous post they are definitely responsible. My argument here isn't even really about that, but this thread is a perfect example of how it seems to work on here now.it's about how it's seemingly just fine for you to call me a terrible person and tell me to go f*** myself on this forum, things against the rules, and because I'm not in the preferred thinkers group on here, that's just fine. How about this,you have actively just done the same thing to me as the people you hate so much have done to rhio, given me online abuse. I don't condone theirs and I don't condone yours, but lots on here will condone yours is my point, and it absolutely stinks of hypocrisy. See, I didn’t call you a terrible person unless you agree with Cornette’s bigotry. Since, apparently, you do, I’m going to say this directly. I think you’re a f***ing terrible person who isn’t doing a great job articulating the point you think you’re making. This is not slander. This is my personal opinion on bigots.I’m thankful that most people on here condone the whole “f*** bigots” viewpoint. I think I'm articulating pretty well seeing as how you are helping me make my point. Thank you.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 8:54:19 GMT -5
Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. That said, cornette and what he does and doesn't do isn't really the point of what I'm posting about. It's about how two sides can do the exact same thing and yet only one side is shut down, in this instance with some people actively doing to me what they are so up in arms about in the first place. Oh, they’re jokes? Because I just did a quick search of “Jim Cornette Asuka” and found a Reddit thread and YouTube clip from 2020 where Cornette said he wouldn’t watch Sasha Banks wrestle “another of the interchangeable young Japanese either school girls or kabuki dancers.” His own co-host Brian Last immediately responded “That’s not fair.” They were talking about Io Shirai. Didn’t seem like a joke to me! Come on man, that’s just [podcast] room talk! He obviously wasn’t being serious!
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,713
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 22, 2023 8:54:50 GMT -5
Racism is okay if it's a joke is certainly a take. Coming up with that as a conclusion after reading the post is certainly a take too. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not.Isn't that what this says? The racism is a joke. Being offended is optional. If you're not offended, you think it's okay. Where did I go wrong?
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:56:39 GMT -5
Genuine answer. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not. If on an upcoming podcast came out and said blatant racial slurs against Japanese women, that would clearly be unacceptable and it would make me reconsider listening, but he won't because in context he doesn't do half the things he is accused of. That said, cornette and what he does and doesn't do isn't really the point of what I'm posting about. It's about how two sides can do the exact same thing and yet only one side is shut down, in this instance with some people actively doing to me what they are so up in arms about in the first place. Oh, they’re jokes? Because I just did a quick search of “Jim Cornette Asuka” and found a Reddit thread and YouTube clip from 2020 where Cornette said he wouldn’t watch Sasha Banks wrestle “another of the interchangeable young Japanese either school girls or kabuki dancers.” His own co-host Brian Last immediately responded “That’s not fair.” They were talking about Io Shirai. Didn’t seem like a joke to me! Totally different subject, totally different context, examples aren't comparable. So, again, genuine question, is it the addition of the school girl comparison what makes it racist?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Mar 22, 2023 8:56:51 GMT -5
And we are now seeing why Cornette threads always get locked.
Again if you enjoy listening to Cornette whatever, but when there are years worth of not so veiled racism I don't understand the need to vehemently defend someone
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 8:58:28 GMT -5
Coming up with that as a conclusion after reading the post is certainly a take too. Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not.Isn't that what this says? The racism is a joke. Being offended is optional. If you're not offended, you think it's okay. Where did I go wrong? How is it racist? He's talking about how they are so bad a wrestling the only way they could get booked is if this unbelievable scenario was playing out. Nothing to do with race.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 8:58:34 GMT -5
See, I didn’t call you a terrible person unless you agree with Cornette’s bigotry. Since, apparently, you do, I’m going to say this directly. I think you’re a f***ing terrible person who isn’t doing a great job articulating the point you think you’re making. This is not slander. This is my personal opinion on bigots.I’m thankful that most people on here condone the whole “f*** bigots” viewpoint. I think I'm articulating pretty well seeing as how you are helping me make my point. Thank you. Ok, I'm going to need some help here, because obviously my feeble mind can't comprehend your point. What I think your point is, is that you feel that this forum is inconsistently moderated and people who express a certain, more widely accepted opinion, get away with personal attacks and insults, while people who express what you consider the minority opinion face negative consequences for anything they say. The exchange we just had was me saying " if you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, then I think you're a terrible person." But, if you just align with Cornette's "old school views" on wrestling, and someone personally insults you for that, then I agree, that shouldn't fly. Your response was to say "you just called me a terrible person without consequence! Ha!!!! I PROVED IT!!!!!" Seems like the only thing I've proven is that you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, because I only said that I think that people who agree with them are terrible. Your mask is really coming off here, man.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,084
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 22, 2023 9:01:40 GMT -5
Oh, they’re jokes? Because I just did a quick search of “Jim Cornette Asuka” and found a Reddit thread and YouTube clip from 2020 where Cornette said he wouldn’t watch Sasha Banks wrestle “another of the interchangeable young Japanese either school girls or kabuki dancers.” His own co-host Brian Last immediately responded “That’s not fair.” They were talking about Io Shirai. Didn’t seem like a joke to me! Totally different subject, totally different context, examples aren't comparable. So, again, genuine question, is it the addition of the school girl comparison what makes it racist? Genuine answer, yes, it's a part of it, if they're seeing all Japanese female wrestlers as "school girls", characters as different as Riho, Io, freaking ASUKA then they're placing all wrestlers of a certain ethnicity into a box based purely on their gender and race, that is pretty much a dictionary definition.
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,600
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Post by khali on Mar 22, 2023 9:02:19 GMT -5
Oh, they’re jokes? Because I just did a quick search of “Jim Cornette Asuka” and found a Reddit thread and YouTube clip from 2020 where Cornette said he wouldn’t watch Sasha Banks wrestle “another of the interchangeable young Japanese either school girls or kabuki dancers.” His own co-host Brian Last immediately responded “That’s not fair.” They were talking about Io Shirai. Didn’t seem like a joke to me! Totally different subject, totally different context, examples aren't comparable. So, again, genuine question, is it the addition of the school girl comparison what makes it racist? He said he wouldn’t watch Io Shirai wrestle because she allegedly fits into one of two stereotypes he specifically mentioned. His co-host said it was unfair and she didn’t fit into those stereotypes.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 9:04:43 GMT -5
I think I'm articulating pretty well seeing as how you are helping me make my point. Thank you. Ok, I'm going to need some help here, because obviously my feeble mind can't comprehend your point. What I think your point is, is that you feel that this forum is inconsistently moderated and people who express a certain, more widely accepted opinion, get away with personal attacks and insults, while people who express what you consider the minority opinion face negative consequences for anything they say. The exchange we just had was me saying " if you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, then I think you're a terrible person." But, if you just align with Cornette's "old school views" on wrestling, and someone personally insults you for that, then I agree, that shouldn't fly. Your response was to say "you just called me a terrible person without consequence! Ha!!!! I PROVED IT!!!!!" Seems like the only thing I've proven is that you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, because I only said that I think that people who agree with them are terrible. Your mask is really coming off here, man. Yeah you pretty much nailed it, apart from the linguistic semantics that people use to get round these things and then claim they have proved that someone is an ist or a phobe.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 9:07:24 GMT -5
And we are now seeing why Cornette threads always get locked. Again if you enjoy listening to Cornette whatever, but when there are years worth of not so veiled racism I don't understand the need to vehemently defend someone This thread is definitely on its last legs, but "the need" to vehemently defend him is borne out of the desire to play the victim. Cornette and his listeners thrive on creating situations where they can act like they're being oppressed and subjugated just because they have a "different" opinion that isn't "mainstream." When, in reality, no one cares about their wrestling opinions, most people just don't care for the 1980s bigotry. Ironically, Cornette has developed such a dedicated fanbase and made his podcasting fortune taking every single possible page out of the playbook of a certain person he claims to despise.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,713
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 22, 2023 9:08:40 GMT -5
Specifically regarding that example, the implications are quite clearly jokes. Up to you if you are offended by it or not.Isn't that what this says? The racism is a joke. Being offended is optional. If you're not offended, you think it's okay. Where did I go wrong? How is it racist? He's talking about how they are so bad a wrestling the only way they could get booked is if this unbelievable scenario was playing out. Nothing to do with race. Calling an entire race bad at wrestling isn't racist? Calling them all schoolgirls isn't racist? Swap out 'Japanese' for another minority group and see if you still think it isn't racist. Cornette is playing on long-held racist stereotypes that say that Japanese women are subservient, little girls. There's a reason he's saying this about Riho and not about any of the white wrestlers.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2023 9:09:24 GMT -5
Ok, I'm going to need some help here, because obviously my feeble mind can't comprehend your point. What I think your point is, is that you feel that this forum is inconsistently moderated and people who express a certain, more widely accepted opinion, get away with personal attacks and insults, while people who express what you consider the minority opinion face negative consequences for anything they say. The exchange we just had was me saying " if you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, then I think you're a terrible person." But, if you just align with Cornette's "old school views" on wrestling, and someone personally insults you for that, then I agree, that shouldn't fly. Your response was to say "you just called me a terrible person without consequence! Ha!!!! I PROVED IT!!!!!" Seems like the only thing I've proven is that you agree with Cornette's bigoted takes, because I only said that I think that people who agree with them are terrible. Your mask is really coming off here, man. Yeah you pretty much nailed it, apart from the linguistic semantics that people use to get round these things and then claim they have proved that someone is an ist or a phobe. Buddy, it doesn't take any linguistic semantics to figure out the implication of you responding to me saying "if you agree with Cornette's isms and phobes, then I think you're terrible" with "you called me terrible." That's pretty straightforward.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Mar 22, 2023 9:09:47 GMT -5
Totally different subject, totally different context, examples aren't comparable. So, again, genuine question, is it the addition of the school girl comparison what makes it racist? He said he wouldn’t watch Io Shirai wrestle because she allegedly fits into one of two stereotypes he specifically mentioned. His co-host said it was unfair and she didn’t fit into those stereotypes. Yeah that was a bad take.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 9:12:52 GMT -5
Hopefully this thread will finish before it quickly goes up to 54.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,589
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 22, 2023 9:13:14 GMT -5
I'd like to hear "Mike's mild takes" - a podcast by Mike Bennett.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2023 9:13:55 GMT -5
I'll always be of the belief that heels should look for any line that's too taboo to cross, then sprint across it and never look back. Because the worse the heel is, the more satisfying it is when they get their comeuppance.
The problem is that Cornette is no longer an active performer, and he can't be in a situation where a babyface gets a huge rub from putting him in his place. He's no longer a manager who shoots his mouth off until someone shuts it for him, he's exactly what he says he is - a cult leader, and one that is a cancer on the artform of pro wrestling.
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